Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Lexicon - Living in Berlin heavily jaded my opinion on public transit for a while too. In fact, it lead me to rent an apartment in Chelsea off the 116/117 because I was thinking "oh it's on a bus route - it will be a fine commute like the MetroBus was in Berlin." No. Not in the slightest.

Similarly, The MBCR is not DeutscheBahn Regionalverkehr. Commuter Rail (unfortunately) plays a much smaller role in the US - it is only for 9-5 jobs and sporting events. Structurally the system itself needs to change before a major expansion like this can happen.

I am originally from Freetown and was a huge proponent of this project but seeing the budget spiral out of control over the years and reading the analyses, I'm not convinced this is the right time.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that this would be dead if people knew how far the proposed costs have spiraled over just the last five years.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

As far as I understand, one of the biggest problems with SCR is the branching destroying the headways. One potential solution I posted earlier would be to serve NB as an extension of Middleborough (either reverse move or loop there, or relocate the station before the Wye?) and FR through Taunton. They would meet near the Rt 24/140 intersection where a park and ride at that mall could have doubled frequencies.

Another solution I wanted to sketch out is serving FR through NB (the inverse is not possible without a lot more work). While this isn't optimal for FR (or NB, since the stop wouldn't be downtown), it wouldn't take THAT much longer and has the advantage of serving U Mass Dartmouth (with a shuttle) and connecting the two cities. To make up for the stop not being near downtown NB, a light rail corridor could eventually be built.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=z6_kdT6WZbbY.kCzskEIfV70I

I chose the Attleboro routing since I think it would be nice if trains to Providence could eventually run, but any of the other routings could work too.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The Attleboro alternative was utterly ripped to shreds by RAILSIM, by the way.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Arlington said:
If you want $3b, its incumbent on you to prove your statements, not just challenge us to disprove them. And frankly, the utter lack of commuter rail tourism *is* disproof of the preposterous notion that commuter rail will bring tourists/leisure travel to town

What's so "preposterous" about a commuter rail carrying tourists? There would have to be a concerted effort by the South Coast chambers to market the train and NB/FR as a tourist destination, as well as a schedule that's amenable to more than just 9-5 commuters. SCR as currently planned won't allow that, which is a major problem, but the idea of using a train to stimulate tourism doesn't seem so far-fetched. Perhaps calling it a commuter rail is simply the wrong approach.

Matthew said:
American Commuter Railroads SUCK at everything else except for one task: getting 9-5 workers from parking lot to CBD and back. And they're only mediocre at that.

Point taken. I still think rail needs to be part of the solution for the South Coast. Why does this have to be a commuter rail? Restore the tracks, run a seasonal NewportFLYER from Boston via NB and FR, run buses for the commuting population until sufficient demand for commuter rail evolves.

My problem with using solely buses and park-n-rides, as has been suggested, is that it only addresses the debatable issue of connecting South Coast workers to Boston jobs. Tourism needs to be major part of the region's future, and right now the area has the assets but not the access. This isn't the Hamptons. I'm not taking a bus, you're not taking a bus. A convenient train link, with the added cache of Newport, however...

datadyne007 said:
Lexicon - Living in Berlin heavily jaded my opinion on public transit for a while too.

Alas, you're probably right. Why can't we have nice things?
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Honestly, if the cost included going all the way to Newport the project might have more hope.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

First time poster, long time lurker (so be easy on me folks...put the SCR pitchforks down)...

I've lived in Taunton for 8 years & Fall River for 4 years (from '06 - '10). I moved to Weymouth 4 years ago to buy out a family house with my wife & "set up shop". I've always been a "South Coast" boy at heart (though that's not to say I haven't been taking the T to Boston for 15+ years for my own amusement).

I very much enjoyed Fall River & New Bedford during the numerous times I drove there, even prior to living in FR. It was clear FR was "rough around the edges" when I initially moved to the city, but that wasn't a deterrent. Rather, I saw it as a chance to be witness to a region-wide change. You can't do anything but rise to the top after you've hit rock-bottom, and FR/parts of NB have been rock-bottom for years.

