And you know this..... how? Elitist, much?
Umm... reality. Plus renting in something like Lynn might not even be that much more expensive when you consider you'd need a car to live in FR and a Zone 10 pass is over $400/month.
And you know this..... how? Elitist, much?
I appreciate the wudda cudda shoulda on the Army Corps study, but I keep coming back to this. People seem extremely confident that a new assessment would yield a significant reduction in costs. As best I can tell this is based on F-Line's opinion. I appreciate his technical knowledge as much as the next poster, but take a step back for a second. I don't believe he works for the Corps nor does he have any actual influence on the study. So what are the odds these new cost savings actually happen? You would have put off transit for years with the real possibility or probability of the same assessment. This is before you get to the inevitable litigation over any changes to the project particularly anything environmental. That's a big gamble but what this entire alternative seems to be predicated on.
The main cost issue with the Stoughton route that the Corps' meddling caused was that they demanded that the state build a (single-track) trestle through a long stretch of wetlands, despite the fact that there's a pre-existing (disused) railroad embankment graded for two tracks, and despite them never requiring anything similar apparently anywhere (including basically the same situation on the Greenbush Line, where it was fine to re-use the old embankment through the wetlands; their dressing the trestle requirement as an environmental issue was also curious given that they had no apparent concern for all of the runoff from the nearby highway, which is more of a threat to the wetlands than a railroad on the embankment). The single-track (primarily but I don't think exclusively the trestle) then gave rise to an electrification requirement (again I believe ostensibly on environmental grounds, and again not common practice) which was actually necessary to make the schedule work at all on paper because of the single-track meet staging forced by the trestle requirement.
In my experience with wetland permits with the Army Corps, generally bridges and trestles were considered much more acceptable across a wetland than a fill (causeway) would be. I don't know the particulars of this case, but the piers of a trestle are generally considered minimal impact, especially if the structure can be built with construction equipment kept on the completed part of the trestle and out of the wetland.I read the Corps EIS too. There was literally zero justification given for selecting the trestle alternative over the causeway. The closet the report gets is a single line reference; "A trestle section is proposed in Easton and Raynham to minimize environmental impacts to the Hockomock Swamp Area of Critical Environmental Concern," with no explanation of how a trestle in this section reduces environmental impacts to the wetlands vs the causeway. In fact, the at grade Hockomock section of the causeway was not even evaluated as an alternative.
In my experience with wetland permits with the Army Corps, generally bridges and trestles were considered much more acceptable across a wetland than a fill (causeway) would be. I don't know the particulars of this case, but the piers of a trestle are generally considered minimal impact, especially if the structure can be built with construction equipment kept on the completed part of the trestle and out of the wetland.
In fact, the at grade Hockomock section of the causeway was not even evaluated as an alternative. Also not considered were any double track alternatives.
Umm... reality. Plus renting in something like Lynn might not even be that much more expensive when you consider you'd need a car to live in FR and a Zone 10 pass is over $400/month.
But to the larger question, it's unlikely people from metro Boston with no connection to the area will relocate there
But, I'm all for going back to the Army Corps for a new analysis. What I stand by is that there was no good reason not to do Phase I while we wait for phase II to play out. Especially since much of the phase I work is needed for phase II, namely the work from Taunton to FR and NB.
So, you've got nothing then. For your employer's sake I hope you aren't in any way involved in hiring people, because if you have a blanket policy against hiring people from certain areas (Fall River to use your example) you are exposing your company to millions of dollars of lawsuits any time a qualified female or non white candidate gets disqualified merely due to their place of residence. I think it's more likely you have no clue what you're talking about.
But to the larger question, it's unlikely people from metro Boston with no connection to the area will relocate there due to the long commute. That's not the point. The point is people currently living there now have better access to better jobs (and recent college grads don't necessarily have to relocate). This isn't going to "save" any depressed city like FR or NB if that means restoring them to their former glory of 100+ years ago but it will certainly help. Especially if commuting patterns for professionals do indeed change and you don't need to do 5 days in the office.
