Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

[vanshnookenraggen]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

And it's not like this is a highway with a constant stream of traffic. There will be only a train or two an hour at most which will go by in seconds. People get all hepped up about the noise but I would argue that it adds character. You hear a train coming down the tracks through the woods, it zooms by, all quiet; an overall element of rural life that has been lost.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

You're not too far off on Easton being some hoity toity place. Because in many parts of it, and many minds of the residents it is! I consider it a bit like Boston's own Back Bay folks who squash everything. The Back Bay is right next door to Roxbury, much in the same way Easton is right next door to Brockton, or Milton is right next to Dorchester. Easton is a suburb of Brockton, and a very nice one at that.

The caring about the swamp is another red herring, just like UFP's at Columbus Center. Act like you care about one thing, when you are really protecting your real agenda. The swamp is not the real concern of these folks as I'm sure they would have no problem with the train running thru one of the neighboring towns or cities which the swamp also resides in. It is actually the largest swamp of it's kind on the east coast I believe and quite the little sub eco-system. I'm all for protecting it as well, and think it wouldn't need to be impacted too much to get this done.

The train route to Fall River and New Bedford is a critical extension, but looking at a map the Stoughton extension doesn't appear to make the most sense. How a Middleboro extension is redundant I haven't figured out, but everyone seems to agree with this.... but New Bedford is directly South (even a little east) of Brockton. This is a straight shot. The track can also parallel Rts. 24 and then 140 to reach New Beige. A split would need to occur at to reach these 2 cities down south, so a split at 24 & 140 looks like it would be as good as any. And from here could pick up both Taunton and Fall Reve.

Once again I am pro Brockton as usual, but let's face it. It is the largest city South of Boston, and a natural cross roads from the south to Boston. It is an urban area, with rails in place. Very underused rails at this point in time, since ridership beyond BSC is very low. The Old Colony lines are the only lines without late night service, as the last train to Brockton is a 10:30. The other plus Brockton has is a little brilliant idea the City planners had about 120 years ago, when they became the first city in the country to abolish grade crossings. So traffic in the city is not affected by the rail.

As someone noted, Rt. 24 already passes thru the swamp. Expand a little, and there is a rail bed. A little more research would probably show me that railbeds already exist between these south shore cities. What is clear, is that these cities (Taunton, Fall River, and New Bedford) all need to have rail access to Boston. These are large populations, that have really been cut off from the Big City, and the interconnection is needed for growth on both ends of the service. This doesn't just benefit the south coast cities, but Boston as well. When more people have access... more people will come to the city, and maybe even go visit these historic sea coast cities and villages.

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

^THe railbeds do exist already between New Bedford, Taunton, and Fall River. To my knowledge, this route will only include updating of existing railbeds, not creating new ones. There is a proposed holdover yard in Freetown, but it's in an industrial area, and everyone in town is supportive. Easton is really the biggest problem in terms of opposition, and it truly is for the most selfish reasons.

Anyways, the proposed split is at Myrics Junction in Berkley. Like you said, Seamus, it's just about at the 140/24 split and the junction exists already and just needs to be updated. The Stoughton extension is the only one that makes sense as it's far and away the most direct route.

Here is a link to a map of the proposed routes (on the drop down menu) from southcoastrail.com:
http://southcoastrail.com/mapsphotos.asp?GroupID=11861

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The problem with a branch off the Middleboro line is that the Old Colony lines are squeezed down to one track through parts of Dorchester and more service would be difficult. Stoughton offers the best option.

The only real problem with this line is who is gonna pay for it? The T is already saddled with debt because it payed for all the CR expansion in the 80s and 90s at the expense of the central subway. Since the state can't seem to pay for the projects it promiced to pay for I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't take off for a while (which is very unfortunate.)

 

[SouthofBoston]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I'm in favor of the Stoughton route, too, for several reasons:

1. It is the most direct route to Boston. The other rail routes, particularly Middleborough, are less direct and therefore would attract less riders.

