Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Lrfox said:
*edit*
I should be clear, I'm not arguing that the current proposal is the solution to all of those problems. The current proposal is crippled to the point where its effectiveness is in serious jeopardy. My argument is more in favor of a theoretical rail connection to the region. One that's double tracked with increased headways. That's what South Coast Rail needs to be effective.
Click to expand...

I think everyone is pretty much in agreement here. The south coast needs investment. The south coast should get a few billion in transit money. The south coast should get rail service.

BUT, not from this project. For anyone who's followed the whole rail tunnels across the Hudson saga, this boondoggle reminds me of that. Another set of tunnels is desperately needed from NJ to NY, that is a well known fact. The ARC project was going to solve that, and even began construction. But it was a fatally flawed project that dead ended off to the side of penn station and would only be used by NJ Transit. It was thankfully canceled, and now is coming back as Gateway, which allows Amtrak and NJT to use it and also connects to the thru tracks.

This project needs a comprehensive review and to go back to the drawing board.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I want the South Coast to flourish and receive its fair share of investment. I cannot emphasize enough that South Coast Rail will not help the region. The only parties benefiting from South Coast Rail are the consultants sucking up the money. And once that $2.3 billion is flushed, you won't see a dime for another generation. Another Greenbush debacle (except worse) is exactly what we're trying to prevent here.

When you factor in fuel, parking, maintenance on the car and traffic, a 75 minute one-seat ride with wifi, coffee and room is a pretty appealing option.
Click to expand...

The only credible simulation in the FEIR actually puts this number closer to a 85 minute one-seat ride. And that's assuming signal delays don't make it worse.

What I DO see is the opportunity for utilizing SCR as a heavy inner-zone service
Click to expand...
The branches are on single tracks mostly. And since the trains have to go all the way to South Station and back, they have to deal with the worst contention over the single track trunk through Taunton.

South Coast Rail will not work well for local travel. The schedules will most certainly not support it. There's going to have to be very crazy games played just to make all the single-tracking possible. As I said earlier, American Commuter Rail only does one thing, and that's parking lot-to-CBD for 9-5 workers. Any other kind of use is taking chances. Even in big places like NYC, the LIRR, MN and NJTransit all have this same kind of problem. It's an even bigger missed opportunity there, but that's how American Commuter Rail works. Or rather, doesn't work.

Please, listen to transit advocates like us. I support transit and expansion of all kinds, generally. But when I see something that is designed so horribly, I feel obligated to let you know that you are being played by corrupt forces. There are so many better ways to invest in the South Coast. SCR is not an investment, it's a failure in the making that will drag everyone down.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

If you cannot read and discuss the official South Coast Rail Final Environmental Impact Report in order to make a case for supporting the project, then you are not contributing anything but heated emotions.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

djimpact1 said:
Well, that was a quick come-and-go for me on this site. I thought this would be a forum where folks could eloquently exchange ideas and talk in a respectful manner to each other (yes, you can do that while pointing out pros AND cons), but it seems no different than any "my opinion is better than yours because I read xxx data" site on the internet...it reads no different than those participating in the government which most express their anger against.

Hope the open-minded few on here keep their head grounded. Take care.
Click to expand...

Don't take it personally DJ... you came in on the unpopular side of a highly opinionated debate - probably the most vociferously argued one on the forum right now (other threads are far more civil, I promise)

The reason that this issue gets some people's blood boiling has nothing to do with disrespect for the south coast. What it really comes down to is that there's a lot at stake here: when an escalating number of billions of dollars is spent on a transit solution that may not solve much of anything, we risk Big Dig syndrome at the state level - no more transit investment at the mega-project scale. Can those billions be spent more effectively on the south coast? Ignore for a second those who are saying to spend that money in Boston. If you tell me that, first and foremost, the region needs a train to Boston, then I will not argue. But before you say that's the case, keep in mind the studies themselves show a minimal impact relative to the investment and I think it's clear that a higher ROI and impact for the region itself could be achieved with a very different type of scheme. The debate isn't about whether the south coast "deserves" a train or not. It's about how we spend billions of dollars in a way that everyone can and will agree: That Was Money Well Spent.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Personally, and despite the obvious trauma it would cause, I think it may be time to start with some serious eminent domain to create NEW overland commuter rail/heavy rail/light rail routes that actually go through the population bases, rather than relying on old routes that aren't convenient. Applied to SCR, why not double track the whole route? Would probably cost another billion, but if we're going to waste money, might as get it done the right way.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

SCR is using old routes that go through populated regions. There are sections of track that must be upgraded to passenger standards. And there are sections that are empty rights-of-way that must be reactivated and rebuilt entirely.

