Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

[lexicon506]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Whoa! Lots of responses! Being an SCR booster is fun

As a clarification, I'm not saying that $2 billion must be spent on this project. There are obvious flaws. I'm just against the general feeling that the South Coast isn't worth $2 billion in investment period.

And you assert this based on...facts you quote directly from memory? Access to places on the NEC might be better...it certainly is for Springfield and has been for Amtrak Virginia (where once a day trains on the NEC have been well-patronized and cash-positive.)

All I'm saying is that connectivity to the closest economic powerhouse is critical for these small/mid-size cities. So yes, access to Washington, DC is important for Lynchburg, VA, as is access to Hartford/New Haven for Springfield (another city that should have more rail options to Boston, but that's a different story...). Do I really have to cite something to prove that?

Connecting NB/FR to Providence would be a start, but from what I've gathered, that's also a complex project and would face direct competition from I-195.

Tourism and hospitality does not get stimulated by commuter rail. Name a post-industrial place, anywhere in North America, that was not a tourist destination that turned itself into one with commuter rail.

You're right, it's very hard to prove that. But it's hard to prove the opposite as well. Rail expansion in America is still pretty rare, so there simply aren't many case studies... Cape Cod and the Hamptons are extremely well-established tourist destinations, of course most transportation options will be successful. But I can't imagine Gloucester and Cape Ann would be too happy if the Rockport branch were discontinued.

So NB/FRs poor, unwashed masses are not going to be riding the train. Even if they were, where are these jobs in Boston? Brockton and Lynn are both shitholes, and they have pretty great rail access, and are one hell of a lot closer to Boston to boot. They have real bus networks and walkable downtown stations as well.

The South Coast, especially NB, has incredible potential. It's a historic fishing and whaling port, has some beautiful downtown blocks, an under appreciated waterfront, and is a potential stop on the Cape Cod-Newport, RI tourist corridor. In other words, it's got a lot more going for it than Brockton. I think neglecting it is an even greater waste of resources than dropping $2 billion on it. Based on your very sensible proposal to spend $2 billion on a more gradual expansion of service to NB/FR, I'm assuming you agree.

People going there for the day are going to continue doing what they currently do: drive.

And the rest of us?

 

[FK4]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The bottom line remains that not only is the project as is a waste of money, but that the solution to FR and NB's woes is not a commuter rail to Boston. They're just too far. They're not even metro-Boston. The South Coast is its own thing, and yeah, it is somewhat proximal to Boston but overall it is definitely more linked to Providence. In an ideal world, with billions to spend, a light rail or some rail link would connect these cities to Providence. Even if money weren't an issue, I still think that would be a bigger boost - connecting all those towns on the South Coast together, which would be MUCH more convenient for workers - than connecting a few more people to Boston. At least then you might actually capitalize on tourism, since you could link the resort towns like Marion and Mattepoisett to the grittier ones.

But the Boston CR idea is not a good expenditure of money, and it wouldn't be a good use of funds even if it only a quarter of that 2 billion. The South Coast could get much better projects with that. How about a beautification campaign, that might actually attract tourists or make people want to come back? Bringing the actual Quequechan River falls back above ground?

And even if that money was sunk into Boston, jobs in Boston mean tax revenue for the whole state, so I would disagree that spending 2 more billion on Boston-centric transit projects would not benefit the SC.

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Rail expansion in America is still pretty rare, so there simply aren't many case studies... Cape Cod and the Hamptons are extremely well-established tourist destinations, of course most transportation options will be successful. But I can't imagine Gloucester and Cape Ann would be too happy if the Rockport branch were discontinued.

If you want $3b, its incumbent on you to prove your statements, not just challenge us to disprove them. And frankly, the utter lack of commuter rail tourism *is* disproof of the preposterous notion that commuter rail will bring tourists/leisure travel to town

And the rest of us?

Show that you're willing to go to FR/NB by the equivalent of the Hampton Jitney before we light our 3 billion dollars on fire.

Pushing 300k per rider, its cheaper to have a lottery and award 10,000 lucky south coasters a free condo in Quincy (at least we'd be spared the operating losses).

 

[Matthew]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The problem, lexicon, is that you think SCR is going to be an amazing connection. It is not.