The reality is, FR has been/is undergoing improvements (some minor, but improvements nonetheless) to its community landscape. The former Regatta (aka "Regretta") is slated to re-open as a new restaurant, while the crumbling Route 79 deck (coincidentally) has been removed as part of a major downtown traffic improvement project. The paint-stripped Braga Bridge has been undergoing major renovations for the past few years, while the new Veterans Memorial Bridge (leading into Somerset/Swansea/etc.) replaced the nearly unusuable old Brightman Street Bridge. Al Mac's diner went from a closed city landmark to a reopened & rejuvenated place for a quality meal. Jerry Remy's opened right near (a personal favorite) respectable Bicentennial Park. The SRTA has opened a new primary bus facility while making overall service improvements to schedules...these are all positive steps in the right direction for FR, but why point all this out when it's so easy/cool to cr*p all over the city?! (Oh, by the way, the Old Colony RR Museum, city carousel, boardwalk to Bicentennial Park, Marine Museum & some dining options are all within walking distance from where the Fall River CR station would be, so don't tell me there aren't attractions nearby to supplement a trip down there).

My point: these are not moves, whether through state investment or individual business owners, that are reflective of a still-stagnant city, but rather moves of a city that is finally looking to rise to the top after being at rock-bottom for years. Of course there's still drug problems, but to that point, there's problems in EVERY town/city. Taunton/FR/Quincy/Weymouth all have heroin issues and it's well-known. But for those stories, there are always the former prostitution rings in Wellesley that were kept hush-hush...no city is exempt from problems, and therefore, no city should have potential improvements fall to the wayside due to it, especially infrastructure improvements. Of course it's easy for North Shorers to say "why bother" when the "gettin' is good" up here, but I guarantee if the shoe was on the other foot, you wouldn't want opportunities for your area to be passed over because times were tough, like it was for so long with Fall River. That's a very hollow viewpoint when thinking of long-term benefits for a city.

Now, do I think SCR in its current form is perfect? Absolutely not. In the same breath, do I think the South Coast region doesn't deserve this? Again, absolutely not. I think the main problem is that many are promoting this as an opportunity for the workforce to commute to Boston. From my observations, most of the South Coast workforce heads north to Taunton & heads south to Providence, so saying this is for Boston commuting seems very inaccurate.

What I DO see is the opportunity for utilizing SCR as a heavy inner-zone service...by that, I think keeping service heavier between New Bedford, Fall River & Taunton would be very smart to do, as these are communities that "interact" with each other much more on a daily basis than they do with Boston. I'd like to think that South Coast service up to Taunton would benefit to have its own schedule (treat it like rapid transit), while rail from Taunton to Boston should have its own schedule. Though this may lead to some inconvenient transfers (depending on timing), have a shuttle run from the Taunton CR station to the Bloom bus terminal & the Silver City Galleria. This allows transfers to Bloom & Dattco buses (respectively), which travel to Boston. This would allow New Bedford/Fall River commuters to wait at the Taunton CR station for a Boston-Taunton train to arrive, while allowing alternative transfers to bus connections to Boston.

Yes, $2+ billion is a LOT for us to take on. Maybe the pending ridership doesn't justify the cost of it...did it for the Greenbush Line? No, and yet, it still operates every weekday (yes I know, cost was different). The MBTA did its part...it's up to Weymouth & Quincy to start making moves like Fall River has been doing the past couple of years & have the service compliment the opportunities each city can put forth. Otherwise, it's just a train passing through with no incentive to "stop & smell the roses". With SCR, I see the opposite...Fall River (& some of New Bedford) has been making positive moves for the past few years. Rail service can pass through, and allow inter-city commuting options among cities that are doing a 180 turn-around. That my friends, is when I want to get off the train to stop & smell the roses.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

People will ride a CR train from Fall river to Taunton?!? In greater numbers than into Boston?

