Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

^I spoke with some members of SRPEDD and others involved in the commuter rail project and they made me feel a little better about this whole "BRT vs. CR" bit.

While they're investigating the BRT and posing it as an potential alternative to rail travel, the general feelings of those involved in the project is that the main purpose of this (like many of the other "possible routes") investigation is just to say they looked at everything.

They're well aware that BRT can't replace rail in terms capacity, comfort, reliability, and rider preference. They're also aware that Bus stations don't help spur Transit Oriented Development in nearly the way that rail stations do. Finally, they also know that in terms of cost, adding bus lanes all the way up 24, 128, and 93 would cost as much as if not more than upgrading rail.

One official went so far as to say that some of the alternate routes and the bus proposal were partially designed to gain more support for the desired route (through Stoughton, and the swamp in Easton). By generating mostly negative responses (like many of the ones here) towards these alternative plans, they hope to gain more support for the best route (again, Stoughton).

I feel better.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Deval Patrick has ruled out Bus Rapid Transit as an alternative to the SouthCoast Commuter Rail. Judging from some of the quotes in the article I think this is mostly lip service, but I hope not.

The Story:

Patrick Rules Out Bus Alternative

By Brian Boyd
Standard-Times staff writer
November 21, 2008 6:00 AM
Related Stories

NEW BEDFORD ? Gov. Deval Patrick said Thursday he will not settle for an express bus service as an alternative to extending commuter rail to SouthCoast.

During a morning visit to Roosevelt Middle School, Gov. Patrick answered questions from reporters about Wednesday's announcement of three possible routes for the South Coast Rail Project.

Two of the proposals to link New Bedford and Fall River with Boston would use rail, and the third would use buses in a dedicated lane instead. Gov. Patrick said the bus option is unacceptable, and he reaffirmed his support for rail.

"The commuter rail to Fall River-New Bedford is a project that I'm personally committed to," he said. "I think it's fair to say, without boasting, that my administration has taken more tangible steps and try to deliver on that than any administration before, and we are not going to back off on that."

Full Story: http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081121/NEWS/811210357/1011/TOWN10
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

One down, two to go.

Signed,
The Massachusetts Taxpayer
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

An Environmental Notifocation Form has been filed with the Massachusetts Environmental Policy Office. 65 different options have been explored, with the list now down to five plus a no build option. Alternative 1 would have a line continuing through Attleboro. The plan would have either diesel or electric trains and would add a track between Attleboro and Readville stations.

Alternative 2 would continue the Middleboro line, improving the pre-existing freight line, adding another track to the Old Colony Main line from Plymouth to South Station, and burying the red line in a tunnel through Quincy center.

Alternative 3 would continue a line through Attleboro and Middleboro, with the portion through Attleboro being electrified and the portion through Middleboro being diesel. A new bypass track would be added in Attleboro and an additional track would be added between Attlebor bypass to Readville.

Alternative 4 would go through Stoughton by restoring an abandoned right of way on the Stoughton line between Stoughton and Taunton. This option would serve the Whittenton section of Taunton.

Alternative 5 would include adding a bus only HOV lane to 24, and then proceed on to South Station via the HOV lane on 93.

The estimated commecement date for this project is sometime during 2012, and will cost between 500 million and 3 billion, depending on which option is chosen.

http://www.mass.gov/envir/mepa/pdffiles/enfs/112408em/14346.pdf
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Poorly written and edited article, but apparently the State favors the Stoughton Alternative; Surprise! (/sarcasm).

State favors Stoughton rail proposal


By Candace Hall
GateHouse News Service
Posted Dec 04, 2008 @ 05:43 PM
stoughton ?