American Commuter Railroads SUCK at everything else except for one task: getting 9-5 workers from parking lot to CBD and back. And they're only mediocre at that.

Tourists do not want a train that only runs once every 2 hours during the rest of the day. Frequency is king.

People without a car would be better served by a bus that left every 15 minutes from Boston. You could pay for centuries of that kind of service with $2 billion.

The train will take about 1:21 to 1:29 minutes according to current simulations. If it only leaves every two hours, then your average trip time is 2:21 to 2:29 unless you plan in advance. And even if you plan in advance, you have to make all your other plans based around the fact that the train only leaves once every two hours.

American Commuter Rail is not going to bring your hoped for "rail based nirvana". It is a pathetic service.

I don't mind investment in the region. Heck, MassDOT is going to put $600 million into that district, IIRC. And if you are going to put another $2 billion into the South Coast, then let's do it smart, instead of throwing it away on something THAT WILL NEVER HELP YOU.

This is the main point, really: South Coast Rail IS NOT GOING TO HELP THE SOUTH COAST. It's going to fail miserably. It's as obvious as day. It's going to be a feeding frenzy for consultants and that's about it.

If you really care about the South Coast then you'll find a way to stop the madness, the consultants sucking up all the money, and get that taxpayer money put to something that would actually help the region.

 

[bigeman312]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Remind me, why isn't this being viewed as an intercity rail project?

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Lexicon - Living in Berlin heavily jaded my opinion on public transit for a while too. In fact, it lead me to rent an apartment in Chelsea off the 116/117 because I was thinking "oh it's on a bus route - it will be a fine commute like the MetroBus was in Berlin." No. Not in the slightest.

Similarly, The MBCR is not DeutscheBahn Regionalverkehr. Commuter Rail (unfortunately) plays a much smaller role in the US - it is only for 9-5 jobs and sporting events. Structurally the system itself needs to change before a major expansion like this can happen.

I am originally from Freetown and was a huge proponent of this project but seeing the budget spiral out of control over the years and reading the analyses, I'm not convinced this is the right time.

 

[kmp1284]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that this would be dead if people knew how far the proposed costs have spiraled over just the last five years.

 

[cozzyd]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

As far as I understand, one of the biggest problems with SCR is the branching destroying the headways. One potential solution I posted earlier would be to serve NB as an extension of Middleborough (either reverse move or loop there, or relocate the station before the Wye?) and FR through Taunton. They would meet near the Rt 24/140 intersection where a park and ride at that mall could have doubled frequencies.

Another solution I wanted to sketch out is serving FR through NB (the inverse is not possible without a lot more work). While this isn't optimal for FR (or NB, since the stop wouldn't be downtown), it wouldn't take THAT much longer and has the advantage of serving U Mass Dartmouth (with a shuttle) and connecting the two cities. To make up for the stop not being near downtown NB, a light rail corridor could eventually be built.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=z6_kdT6WZbbY.kCzskEIfV70I

I chose the Attleboro routing since I think it would be nice if trains to Providence could eventually run, but any of the other routings could work too.

 

[Matthew]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The Attleboro alternative was utterly ripped to shreds by RAILSIM, by the way.

 

[lexicon506]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

If you want $3b, its incumbent on you to prove your statements, not just challenge us to disprove them. And frankly, the utter lack of commuter rail tourism *is* disproof of the preposterous notion that commuter rail will bring tourists/leisure travel to town

What's so "preposterous" about a commuter rail carrying tourists? There would have to be a concerted effort by the South Coast chambers to market the train and NB/FR as a tourist destination, as well as a schedule that's amenable to more than just 9-5 commuters. SCR as currently planned won't allow that, which is a major problem, but the idea of using a train to stimulate tourism doesn't seem so far-fetched. Perhaps calling it a commuter rail is simply the wrong approach.

American Commuter Railroads SUCK at everything else except for one task: getting 9-5 workers from parking lot to CBD and back. And they're only mediocre at that.

Point taken. I still think rail needs to be part of the solution for the South Coast. Why does this have to be a commuter rail? Restore the tracks, run a seasonal NewportFLYER from Boston via NB and FR, run buses for the commuting population until sufficient demand for commuter rail evolves.