The reason why they are not double tracking all of it is due to community opposition from the surrounding populations of the existing right-of-way. In particular, there are about 15 miles worth of single tracking from Easton Village through Weir Junction with only two passing sections*. This section occurs on the trunk of the route, passing through Taunton, where contention will be the worst.

Overall,
Infrastructure improvements for the Stoughton Alternative also includes constructing,
reconstructing, or widening 40 bridges and constructing or reconstructing 46 railroad at grade crossings.
Click to expand...

I don't remember off-hand how many of those 46 railroad at grade crossings are within Taunton itself, but as you can imagine, the idea of reactivating those crossings with only 38 trips per day is already causing NIMBYs to freak out. Doing more frequent service is an uphill battle -- although I agree with you that double-tracking and creating properly frequent service would be significantly better.

On the other hand, properly frequent service would cause significant traffic problems on the Northeast Corridor. The RAILSIM analysis decided that the Stoughton alternative was acceptable but mainly because it piggy-backs on the existing Stoughton branch. The Attleboro alternative represented adding traffic equivalent to an entirely new branch on the NEC and the projections were absolutely nightmarish. In fact, the analysts reported that the number of conflicts was so high for the Attleboro alternative it caused the RAILSIM software to crash.


*To be completely clear here, there are 10 miles of single tracking and 5.9 miles of double track sections for a total of 15.9 miles between Stoughton station and Weir Junction. Much of the double tracking comes around Stoughton station up until Easton Village. Between Easton Village and Weir Junction there are only two opportunities for passing. In particular, there are no opportunities for passing on the long segment between Easton Village and Raynham Park, in other words, the portion of the line that is contained within Easton.

Everything between Stoughton Station and Weir Junction is currently empty right-of-way and is being built from scratch, essentially. They are creating new at grade crossings, hence the NIMBY freak out.
 
Last edited:
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

What do you think they would have found if instead of the SCR program, they were proposing an extension from Acton to Fitchburg? Would that be justified today? That Fitchburg/Leominster has a smaller population than the South Coast by far but the demographics are similar. For many years, the travel time wasn't so different.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Semass said:
What do you think they would have found if instead of the SCR program, they were proposing an extension from Acton to Fitchburg? Would that be justified today? That Fitchburg/Leominster has a smaller population than the South Coast by far but the demographics are similar. For many years, the travel time wasn't so different.
Click to expand...

Does it matter?

It seems better to learn from mistakes (like Greenbush & the Big Dig) rather than to repeat them out of some sense of karmic or political balance.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Semass said:
What do you think they would have found if instead of the SCR program, they were proposing an extension from Acton to Fitchburg? Would that be justified today? That Fitchburg/Leominster has a smaller population than the South Coast by far but the demographics are similar. For many years, the travel time wasn't so different.
Click to expand...

The difference is that Acton to Fitchberg is one branch going over some single track sections, but SCR is trying to be two branches going over single track.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

What do you think they would have found if instead of the SCR program, they were proposing an extension from Acton to Fitchburg? Would that be justified today?
Click to expand...

I would need to a see a cost/benefit analysis. Are you saying an extension from Acton to Fitchburg for the same horrific cost/benefit ratio of $2.3 billion for 4,500 riders?
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Semass said:
What do you think they would have found if instead of the SCR program, they were proposing an extension from Acton to Fitchburg? Would that be justified today? That Fitchburg/Leominster has a smaller population than the South Coast by far but the demographics are similar. For many years, the travel time wasn't so different.
Click to expand...