Repeat that to yourself inserting the names of cities that already have CR and that you don't have an emotional connection to and you'll realize how completely laughable it is.

"People take CR from Haverhill to Andover"

"People take CR from Worcester to Framingham"

See? I'm sorry an area you are emotionally connected to is being sold a polished turd, but you don't have to try to buff it.

P.S. Welcome to the board. Sorry I had to jump down your throat on your first post.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

...I think the main problem is that many are promoting this as an opportunity for the workforce to commute to Boston. From my observations, most of the South Coast workforce heads north to Taunton & heads south to Providence, so saying this is for Boston commuting seems very inaccurate...

I think this is the main point. We are building something that is very expensive and won't be utilized. We are building infrastructure that will mostly just benefit weekday commuters from the South Coast to Boston, when as you say, those people do not exist. So I ask again:

Why isn't this being viewed as an intercity rail project? Similar to the Downeaster or the CapeFlyer, or what they could be doing with improved service Boston-Springfield or Capital Corridor rail service to NH, these projects seem to be successful because they are incremental and cater to existing trips being made.

I guarantee that if rail service to Portland or Cape Cod were viewed as 'all-or-nothing' commuter rail service from the start, they would have both been miserable failures.

The fact is, people aren't commuting from the South Coast to Boston, so why build extremely expensive Commuter Rail extensions that will fail.

The fact is, the South Coast is a region deserving of better connectivity and intercity rail service, so why not build incremental intercity rail service that has proven successful elsewhere?
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Yes, $2+ billion is a LOT for us to take on. Maybe the pending ridership doesn't justify the cost of it...did it for the Greenbush Line? No, and yet, it still operates every weekday (yes I know, cost was different).
Greenbush's net-new ridership is 1/5th the forecast (most of its riders were stolen from the Ferry, not coaxed out of cars). Any sane analysis would conclude that those rails and (empty) trains should have been run to Middleboro, where they would actually have gotten used--and created synergies (higher frequencies attract even more ridership).

The lesson from Greenbush is not that every town is entitled to screw the state by demanding a train that nobody, in fact, rides.

Rather the lesson is: Never again.

(frankly, this is why Greenbush's tracks should be allowed to sit empty and its trains should be diverted 100% to Middleboro even at this late date, rather than give people the wrong impression about it being normal to build and run CR that people don't use). We starve Middleboro to shower service on an ungrateful Greenbush. That is so, so wrong.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

People will ride a CR train from Fall river to Taunton?!? In greater numbers than into Boston?
Yes fattony, many would. Boston might be the focal point of the North & South Shore, but is not necessarily that to those living in Taunton/Fall River/New Bedford/South Coast areas (as much as, believe it or not, Providence is).

SCR would allow me the option to take a train close to work (& have a co-worker pick me up 5 minutes away). The stations I'd take...Route 128 to Raynham Station, not even touching Boston. That's not a "laughable" option to me.

It's ridiculous to infer Boston is the end-all be-all of all Massachusetts communities...more specifically, of their transit needs. It's attitudes like that which help me understand why many South Coasters were never quick to jump on the "Boston bandwagon".

Repeat that to yourself inserting the names of cities that already have CR and that you don't have an emotional connection to and you'll realize how completely laughable it is
You're assuming I'm looking at this in an emotionally-connected manner, and I can assure you I'm not. I'm looking at it as someone who has been a member of these communities for many years & can see transitions happening (moreso positive ones for FR & NB), now looking from the outside-in.

I mentioned I live (happily) in Weymouth, and even I know Greenbush service is a joke. Where's the emotional connection there?