That's exactly what driving this and the Springfield proposal. Some pols think the above will happen. They are wrong, and I don't know who they are going to blame when it's multiple hundred thou a rider. Maybe Baker if he's gone by then.
@ Brattle Loop, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be conceding here as I've repeatedly said that this project is a win-win. Boston area needs workers, South Coast needs access to better paying jobs. It's not about equity or owing anybody anything. It's that the largest population in Eastern Mass currently not served by commuter rail is the South Coast and there's some opportunities there to solve a few of those problems.
Some are advocating for Cape access and that's cool but absent some ridership projections I'm not sure how a much smaller population than the Taunton/FR/NB triangle would send more potential commuters into Boston not to mention whatever is going on with the Corps operating the bridge over the Canal. Regardless this project is nearing completion while many others haven't gotten off the drawing board yet so I don't think SCR is holding anything else up.
The ridership projections have been provided for both South Coast Rail Phase 1 and an extension of commuter rail service to Buzzards Bay or to Bourne.
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Table 2-9 on page 2-66 of the linked SCR phase 1 report shows an incremental increase of 2030 (I assume daily) inbound boardings along the Middleborough Route of 1,500 (4,400 Phase 1 versus 2,900 No Action).
Section 3.3.2 on page 38 of the linked Cape Rail Study report shows the Alternative 1 (service to Buzzards Bay, north of the canal) would result in an increase of 1,710 daily commuter rail boardings. These are daily boardings, so that figure should be cut in half for inbound versus outbound, resulting in 855 one-way passengers, resulting in more than half the count for SCR phase 1, at one tenth the cost.
I'm not arguing against South Coast Rail. It should be restored, via the Stoughton route. But based on SCR phase 1 versus Cape Rail Study cost per passenger, Buzzards Bay rail should clearly be the priority.
@ Brattle, I'm enjoying the discussion but can you maybe try to keep it to a short story next time instead of a novel?
But I'll try to pick out the relevant stuff. You're stuck on the idea that there's not unlimited transit dollars and that's a reason to oppose the project because there won't be funding left for other, more worthy in your opinion, projects. That's false. Yes, there isn't unlimited funding but this project isn't causing everything else to dry up. I believe it was part of an 18bn bond bill. The state's budget is 45bn a year, and the state is getting 10bn extra from the feds. SCR phase I is a 1bn project over an almost 10 year construction window.
Regarding the notion the South Coast wins while everyone else is stuck with the costs, ALL public transit works that way as the MBTA is not a moneymaking or even break even enterprise. I doubt the Cape rail project would pay for itself either if that's the standard we're using...
Finally if the Buzzards Bay crowd feels like they're getting hosed, let them get together and advocate for themselves. They could even partner with the South Coast to push for phase II as that would be mutually beneficial. But that project seems like it's got a few more kinks to work out, particularly how often the Corps are going to allow them to use the railroad bridge. Until that's sorted out, there's no reason to delay other projects benefitted more people. I'm sorry if that's gotten you worked up but they've got more work to do. Meantime SCR is nearing completion.
Finally if the Buzzards Bay crowd feels like they're getting hosed, let them get together and advocate for themselves.
But that project seems like it's got a few more kinks to work out, particularly how often the Corps are going to allow them to use the railroad bridge. Until that's sorted out, there's no reason to delay other projects benefitted more people. I'm sorry if that's gotten you worked up but they've got more work to do.
Again though, it sounds like the Cape and the South Coast should work as one to get Phase II built for both of their benefits.
Regarding Baker, I'm guessing this all plays out after he's retired but he seems have to a decent track record of getting some stuff built (GLX, SCR) so perhaps he'll surprise you if he goes for another term.
Again though, it sounds like the Cape and the South Coast should work as one to get Phase II built for both of their benefits.
particularly around details for a terminus for "Cape" service at Buzzards Bay, versus a terminus at a Bourne station on the Cape which would need frequent canal bridge movements, requiring cooperation from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.