After a long lull, the co-called ?Stoughton Alternative,? which would extend rail service from Stoughton center southward, looks like it may become a reality.
Those who are against it are urging both town officials and residents to take action by telling the state that it?s not a good option, and requesting that the state provide ample compensation if the proposal gets final approval.
The request came from Stoughton?s two representatives of the Southeastern Regional Commuter Task Force, Louis Gitto and Greg McDonald.
Gitto told selectmen Tuesday the state favors the Stoughton alternative as the most promising of three options to provide public transportation from Boston to New Bedford and Fall River. He said the option would have many negative impacts on the town, and urged town officials and the public to contact state officials.
?If Stoughton is the bull?s eye, I think there?s time to negotiate what we want in turn for it,? he said.
The Executive Office of Transportation recommended the Stoughton route, along with two other recommendations, in an Environmental Notification Form, filed Nov. 17. The other two recommendations are to extend service through Middleboro, or to provide a rapid bus system, which would allow a bus to travel in a dedicated lane along Routes 3, 128 and 24.
Gitto warned the other two alternatives would be dropped, however, because the Middleboro option couldn?t handle a full-project purpose, and both New Bedford and Fall River did not want the rapid bus.
Gitto said the Stoughton proposal would add an extra track through Stoughton, which he said has not been well publicized. That option, he said, could add freight trains along with the commuter trains. He said he was concerned about traffic and safety, especially of children who must walk to and from the middle school and high school over railroad tracks.
Gitto said the bus option made the most sense out of the three options recommended by the EOT because it was cheaper ($500 million) and faster. The Stoughton alternative is estimated to cost about $1.4 billion.
The EOT is one of three agencies that determine which route is selected. The Massachusetts Environmental Policy Act office and the Army Corps of Engineers will perform environmental reviews of all five alternatives on the state and federal levels.
The public has until Jan. 9 to make comments about the environmental review process and to raise any concerns.
A copy of the ENF can be accessed at www.SouthCoastRail.com. Comments should go to Alan Anacheka-Nasemann, US Army Corps of Engineers, New England District, 696 Virginia Road, Concord, MA 01742-2751, email: screis@usace.army.mil, or Secretary Ian Bowles, EEA, attn: MEPA Office (Aisling Eglington), 100 Cambridge St., Suite 900, Boston, MA 02114, email: aisling.eglington@state.ma.us.
Background information can also be obtained at www.southcoastrail.com.
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link: http://www.heraldnews.com/news/local_news/x415864858/State-favors-Stoughton-rail-proposal
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

These guys are pro Bus? Their opinion now does not matter to me.

A line through Stoughton would serve the most number of new riders and wouldn't add capacity problems to the other lines. I'm all for it.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Isn't the Stoughton route also the route that this service historically used?
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Ron Newman said:
Isn't the Stoughton route also the route that this service historically used?
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Yes, the line has a rail bed, which is why the environmental complains were thrown out.

Its my favorite because it fills a space gap in service, bringing even more people closer to rail
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

^It also keeps a little opening on the heavily congested Middleborough route for possible expansion to Wareham and the Cape Cod Canal area. If that traffic were forced to share rail with the Fall River/New Bedford and the Middleborough traffic, it would be wildly over congested. I think everyone on the Southcoast is pleased that they will have stops at Back Bay as well as S. Station via Stoughton too.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The Stoughton Alternative will get shot down by the Army Corps of Engineers because of the impact on the Hockomock. Historically, there may have been trains using the Stoughton route. But it is nothing like what will be demanded by this line. The economics of any alternative don't make sense in any case. Even if you concede the MBTA's estimates of 4,325 new riders, the cost, at $2 billion is close to $450,000 per rider. If anyone really stopped to think about this in terms of cost, this plan would be scrapped. Who is going to pay for this? Is money an object? Is it even worth it to trust the MBTA with any large project? That organization is bankrupt in terms of money as well as in terms of management. Running buses, with dedicated highway lanes with expansion of route 24, makes the most sense. For some reason, local politicians want to spend $2 billion.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I don't see why a new service on this line would be any different than an earlier service on it.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

It will NOT get shot down due to the "impact" on Hockomock Swamp. Yes, trains have been using the route and this will add more rail traffic, but the Swamp also plays host to Routes 24 and 138; both of which will see a reduction in traffic as a result of this line.

Even the EOT says that the estimate of 4,325 is outdated. They are in process of updating the information to find current estimates which they believe will be much higher. People have thought about the cost. People involved with the project believe that economic development, increased demand for housing, reduction of automotive traffic, etc as a result of the rail service will all help off-set costs.

The MBTA has issues, but you'd be hard-pressed to find any public transportation system in the world that doesn't run at a deficit (I can think of none). Many opponents don't realize that mass-transit is not profitable by itself and is usually always subsidized.