Thanks for the welcome...I think?!
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Yes fattony, many would.
But how many and where's the data to back it up? Because truth be told, whenever this has been studied the ridership numbers aren't there. I totally agree with you that the SC needs some investment, but $2billion for a train that research shows a limited number of people will use? That's not investment; that's lighting $2billion on fire. Hell, it'd be a better economic stimulator to just cut $2billion worth of personal checks for everyone in Bristol Co.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The fact is, people aren't commuting from the South Coast to Boston, so why build extremely expensive Commuter Rail extensions that will fail.

This "fact" is tossed around quite a bit in this thread. As a South Coast resident who commutes to work in Boston on a daily basis, I cannot stress enough how inaccurate this is. I carpool with 1-3 other people on a daily basis. In my office I work in (27 people), 4 others commute from the South Coast. Of my group of friends and family, probably about 1/3 (conservative estimate) commute to Boston for work from the South Coast. Yes, the South Coast is definitely more aligned with Providence, but there's a huge chunk of the population that already makes the commute to Boston even though it's a bitch.

Aside from that, the goal isn't simply to maintain the status quo, but to open up opportunities for employment in the Boston area to more South Coast residents; and at the same time make the South Coast a viable commuter option for Boston area employees.

I can understand how 70-75 minute commute times would be terrifying numbers to Boston area residents, but that's what South Coast commuters to Boston deal with on a good day (even slower on the bus). That's not the deterrent many are making it out to be. If I drive in by myself, it takes me 35-40 minutes to get to Quincy Adams and park, another 5-10 to wait for the train, and another 30 to get to South Station. When you factor in fuel, parking, maintenance on the car and traffic, a 75 minute one-seat ride with wifi, coffee and room is a pretty appealing option.

*edit*
I should be clear, I'm not arguing that the current proposal is the solution to all of those problems. The current proposal is crippled to the point where its effectiveness is in serious jeopardy. My argument is more in favor of a theoretical rail connection to the region. One that's double tracked with increased headways. That's what South Coast Rail needs to be effective.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

SCR would allow me the option to take a train close to work (& have a co-worker pick me up 5 minutes away). The stations I'd take...Route 128 to Raynham Station, not even touching Boston. That's not a "laughable" option to me.
So you are one of the 10,000 daily riders, that's all. Its a nice anecdotal source of ridership. It isn't going to tip the line into "justifiable"

But I'd note that the whole population of the catchment area is about 300,000, so call the working age population 100,000. Even that 10,000 number is a fantasy--10% going *anywhere* by rail is implausible given the sprawl.

A realistic ridership is probably 5,000 per day. A realistic cost is probably $3b. That's $600,000 per rider and $10,000 per resident. Just. Plain. Crazy.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

SCR would allow me the option to take a train close to work (& have a co-worker pick me up 5 minutes away). The stations I'd take...Route 128 to Raynham Station, not even touching Boston. That's not a "laughable" option to me.

Its not that Boston is the center of the universe and I can't believe that people would travel between other places. Its that those places don't have the density to make a train work. If you, as a person who is willing and even eager to ride this train, cannot make your trip work without needing a coworker to drive you, then who exactly is the train going to be shuttling between FR and Taunton? How many riders could possibly use it and how many mostly empty trainsets are you going to purchase and operate to serve those few people?

CR is designed to connect bedroom communities and small towns to cities that are walkable/transit-accessible once you reach the destination. If they were building a CR from SC (low density) to PVD (high-ish density w/ bus network), I would understand. In that scenario, PVD is the destination for 90% or more of riders.

It is nothing specific about the SC that makes your intercity notion hard to swallow. The ridership patterns you envision simply do not exist on the CR network and there is nothing about the SC that would make it an exception.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

*edit*
I should be clear, I'm not arguing that the current proposal is the solution to all of those problems. The current proposal is crippled to the point where its effectiveness is in serious jeopardy. My argument is more in favor of a theoretical rail connection to the region. One that's double tracked with increased headways. That's what South Coast Rail needs to be effective.

I think everyone is pretty much in agreement here. The south coast needs investment. The south coast should get a few billion in transit money. The south coast should get rail service.