My problem with using solely buses and park-n-rides, as has been suggested, is that it only addresses the debatable issue of connecting South Coast workers to Boston jobs. Tourism needs to be major part of the region's future, and right now the area has the assets but not the access. This isn't the Hamptons. I'm not taking a bus, you're not taking a bus. A convenient train link, with the added cache of Newport, however...

Lexicon - Living in Berlin heavily jaded my opinion on public transit for a while too.

Alas, you're probably right. Why can't we have nice things?

 

[davem]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Honestly, if the cost included going all the way to Newport the project might have more hope.

 

[djimpact1]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

First time poster, long time lurker (so be easy on me folks...put the SCR pitchforks down)...

I've lived in Taunton for 8 years & Fall River for 4 years (from '06 - '10). I moved to Weymouth 4 years ago to buy out a family house with my wife & "set up shop". I've always been a "South Coast" boy at heart (though that's not to say I haven't been taking the T to Boston for 15+ years for my own amusement).

I very much enjoyed Fall River & New Bedford during the numerous times I drove there, even prior to living in FR. It was clear FR was "rough around the edges" when I initially moved to the city, but that wasn't a deterrent. Rather, I saw it as a chance to be witness to a region-wide change. You can't do anything but rise to the top after you've hit rock-bottom, and FR/parts of NB have been rock-bottom for years.

The reality is, FR has been/is undergoing improvements (some minor, but improvements nonetheless) to its community landscape. The former Regatta (aka "Regretta") is slated to re-open as a new restaurant, while the crumbling Route 79 deck (coincidentally) has been removed as part of a major downtown traffic improvement project. The paint-stripped Braga Bridge has been undergoing major renovations for the past few years, while the new Veterans Memorial Bridge (leading into Somerset/Swansea/etc.) replaced the nearly unusuable old Brightman Street Bridge. Al Mac's diner went from a closed city landmark to a reopened & rejuvenated place for a quality meal. Jerry Remy's opened right near (a personal favorite) respectable Bicentennial Park. The SRTA has opened a new primary bus facility while making overall service improvements to schedules...these are all positive steps in the right direction for FR, but why point all this out when it's so easy/cool to cr*p all over the city?! (Oh, by the way, the Old Colony RR Museum, city carousel, boardwalk to Bicentennial Park, Marine Museum & some dining options are all within walking distance from where the Fall River CR station would be, so don't tell me there aren't attractions nearby to supplement a trip down there).

My point: these are not moves, whether through state investment or individual business owners, that are reflective of a still-stagnant city, but rather moves of a city that is finally looking to rise to the top after being at rock-bottom for years. Of course there's still drug problems, but to that point, there's problems in EVERY town/city. Taunton/FR/Quincy/Weymouth all have heroin issues and it's well-known. But for those stories, there are always the former prostitution rings in Wellesley that were kept hush-hush...no city is exempt from problems, and therefore, no city should have potential improvements fall to the wayside due to it, especially infrastructure improvements. Of course it's easy for North Shorers to say "why bother" when the "gettin' is good" up here, but I guarantee if the shoe was on the other foot, you wouldn't want opportunities for your area to be passed over because times were tough, like it was for so long with Fall River. That's a very hollow viewpoint when thinking of long-term benefits for a city.

Now, do I think SCR in its current form is perfect? Absolutely not. In the same breath, do I think the South Coast region doesn't deserve this? Again, absolutely not. I think the main problem is that many are promoting this as an opportunity for the workforce to commute to Boston. From my observations, most of the South Coast workforce heads north to Taunton & heads south to Providence, so saying this is for Boston commuting seems very inaccurate.

What I DO see is the opportunity for utilizing SCR as a heavy inner-zone service...by that, I think keeping service heavier between New Bedford, Fall River & Taunton would be very smart to do, as these are communities that "interact" with each other much more on a daily basis than they do with Boston. I'd like to think that South Coast service up to Taunton would benefit to have its own schedule (treat it like rapid transit), while rail from Taunton to Boston should have its own schedule. Though this may lead to some inconvenient transfers (depending on timing), have a shuttle run from the Taunton CR station to the Bloom bus terminal & the Silver City Galleria. This allows transfers to Bloom & Dattco buses (respectively), which travel to Boston. This would allow New Bedford/Fall River commuters to wait at the Taunton CR station for a Boston-Taunton train to arrive, while allowing alternative transfers to bus connections to Boston.