They were reinstating a service that had been dormant for 15 years rather than 63+ years (by the time South Coast Rail is reinstated).

Also, it was a 13 mile extension, rather than a (33?) mile extension.

Also, they used existing, in-use freight track and old stations and didn't build out anything elaborate from the start. Heck, only now, after ridership has been established, are they investing serious money in that line.

So, if they were doing exactly what they did with the Fitchburg Line, I would be 100% in favor.

For the record, I would be fine pouring money into incremental SCR, and Fall River-Providence commuter rail.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Fall River-Providence commuter rail would be an even worse investment than South Coast rail. It's much too short of a trip for more than a small minority of the commuting population to make use of it regularly.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

kmp1284 said:
Fall River-Providence commuter rail would be an even worse investment than South Coast rail. It's much too short of a trip for more than a small minority of the commuting population to make use of it regularly.
Click to expand...

Not to mention, traffic along 195 isn't nearly the deterrent that traffic along the 24/93 corridor is. Providence isn't exactly a bastion of employment opportunities either. Given the infrastructure investment needed to make that happen, it's a ridiculous proposal. An agreement between RIPTA and SRTA for a transfer stop somewhere around the state line would be a much cheaper and equally effective solution.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

kmp1284 said:
Fall River-Providence commuter rail would be an even worse investment than South Coast rail. It's much too short of a trip for more than a small minority of the commuting population to make use of it regularly.
Click to expand...

Yes, but for what's left of the 2B you could hand out Acela tickets to every boston-bound south coast passenger transferring at providence station for 100 years and still have enough money left to bring the MBTA CR to Taunton
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

First contract awarded: http://blog.mass.gov/transportation/mbta/south-coast-rail-project-contract-approved/

The 10-year contract for Program and Construction Management with Vanasse Hangen Brustlin (VHB)/HNTB Corporation awards $12 million in first year funding to begin program management, early design development, and environmental permitting, with additional awards in succeeding years up to the contract limit of $210 million.

South Coast Rail will provide commuter service from New Bedford and Fall River to Boston South Station using the Northeast Corridor, Stoughton Commuter Rail Line, New Bedford Main Line and Fall River Secondary Line. The proposed service would be an electrified commuter rail system extending from Canton Junction to New Bedford and Fall River.

Wednesday’s South Coast Rail Program Management contract approval builds on numerous prior investments supporting the project, including:

• Installation of approximately 42,000 rail ties and spikes beginning in 2013 along 33 miles of right-of-way leading to Fall River and New Bedford.
• The Commonwealth’s purchase of 30 miles of track, Taunton to Fall River and New Bedford, from CSX Transportation.
• Rebuilding of three New Bedford rail bridges funded by a $20 million federal TIGER grant.
• South Coast Rail Economic Development and Land Use Corridor Plan strategic investments assisting 31 Corridor communities in preparing for passenger rail through sustainable development and appropriate land use.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I had to blink when I read that too.

South Coast Rail would provide commuter service from Fall River and New Bedford to South Station. The route would be through Stoughton, and the service proposed would use electric trains from Canton Junction to Fall River and New Bedford.
The route to South Station from Fall River would be 52.7 miles and is projected to take 75 minutes, while New Bedford’s would be 55 miles and potentially 77 minutes.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Wasn't via stoughton what f line proposed. Likely this will come in phases just for practical purposes which would hopefully phase demand. Also we are a way off from full electric
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Not to mention that the quoted times were only good for the double tracked version.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

stellarfun said:
I had to blink when I read that too.
Click to expand...

So, given that the Stoughton-Boston segment isn't electrified (and the CIP has no appropriations to electrify it), the press release is implying dual mode? Will they have to switch locomotives at Canton? Can they run the trains via Fairmount, electrify that, and buy EMUs for the Indigo Line? Did a summer intern managing the MassDOT blog mess up the post?

So many intriguing questions!
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

How is the design contract for this worth $210M???? Aren't design contracts typically 5-8% of budget. So should we now expect this boondoggle to cost $4B?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top