2. Already noted track capacity issues through Quincy and Dorchester would limit the number of possible trains on the Middleborough route.

3. Use of the Middleborough route would likely, per the Phase 1 analysis, foreclose the possibility of extending commuter rail down to Wareham and Buzzards Bay.

4. The Middleborough route bypasses Boston's Back Bay station, an area where many people work or go to school.

5. The Middleborough route would force the relocation of the Lakeville/Middleborough station, where transit-oriented development is already underway.

6. The Attleboro route would require many grade crossings in Taunton, unless another mini Big Dig is done to tunnel through as was done in Hingham. I believe a significantly longer tunnel would be needed for Taunton.

7. I don't subscribe to the belief that rail though the Hockomock Swamp will ruin the environment. If these so-called "environmentalists" in Easton and Raynham really believe this, why aren't they fighting for the closure of Routes 138 and 24 through the swamp? The tens of thousands of cars, buses and heavy trucks that pass through the swamp every day are doing far, far more damage than the passage of 2 - 3 dozen daily commuter trains would.

8. Expanded bus service is simply not going to attract nearly the ridership of rail, even if dedicated bus lanes were built all the way from the northern end of Route 140, up Route 24, and along I-93 all the way to downtown Boston.

9. The Stoughton route would provide stations in Raynham and Easton, taking pressure off surrounding stations, particularly in Stoughton center.

I also note that the Wareham/Buzzards Bay rail extension would be a fraction of the cost per passenger than that for South Coast rail, according to a recent Boston MPO study compared against South Coast rail documents. I'm not implying South Coast rail should not be built. I am implying that it certainly should not be built at the expense of the Wareham/Buzzards Bay extension. Routing South Coast rail via Middleborough would do just that.

I also argue that the Wareham/Buzzards Bay extension should be built first, as it's a fraction of the cost of South Coast rail and faces virtually no opposition.

 

[belmont square]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

8. Expanded bus service is simply not going to attract nearly the ridership of rail, even if dedicated bus lanes were built all the way from the northern end of Route 140, up Route 24, and along I-93 all the way to downtown Boston.

Is the suggestion that people won't ride a bus even if it has the same frequency, travel time, fare, and reliability as rail? That's weird, and I don't think we should be spending hundreds of millions of dollars to satisfy those people's mode fetish--I agree with all of the other 8 reasons though.

 

[Ron Newman]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Would it have the same comfort as rail? That's a reasonable question to ask given the distance being covered. I've taken some pretty nerve-rattling and bone-shaking bus rides from Boston to Marblehead.

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

There are buses already from Fall River, NB, Taunton, etc. Even with dedicated bus lanes, it's hard to promise the same consistency that rail travel has (even though the MBTA is one of the least dependable rail systems in the U.S.)

It's not so much spending hundreds of millions to serve a "fetish," as it's spending hundreds of millions to draw out commuters. If we "save" millions by creating bus lanes and a bus route from these cities, how is it money well spent if no one uses the service? Not to mention the costs to add bus lanes to 24, 128, and 93 can't be all that low (particularly 93).

Rail offers comfort and reliability that an hour or so bus ride simply can't.

 

[belmont square]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Even with dedicated bus lanes, it's hard to promise the same consistency that rail travel has

Why?

If we "save" millions by creating bus lanes and a bus route from these cities, how is it money well spent if no one uses the service?

It's not. But some may argue that spending this much money on commuter rail isn't money well spent either, given the small number of riders served when compared to urban projects in Greater Boston. Any expenditure of this amount in Boston would serve far more riders.

Rail offers comfort and reliability that an hour or so bus ride simply can't.

Fair enough. But I still have an issue with the premise that there's a hypothetical guy in Fall River who is currently spending $25 a day in gas, $30 a day in parking, and driving 90 minutes each way to the Financial District, who would thumb his nose at a hypothetical 60 minute bus ride to South Station leaving every 30 minutes in the peak and costing $16 round trip, but would jump at the chance for a hypothetical 60 minute train ride to South Station leaving every 30 minutes in the peak and costing $16 round trip.