Yes, $2+ billion is a LOT for us to take on. Maybe the pending ridership doesn't justify the cost of it...did it for the Greenbush Line? No, and yet, it still operates every weekday (yes I know, cost was different). The MBTA did its part...it's up to Weymouth & Quincy to start making moves like Fall River has been doing the past couple of years & have the service compliment the opportunities each city can put forth. Otherwise, it's just a train passing through with no incentive to "stop & smell the roses". With SCR, I see the opposite...Fall River (& some of New Bedford) has been making positive moves for the past few years. Rail service can pass through, and allow inter-city commuting options among cities that are doing a 180 turn-around. That my friends, is when I want to get off the train to stop & smell the roses.

 

[fattony]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

People will ride a CR train from Fall river to Taunton?!? In greater numbers than into Boston?

Repeat that to yourself inserting the names of cities that already have CR and that you don't have an emotional connection to and you'll realize how completely laughable it is.

"People take CR from Haverhill to Andover"

"People take CR from Worcester to Framingham"

See? I'm sorry an area you are emotionally connected to is being sold a polished turd, but you don't have to try to buff it.

P.S. Welcome to the board. Sorry I had to jump down your throat on your first post.

 

[bigeman312]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

...I think the main problem is that many are promoting this as an opportunity for the workforce to commute to Boston. From my observations, most of the South Coast workforce heads north to Taunton & heads south to Providence, so saying this is for Boston commuting seems very inaccurate...

I think this is the main point. We are building something that is very expensive and won't be utilized. We are building infrastructure that will mostly just benefit weekday commuters from the South Coast to Boston, when as you say, those people do not exist. So I ask again:

Why isn't this being viewed as an intercity rail project? Similar to the Downeaster or the CapeFlyer, or what they could be doing with improved service Boston-Springfield or Capital Corridor rail service to NH, these projects seem to be successful because they are incremental and cater to existing trips being made.

I guarantee that if rail service to Portland or Cape Cod were viewed as 'all-or-nothing' commuter rail service from the start, they would have both been miserable failures.

The fact is, people aren't commuting from the South Coast to Boston, so why build extremely expensive Commuter Rail extensions that will fail.

The fact is, the South Coast is a region deserving of better connectivity and intercity rail service, so why not build incremental intercity rail service that has proven successful elsewhere?

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Yes, $2+ billion is a LOT for us to take on. Maybe the pending ridership doesn't justify the cost of it...did it for the Greenbush Line? No, and yet, it still operates every weekday (yes I know, cost was different).

Greenbush's net-new ridership is 1/5th the forecast (most of its riders were stolen from the Ferry, not coaxed out of cars). Any sane analysis would conclude that those rails and (empty) trains should have been run to Middleboro, where they would actually have gotten used--and created synergies (higher frequencies attract even more ridership).

The lesson from Greenbush is not that every town is entitled to screw the state by demanding a train that nobody, in fact, rides.

Rather the lesson is: Never again.

(frankly, this is why Greenbush's tracks should be allowed to sit empty and its trains should be diverted 100% to Middleboro even at this late date, rather than give people the wrong impression about it being normal to build and run CR that people don't use). We starve Middleboro to shower service on an ungrateful Greenbush. That is so, so wrong.

 

[djimpact1]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

People will ride a CR train from Fall river to Taunton?!? In greater numbers than into Boston?

Yes fattony, many would. Boston might be the focal point of the North & South Shore, but is not necessarily that to those living in Taunton/Fall River/New Bedford/South Coast areas (as much as, believe it or not, Providence is).

SCR would allow me the option to take a train close to work (& have a co-worker pick me up 5 minutes away). The stations I'd take...Route 128 to Raynham Station, not even touching Boston. That's not a "laughable" option to me.

It's ridiculous to infer Boston is the end-all be-all of all Massachusetts communities...more specifically, of their transit needs. It's attitudes like that which help me understand why many South Coasters were never quick to jump on the "Boston bandwagon".