BUT, not from this project. For anyone who's followed the whole rail tunnels across the Hudson saga, this boondoggle reminds me of that. Another set of tunnels is desperately needed from NJ to NY, that is a well known fact. The ARC project was going to solve that, and even began construction. But it was a fatally flawed project that dead ended off to the side of penn station and would only be used by NJ Transit. It was thankfully canceled, and now is coming back as Gateway, which allows Amtrak and NJT to use it and also connects to the thru tracks.

This project needs a comprehensive review and to go back to the drawing board.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I want the South Coast to flourish and receive its fair share of investment. I cannot emphasize enough that South Coast Rail will not help the region. The only parties benefiting from South Coast Rail are the consultants sucking up the money. And once that $2.3 billion is flushed, you won't see a dime for another generation. Another Greenbush debacle (except worse) is exactly what we're trying to prevent here.

When you factor in fuel, parking, maintenance on the car and traffic, a 75 minute one-seat ride with wifi, coffee and room is a pretty appealing option.

The only credible simulation in the FEIR actually puts this number closer to a 85 minute one-seat ride. And that's assuming signal delays don't make it worse.

What I DO see is the opportunity for utilizing SCR as a heavy inner-zone service
The branches are on single tracks mostly. And since the trains have to go all the way to South Station and back, they have to deal with the worst contention over the single track trunk through Taunton.

South Coast Rail will not work well for local travel. The schedules will most certainly not support it. There's going to have to be very crazy games played just to make all the single-tracking possible. As I said earlier, American Commuter Rail only does one thing, and that's parking lot-to-CBD for 9-5 workers. Any other kind of use is taking chances. Even in big places like NYC, the LIRR, MN and NJTransit all have this same kind of problem. It's an even bigger missed opportunity there, but that's how American Commuter Rail works. Or rather, doesn't work.

Please, listen to transit advocates like us. I support transit and expansion of all kinds, generally. But when I see something that is designed so horribly, I feel obligated to let you know that you are being played by corrupt forces. There are so many better ways to invest in the South Coast. SCR is not an investment, it's a failure in the making that will drag everyone down.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

If you cannot read and discuss the official South Coast Rail Final Environmental Impact Report in order to make a case for supporting the project, then you are not contributing anything but heated emotions.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Well, that was a quick come-and-go for me on this site. I thought this would be a forum where folks could eloquently exchange ideas and talk in a respectful manner to each other (yes, you can do that while pointing out pros AND cons), but it seems no different than any "my opinion is better than yours because I read xxx data" site on the internet...it reads no different than those participating in the government which most express their anger against.

Hope the open-minded few on here keep their head grounded. Take care.

Don't take it personally DJ... you came in on the unpopular side of a highly opinionated debate - probably the most vociferously argued one on the forum right now (other threads are far more civil, I promise)

The reason that this issue gets some people's blood boiling has nothing to do with disrespect for the south coast. What it really comes down to is that there's a lot at stake here: when an escalating number of billions of dollars is spent on a transit solution that may not solve much of anything, we risk Big Dig syndrome at the state level - no more transit investment at the mega-project scale. Can those billions be spent more effectively on the south coast? Ignore for a second those who are saying to spend that money in Boston. If you tell me that, first and foremost, the region needs a train to Boston, then I will not argue. But before you say that's the case, keep in mind the studies themselves show a minimal impact relative to the investment and I think it's clear that a higher ROI and impact for the region itself could be achieved with a very different type of scheme. The debate isn't about whether the south coast "deserves" a train or not. It's about how we spend billions of dollars in a way that everyone can and will agree: That Was Money Well Spent.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Personally, and despite the obvious trauma it would cause, I think it may be time to start with some serious eminent domain to create NEW overland commuter rail/heavy rail/light rail routes that actually go through the population bases, rather than relying on old routes that aren't convenient. Applied to SCR, why not double track the whole route? Would probably cost another billion, but if we're going to waste money, might as get it done the right way.
 

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