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

^Not that he's Everyman, but my father would be one example of the hypothetical man you refer to. He drives to work at 1 Beacon every day from Assonet. Because of bad experiences on buses to/from the area, he laughed at the idea of the buses/ dedicated bus lanes. This is the same guy who is chomping at the bit to be able to ride a CR train from a Freetown station simply because (of the perception that) it's a lot more reliable.

The reason I say it's hard to promise the same consistency as rail travel is simply because I'm not sure where the bus lanes are going to go/ who they're going to be open to. I'll give this the benefit of the doubt and say that they'll extend from exit 12 on 24 (the 24/140 interchange) all the way to the tunnel entrance or S. Station exit on 93. Even then, do you restrict those lanes to MBTA buses (assuming the MBTA operates them as an alternative to the train), or do you open them to private buses like Peter Pan, Brockton-Plymouth, etc? and when you get to 128 and 93 do private buses from the Providence area, Fall River/NB area, Plymouth/Rt. 3 area use them? If so, there's always the risk of back ups of buses, breakdowns, etc.

If there is a breakdown or hickup in service, how do you bus people around the accidents or problems? you can't unload them from the middle of highway lanes onto different buses to continue the commute. With rail, you bus from station to station around the problem.
Next, given that the commuter rail will have stops outside of Fall River and New Bedford, how do the buses leave their lanes to pick up passengers to pick up passengers in Taunton and other stops at points North of the terminus stops? Fall River and NB are urban areas (and to an extent, so is Taunton); as a result, buses are subject to the same traffic signals, auto traffic, construction, delays, etc while off of the highway in these areas as anyone else.

Capacity is another issue. Fall River/ New Bedford is a populated (and growing) area. It's hard to serve the same portion of the population with a bus as you can with Rail. It would require a bunch of buses, back to back, to do the same amount of work as one train can. This increases the chances for incidents and also increases operating costs. Most commuters are guaranteed a spot (either standing or sitting) on say, the hypothetical 7:30 train. If you're aiming for the hypothetical 7:30 bus and you don't show up early, there's a good chance you're not getting a seat and will have to wait for whatever amount of time it takes for the next bus to leave (I'd assume buses would be more frequent than trains, but it's more time regardless).

Comfort is a question that I worry about too. If there are hard plastic seats like the horrific bus trips Ron refers to, then I'd be willing to bet people would rather drive.

I have a bias as a result of growing up on the South Coast that plays a role in my enthusiasm and expectations for this project. Even putting that bias aside, and acknowledging that dedicated bus lanes would draw SOME ridership, I really can't see them as a good alternative to commuter rail travel.

 

[mass88]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

^Not that he's Everyman, but my father would be one example of the hypothetical man you refer to. He drives to work at 1 Beacon every day from Assonet. Because of bad experiences on buses to/from the area, he laughed at the idea of the buses/ dedicated bus lanes. This is the same guy who is chomping at the bit to be able to ride a CR train from a Freetown station simply because (of the perception that) it's a lot more reliable.

The reason I say it's hard to promise the same consistency as rail travel is simply because I'm not sure where the bus lanes are going to go/ who they're going to be open to. I'll give this the benefit of the doubt and say that they'll extend from exit 12 on 24 (the 24/140 interchange) all the way to the tunnel entrance or S. Station exit on 93. Even then, do you restrict those lanes to MBTA buses (assuming the MBTA operates them as an alternative to the train), or do you open them to private buses like Peter Pan, Brockton-Plymouth, etc? and when you get to 128 and 93 do private buses from the Providence area, Fall River/NB area, Plymouth/Rt. 3 area use them? If so, there's always the risk of back ups of buses, breakdowns, etc.