Repeat that to yourself inserting the names of cities that already have CR and that you don't have an emotional connection to and you'll realize how completely laughable it is

You're assuming I'm looking at this in an emotionally-connected manner, and I can assure you I'm not. I'm looking at it as someone who has been a member of these communities for many years & can see transitions happening (moreso positive ones for FR & NB), now looking from the outside-in.

I mentioned I live (happily) in Weymouth, and even I know Greenbush service is a joke. Where's the emotional connection there?

Thanks for the welcome...I think?!

 

[underground]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Yes fattony, many would.

But how many and where's the data to back it up? Because truth be told, whenever this has been studied the ridership numbers aren't there. I totally agree with you that the SC needs some investment, but $2billion for a train that research shows a limited number of people will use? That's not investment; that's lighting $2billion on fire. Hell, it'd be a better economic stimulator to just cut $2billion worth of personal checks for everyone in Bristol Co.

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The fact is, people aren't commuting from the South Coast to Boston, so why build extremely expensive Commuter Rail extensions that will fail.

This "fact" is tossed around quite a bit in this thread. As a South Coast resident who commutes to work in Boston on a daily basis, I cannot stress enough how inaccurate this is. I carpool with 1-3 other people on a daily basis. In my office I work in (27 people), 4 others commute from the South Coast. Of my group of friends and family, probably about 1/3 (conservative estimate) commute to Boston for work from the South Coast. Yes, the South Coast is definitely more aligned with Providence, but there's a huge chunk of the population that already makes the commute to Boston even though it's a bitch.

Aside from that, the goal isn't simply to maintain the status quo, but to open up opportunities for employment in the Boston area to more South Coast residents; and at the same time make the South Coast a viable commuter option for Boston area employees.

I can understand how 70-75 minute commute times would be terrifying numbers to Boston area residents, but that's what South Coast commuters to Boston deal with on a good day (even slower on the bus). That's not the deterrent many are making it out to be. If I drive in by myself, it takes me 35-40 minutes to get to Quincy Adams and park, another 5-10 to wait for the train, and another 30 to get to South Station. When you factor in fuel, parking, maintenance on the car and traffic, a 75 minute one-seat ride with wifi, coffee and room is a pretty appealing option.

*edit*
I should be clear, I'm not arguing that the current proposal is the solution to all of those problems. The current proposal is crippled to the point where its effectiveness is in serious jeopardy. My argument is more in favor of a theoretical rail connection to the region. One that's double tracked with increased headways. That's what South Coast Rail needs to be effective.

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

SCR would allow me the option to take a train close to work (& have a co-worker pick me up 5 minutes away). The stations I'd take...Route 128 to Raynham Station, not even touching Boston. That's not a "laughable" option to me.

So you are one of the 10,000 daily riders, that's all. Its a nice anecdotal source of ridership. It isn't going to tip the line into "justifiable"

But I'd note that the whole population of the catchment area is about 300,000, so call the working age population 100,000. Even that 10,000 number is a fantasy--10% going *anywhere* by rail is implausible given the sprawl.

A realistic ridership is probably 5,000 per day. A realistic cost is probably $3b. That's $600,000 per rider and $10,000 per resident. Just. Plain. Crazy.

 

[fattony]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

SCR would allow me the option to take a train close to work (& have a co-worker pick me up 5 minutes away). The stations I'd take...Route 128 to Raynham Station, not even touching Boston. That's not a "laughable" option to me.

Its not that Boston is the center of the universe and I can't believe that people would travel between other places. Its that those places don't have the density to make a train work. If you, as a person who is willing and even eager to ride this train, cannot make your trip work without needing a coworker to drive you, then who exactly is the train going to be shuttling between FR and Taunton? How many riders could possibly use it and how many mostly empty trainsets are you going to purchase and operate to serve those few people?

CR is designed to connect bedroom communities and small towns to cities that are walkable/transit-accessible once you reach the destination. If they were building a CR from SC (low density) to PVD (high-ish density w/ bus network), I would understand. In that scenario, PVD is the destination for 90% or more of riders.

It is nothing specific about the SC that makes your intercity notion hard to swallow. The ridership patterns you envision simply do not exist on the CR network and there is nothing about the SC that would make it an exception.