Fan Pier Developments | Seaport

does the innovation center qualify as a civic space?

I think there should be some, and as it fills up, it would be cool to see things that revolve around the biomed industry or "innovation". But I don't think a opera or art gallery is missing at this point. On the contrary, I think it is actually in need of restaurants and retail that bring people to the space for entertainment. (Civic spaces can serve this role, but the fact that they need to be subsidized means they don't get enough, and i support them). Then people will want to live down there, and need civic amenities and nonprofit uses. But between the ICA, seaport, BoA, and Fort Point Galleries, I think there is plenty and would hesitate putting the cart before the horse.
 
“We continue to push the South Boston Waterfront to be something more than just ‘anywhere USA’"

Uhh.. no. This is everywhere suburban USA.
 
Sicil, I can see your argument for more allotment to public spaces, particularly those leasing to, say, small nonprofit galleries that would enliven the streetscape. But if you agree more doors would mean a better street, wouldn't amenities like schools or performance venues be better off above street level, as you say the BRA has proposed? Requiring relatively large footprints, they wouldn't necessarily enhance vibrancy (except for brief periods of time at their entrances).

There's a building that was completed a few years back in Morningside Heights in NYC that about Seaport scale. It has a school taking up much of the upper floors and a supermarket on the ground floor. Without question, the arrangement makes for a livelier street than if the "public use" school were on the ground floor.

Frankly, I'm indifferent as to whether a ground floor is occupied by a school vs. a corporate lobby; if anything, the lobby might actually be better for the street. Does this make me an ArchWalthamite?
 
How do you guys consider the Artists for Humanity building, just down from Fort Point?
Artists+For+Humanity
 
Forget ground floor retail, the lack of rooftop observatories is criminal. And the lack of public restrooms.

They build all these parks, now where do we drop a turd after our picnic?
 
Sicilian said:
The intersection of Seaport Blvd and Sleeper, on the southern corner close to Childrens Museum has a constant stream of pedestrians who have crossed in front of the Childrens Museum. It is more intuitive to head for this corner than to head under the Moakley Bridge.

Those who venture under the Moakley Bridge are far more inclined to continue up the ramp and end up at the northern corner of Sleeper St and Seaport Blvd, with no reference back to the Harborwalk.

If you look at Googlemaps, you'll see it's not intuitive for visitors to ICA to end up walking around the courthouse. They don't do it.

Not only would I suggest pavers and diagonal pathways to ICA, I'd take a more radical approach. This type of path should have been used to define some angular streets and/or alleys -- even at the expense of developments to evolve over or around angled streets and pedestrian pathways.
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I'm going to continue to respectfully disagree. No one walks down sleeper. They might cut across it and that is different than what I intended. I won't look at the map because I walked the route weekly if not daily for 8 years. I stick with under the bridge being more intuitive because so many already know it that the new pack follows suit. A diagonal path from CM to the ICA is shortsighted although I like the idea of non gridded streets. But to connect these two because they are the only two culturally interesting attractions this side of the bridge as of today is again shortsighted. The intent is for so many other interesting things. In between. If you just wanna get to the ICA. Take the silver line. Especially when there is a stop between courthouse and WTC.
 
choo said:
does the innovation center qualify as a civic space?
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The Innovation Center is a 12,000 square foot single story building of which 3,000 sf is a café. Of the remaining 9,000 square feet, the BRA negotiated a 5-year lease and 5-year option in the context of approvals of a 23-acre project.

It's hard to wrap my head around that as a substantive move.

It's a gesture.


czsz said:
Sicil, I can see your argument for more allotment to public spaces, particularly those leasing to, say, small nonprofit galleries that would enliven the streetscape. But if you agree more doors would mean a better street, wouldn't amenities like schools or performance venues be better off above street level, as you say the BRA has proposed? Requiring relatively large footprints, they wouldn't necessarily enhance vibrancy (except for brief periods of time at their entrances).

There's a building that was completed a few years back in Morningside Heights in NYC that about Seaport scale. It has a school taking up much of the upper floors and a supermarket on the ground floor. Without question, the arrangement makes for a livelier street than if the "public use" school were on the ground floor.

Frankly, I'm indifferent as to whether a ground floor is occupied by a school vs. a corporate lobby; if anything, the lobby might actually be better for the street. Does this make me an ArchWalthamite?
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With respect to a school, library, community center, I'm completely supportive of space above the 1st floor. There is no planning for any civic uses in the Seaport on any floor. None.

Ground floors should be populated with a wide spectrum of cultural uses. Lobbies should be minimized, especially on tidelands.

When I look at what was approved on Fan Pier in terms of bulk and land use (office space), those ground floors should have been the most exceptional, exciting and enticing ground floors on the entire planet. NO EXCUSE.


AS FOR ARTIST FOR HUMANITIES

I love that building. I love the users.

It's not a civic use I would describe as appropriate for a ground floor on Fan Pier.
 