If there is a breakdown or hickup in service, how do you bus people around the accidents or problems? you can't unload them from the middle of highway lanes onto different buses to continue the commute. With rail, you bus from station to station around the problem.
Next, given that the commuter rail will have stops outside of Fall River and New Bedford, how do the buses leave their lanes to pick up passengers to pick up passengers in Taunton and other stops at points North of the terminus stops? Fall River and NB are urban areas (and to an extent, so is Taunton); as a result, buses are subject to the same traffic signals, auto traffic, construction, delays, etc while off of the highway in these areas as anyone else.

Capacity is another issue. Fall River/ New Bedford is a populated (and growing) area. It's hard to serve the same portion of the population with a bus as you can with Rail. It would require a bunch of buses, back to back, to do the same amount of work as one train can. This increases the chances for incidents and also increases operating costs. Most commuters are guaranteed a spot (either standing or sitting) on say, the hypothetical 7:30 train. If you're aiming for the hypothetical 7:30 bus and you don't show up early, there's a good chance you're not getting a seat and will have to wait for whatever amount of time it takes for the next bus to leave (I'd assume buses would be more frequent than trains, but it's more time regardless).

Comfort is a question that I worry about too. If there are hard plastic seats like the horrific bus trips Ron refers to, then I'd be willing to bet people would rather drive.

I have a bias as a result of growing up on the South Coast that plays a role in my enthusiasm and expectations for this project. Even putting that bias aside, and acknowledging that dedicated bus lanes would draw SOME ridership, I really can't see them as a good alternative to commuter rail travel.

There are probably a good amount of people that would LOVE a rail link between southern Mass and Boston. My girlfriend has 5 relatives who work in Boston and live down in the area (Somerset and Rehoboth). I have talked to them several times about the need for a rail link and none of them believe that the CR will ever be extended down to that area because of false talk that has happened. It really is too bad that there are some obstacles that may not be able to be overcome because now more than ever, mass transit is highly needed.

With traffic the way it is on 24 after the 140 exit (which would be pretty bad on some days) the train is a much easier option for people.

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I think the vast majority (myself included) would LOVE the rail project. Easton and parts of Raynham are really the two sticks in the mud in terms of support. Most people here don't believe it'll happen either.

 

[unterbau]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Would it have the same comfort as rail? That's a reasonable question to ask given the distance being covered. I've taken some pretty nerve-rattling and bone-shaking bus rides from Boston to Marblehead.

I'd wager that, no, you can't eliminate the bumpiness or shaking that comes with bussing, although the separate lane would at least deal with the jerkiness of stop-and-go traffic.

 

[TC]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Is the suggestion that people won't ride a bus even if it has the same frequency, travel time, fare, and reliability as rail? That's weird, and I don't think we should be spending hundreds of millions of dollars to satisfy those people's mode fetish--I agree with all of the other 8 reasons though.

I don't think the bus should (or could be) considered an equal unless they have a dedicated lane all the way into Boston. That would have to include the SE Expressway; and the current HOV Lane is not the answer until it connects to the the under utilized HOV Ramps near South Station.

And that added lane from the south coast has to cost more than the proposed rail service.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Well, I got one guy who sits behind me here in Southie who commutes everyday from New Bedford on what he tells me can sometimes be a 2 hr. bus ride.

The guy directly next to me comes up from Johnston, RI, which admittedly has near rail service, but it's just for perspective. I know quite a few other engineers from the Somerset and Rehobeth area who commute up here.

The idea with rail service to the South Coast, is not how many people currently commute up from there to work in the City, but how many more would given the opportunity that rail service provides.

I'm only 20 miles south of the City, and couldn't see commuting to Boston without the train. When I do, I need to leave at about 5:45 (closer to 5:30 as it gets lighter in the morning. Weird thing I have noticed. People go to work earlier when it's light out. Must be some kind of psychological thing about getting up and leaving in the dark.) to make it to work without sitting in traffic.

There is the allure of working in the city, (better pay, more options, more things to do), but these cannot be overbalanced by the troubles associated with commuting, particularly with ridiculously high (by our standards) gas prices.