I really don't see the fascination with buses? Sure, it's cheaper, but it will have nowhere NEAR the positive effects on surrounding communities that having rail does. I feel like anyone who thinks the bus route is the way to go must have never ridden a commuter bus in their lives (not a coach bus). Furthermore, buses can't handle nearly the number of riders a train can, they're subject to the same traffic conditions once outside the bus lanes that everyone else is (they DO have to leave bus lanes to make stops in towns), AND, they don't create development opportunities like rail does. It's worth mentioning that buses from Fall River, New Bedford and Taunton DO exist already (they're also much more comfortable than MBTA buses) and they can take advantage of the HOV lane where the worst traffic on the route is (93).

People simply aren't attracted to buses. Why do people pay a lot more to take the train from Boston to New York when buses are available for less? Because it's more comfortable and reliable than any bus service.

People want to spend more money because it makes more sense. the Bus Lane idea is a minor improvement (for nearly 1/2 a billion dollars) to a system that really already exists. It's a $450 million Band-Aid. Bus Lanes on 24 will do VERY little to reduce travel times as the bulk of the traffic is along 93 where an HOV lane already exists.

stopwaste, you wouldn't happen to live near the proposed rail line would you? Your wording makes it seem like you're strongly against this for more than financial reasons. Some of your statement is a bit contradictory in that it appears your trying to twist the same information to paint two different pictures. Fore example, you mention that trains have been using the lines but it's "nothing like what will be demanded by this line." Then two sentences later say, "Even if you concede the estimates of 4,325 new rides." 4,325 riders is not many, so which is it; will the "demand" on the swamp be exceedingly high due to the extreme numbers of trains and riders passing through, or is 4,325 a high estimate and there's no way it'll be worth the cost for only a few passengers?
 
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Lrfox said:
I really don't see the fascination with buses?
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The people who advocate buses don't ride buses.

The people who advocate trains DO ride trains.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Lrfox said:
The MBTA has issues, but you'd be hard-pressed to find any public transportation system in the world that doesn't run at a deficit (I can think of none).
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Not to argue against your post (a damn good one, for the record), but most Japanese railways operate on a profit, but that's mainly because they already have such great coverage and service, plus they also make money on the side with other businesses. If Massachusetts were really crisscrossed with rail lines, and those lines had a reputation for cleanliness, on-time service, and decent travel time, then those lines could probably be successfully privatized.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

jenkins said:
Not to argue against your post (a damn good one, for the record), but most Japanese railways operate on a profit, but that's mainly because they already have such great coverage and service, plus they also make money on the side with other businesses. If Massachusetts were really crisscrossed with rail lines, and those lines had a reputation for cleanliness, on-time service, and decent travel time, then those lines could probably be successfully privatized.
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Good point (and thanks for the compliment). Japan is an exception. I wish we would see the day when our mass transit lines could be privatized and profitable.

Dan said:
The people who advocate buses don't ride buses.

The people who advocate trains DO ride trains.
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Another good point. I commute via rail whenever possible (it's been tougher to do since being in Maine) and would advise others to do so as well. I'd be shocked if I found many people who, if given the option to ride a train or bus to get to and from the same points for similar money and in similar time (maybe a little longer via rail) would EVER choose bus travel.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Lrfox said:
I'd be shocked if I found many people who, if given the option to ride a train or bus to get to and from the same points for similar money and in similar time (maybe a little longer via rail) would EVER choose bus travel.
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When Im going from Kenmore to Harvard Ave, I have the choice of the B line and the 57. Ill take the 57 every single time, even if I have to walk down to comm ave.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Bus services between NYC and Boston seem to be thriving and proliferating, despite competition from Amtrak (which also does quite well on the route).
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

jass said:
When Im going from Kenmore to Harvard Ave, I have the choice of the B line and the 57. Ill take the 57 every single time, even if I have to walk down to comm ave.
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The B is little improvement over bus service. In fact, I'd hardly compare it to typical rail service anywhere let alone commuter rail service. I understand why you choose the bus over rail in that instance, but it's an extreme case.

Ron, I agree that bus service to NYC is a popular route, but many people still choose Amtrak which can take longer (unless you take the Acela, but the time saved from Boston to New York is still minimal even with this service) and tends to be a bit pricier.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I prefer to take the train but I take the bus for financial reasons.
 
Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Hm, I've done both quite a few times, and the bus always seems to clock in at at least an hour later than the train.
 
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