SeamusMcFly said:
I'm going to continue to respectfully disagree. No one walks down sleeper. They might cut across it and that is different than what I intended. I won't look at the map because I walked the route weekly if not daily for 8 years. I stick with under the bridge being more intuitive because so many already know it that the new pack follows suit. A diagonal path from CM to the ICA is shortsighted although I like the idea of non gridded streets. But to connect these two because they are the only two culturally interesting attractions this side of the bridge as of today is again shortsighted. The intent is for so many other interesting things. In between. If you just wanna get to the ICA. Take the silver line. Especially when there is a stop between courthouse and WTC.
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I hear you, but don't think anyone heading for the ICA, each of whom can see the ICA from either side of the Moakley Bridge, decides to take a left and walk down the Barking Crab parking lot.
 
Nope and I'm sure you're right. Those heading to the ICA will b line it over there. And if you're walking over moakley chances are you want that shortest distance between two points. The straight line.

You bring up an interesting dilemma. It's one we've never really dealt with. We're literally watching a new neighborhood get built. What is the best way to let visitors know where everything is. Signs for every site, attraction, fun place could in time get pretty silly. In general only true landmarks in town get signs. Nothing will be a landmark per se, and most other places in town people know how to get to because its been there for years.

When it's a semi complete neighborhood I think the best way for newcomers to find anything would be the walk around and find it. That's the fun part of exploring new areas.
 
Agree 100%.

But circling back to my main point, neither Fan Pier nor Seaport Square have been held to the high standards this district merits.

I can't see anyone arguing that Fan Pier ground floors, devoid of a broad array of civic/cultural uses and even lackluster in retail opportunities, represents the "plans" described to the BRA during years and years of waterfront planning.

On this issue regarding pathways, Seaport Square is a 23-acre tract of parking lots that have been upzoned at BRA, parceled out and flipped, for 5 years. During that period, and likely during the next 5 years, those parking lots were left as a battle zone while gems like the ICA are trying to eke out a modicum of success. I maintain that if Seaport Square is parking lots, those parking lots should be bisected by pavers and paths for pedestrians to enjoy the fruits of those who have actually built something representative of a world-class waterfront (e.g. the ICA).

I'm starting to feel deep empathy for Fan Pier restaurants. They will have to rethink their menus to cater to a M-W 9-5 lunch crowd instead of a 24/7 lunch/dinner crowd. Thanks to the BRA's fecklessness and deal-driven approach to planning, the waterfront is rapidly playing out as little more than a playground for Financial District expansion and BCEC hotels.
 
I'm starting to feel deep empathy for Fan Pier restaurants. They will have to rethink their menus to cater to a M-W 9-5 lunch crowd instead of a 24/7 lunch/dinner crowd. Thanks to the BRA's fecklessness and deal-driven approach to planning, the waterfront is rapidly playing out as little more than a playground for Financial District expansion and BCEC hotels.
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My guess is that's why most of the restaurants that have popped up are "destination restaurants." Legals flagship, Empire, Strega, Del Frisco's, etc. these aren't places that survive on casual, impulse dining from nearby residents. We won't see any reasonably priced, casual places there until there's more residential.
 
Very true, but Fan Pier ground floors aren't only far afield of what I'd like to see, they are far afield of Liberty Wharf.

So Empire, Strega, et al. are not going to enjoy the "destination" excitement of Liberty Wharf. Am I wrong?
 
What do you mean by "far afield"? Concept? Price point? Location?
In any case I think we should be striving for development that welcomes "neighborhood" eateries. Not only local comfort food restaurant/bars, but also affordable sandwich shops and pizza joints. Of course, no one developing an office building will put a pizza joint in the lobby. Which get's back to Sicil's original complaint about footprints, uses, etc.
 
found5dollar said:
I just don't understand what Sicilian is arguing anymore....
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Haha... I know, I started rambling!

AmericanFolkLegend said:
What do you mean by "far afield"? Concept? Price point? Location?
In any case I think we should be striving for development that welcomes "neighborhood" eateries. Not only local comfort food restaurant/bars, but also affordable sandwich shops and pizza joints. Of course, no one developing an office building will put a pizza joint in the lobby. Which get's back to Sicil's original complaint about footprints, uses, etc.
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I meant "far afield" in terms of ground floor planning.

Looking at the layout of ground floor retail under way on Fan Pier, I don't think you can generate the energy of Liberty Wharf.

Yes, it's still early.

I will end this rant by suggesting that the towers on Fan Pier -- and associated tax exemptions, would have been amazing if they had revitalized a wasteland, maybe somewhere around Newmarket Square for example. The Seaport has been misrepresented as blight, serving as a playground for developers building Houston-on-the-Harbor and speculators spending decades doing nothing but upzoning at the BRA and flipping parking lots. The public invested $8B in the Seaport to alter its trajectory from "blighted" and deserved better. FULL STOP.
 
I agree with the misrepresentation. Every article refers to windswept parking lots being transformed into a paradise of live work and play. Windswept conjurs up empty cracked lots with scrub grass growing all through the cracks and a random tumble weed rolling along that wind.

The lots, although an awful use of land in todays Boston, are jam packed and raking in the dough. If Seaport Square wasn't coming, any owner would be thrilled to keep the easy money rolling in and raising the price a buck every 2 years or sooner.
 
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