On a side note. Since seeing the T unveil their latest marketing scheme, and plastering the sides of the trains with the "No Brainer" ads. I got to wondering....with the T so deep in debt, why have they not tried to sell off the sides of trains like this for advertising. Seems a good way to try to get some loot back in the books.

Just a passing thought. That's a free one from me to you Mr. Grabasskiss, or however you spell that....

 

[unterbau]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I imagine it would be harder to convince cities like Easton or Raynham to accept these proposals if you're going to be rolling billboards through their town centers.

 

[belmont square]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I don't think the bus should (or could be) considered an equal unless they have a dedicated lane all the way into Boston. That would have to include the SE Expressway; and the current HOV Lane is not the answer until it connects to the the under utilized HOV Ramps near South Station.

And that added lane from the south coast has to cost more than the proposed rail service.

Was never suggesting that bus service in this corridor could ever provide the same level of service as rail (at least at anything approaching a reasonable cost). Only responding to one of the points in the earlier post that people won't use the bus even if it had a dedicated lane all the way into downtown Boston. Its bad enough when people argue for rail over bus with arguments like "commuter rail runs more frequently" or "the commuter rail fare is less" (as if a state willing to spend millions to expand commuter rail couldn't also choose to spend money to subsidize commuter bus service so it had the same fare or frequency). But to argue that we should build rail lines b/c people won't use the bus even if it had a dedicated right of way (and therefore comparable travel times) is even more annoying.

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Not that this is exciting new information, but it IS information and the NB locations are good ones (so are the Fall River ones).

Rail plan includes three New Bedford stations

The potential station locations for the South Coast Rail project were identified by the Southeastern Regional Planning and Economic Development District. SPREDD started with 55 possible rail station sites along four rail options and 30 possible bus station sites. Those sites were filtered to the 25 presented Wednesday.

In New Bedford, the three possible train stations would be at:

* State Pier.
* Whale's Tooth parking lot next to Route 18 used by Martha's Vineyard ferry passengers.
* And one of three possible sites at the Greater New Bedford Industrial Park, off Church Street or off Kings Highway near Route 140.

Full Story Here: http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080710/NEWS/80710001

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Open house 3-6 on Weds. where the general public is invited ask questions aobut the project.

TAUNTON ? The South Coast Rail project will conduct an open house Wednesday from 3 to 6 p.m. in Taunton to answer questions and receive comments about the rail or bus station siting for the proposed commuter rail link between Boston and the SouthCoast communities of New Bedford and Fall River.

The open house will be conducted at the Southeastern Regional Planning & Economic Development District office at 88 Broadway (Route 138) in Taunton. It will be hosted by the state Executive Office of Transportation. EOT's South Coast Project Manager Kristina Egan is scheduled to participate.

The EOT and SRPEDD are seeking comments on possible rail and bus station sites along proposed routes for commuter rail or rapid bus service. Comments will be received until July 31.

88 Broadway in on Weds. if anyone is interested. I'll be there.

 

[cden4]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

But to argue that we should build rail lines b/c people won't use the bus even if it had a dedicated right of way (and therefore comparable travel times) is even more annoying.

The studies have been done. People prefer trains to buses, even with all other factors held steady. It's partly a comfort thing, partly psychological. A train is roomier, smoother riding, quieter, and frankly IMO has a better view. There's also the perception among many non-bus riders that only poor people ride buses, but thankfully that perception is being broken down.

How is it that Amtrak, which costs a LOT more per ticket, continues to gain riders, while there are buses to NYC that are getting cheaper and cheaper. I could have taken a $30 bus ride to NYC, but instead I paid $150 or so to take Acela. Why did I do that? Of course, the bus is a bit slower than the train in that case, but I simply wanted a smooth, roomy, traffic-free ride. I also was able to get up and walk around, using the restroom, going to the cafe car for a snack, etc.

Bus rapid transit is certainly better than local bus service, but it's still no match for the train. Ridership across the country and the world has proven that people prefer trains to buses.