Fan Pier Developments | Seaport

[jdrinboston]

As for overkill, the Seaport (Fort Point included) doesn't have a single square foot of public civic space. Not one. No community center, school, etc. And none planned. None. Should we be even debating the logic of "overkill?"

Great developers subsidize ground floors to attract smaller, more interesting tenants. That's why Fort Point's Congress St is a phenominal success... the BRA had nothing to do with it. The developer operating at Congress St has subsidized retail and even has been stepping up to subsidize civic space for the past few years. Amazing.

You contradict yourself in these two paragraphs. In this first paragraph, you decry the lack of public space in the entire Seaport (including Fort Point) and then in the second paragraph you praise the Fort Point developer for subsidizing civic space, going so far as to call it amazing. So which is it?

I've never heard anyone argue that there can be overkill of galleries, music venues, opera, theater, jazz along with restaurants, shops, etc.

If that is the mix we're talking about, I'm not arguing that either. But Fan Pier/Liberty Wharf has restaurants and shops and their is a gigantic art gallery located in between them (albeit one that charges admission). I'm unclear whether or not shops and restaurants actually fulfill the requirements under Chapter 91. Earlier, it seemed you were criticizing the state's decision to recognize these uses.

But frankly, if every building on the waterfront were to possess a ground floor art gallery, I would call that overkill and I would argue that this would kill ground level activity far more than a string of trendy restaurants. I imagine that there is a far larger subset of people looking for places to eat and socialize than gaze at free public art.

But I do think, if there were visionaries at work, we'd have Bostonians eager to see stuff get built instead of just being eager to stand in line for a martini at Liberty Wharf.

What the hell does this even mean?

 

[Sicilian]

You contradict yourself in these two paragraphs. In this first paragraph, you decry the lack of public space in the entire Seaport (including Fort Point) and then in the second paragraph you praise the Fort Point developer for subsidizing civic space, going so far as to call it amazing. So which is it?

The civic/cultural spaces provided by this particular developer were temporary -- and quite generous in my view. But temporary space is not what I'm talking about.

There are no permanent (or long-term) civic spaces across the entire district. Two signators to the BRA's 100 Acre Plan are approaching full build, without producing a single square foot of civic / cultural space -- one of the BRA's oft-stated rationales for involving itself in urban planning when it arrived to draft 100 Acres Plan.

As for your overkill argument, I didn't suggest 10 art galleries. I suggested ground floors populated by opera, theater, jazz, galleries, music, public space for meetings, etc. Uses ordinarily found on the best waterfronts in the world.

The "martini" comment was only meant to suggest that Bostonians are barely engaged in the potential of the Seaport for a reason. There is no reason to be excited despite $8B in taxpayer investment and the most amazing harbor and Fort Point Channel resources at the edge.

Carving out parks, open space and movie barges at water's edge is not planning, the waterfront should be WILDLY successful year round.

Liberty Wharf is a step in the right direction. But it has nothing to do with the BRA, it's on Massport land. Massport has also fallen woefully short in the production of civic/cultural space necessary to attract people who are not patronizing retail/restaurants.

EDIT: Added last sentence.

 

[found5dollar]

There are no permanent (or long-term) civic spaces across the entire district.

What about the ICA. I'd say that is pretty permanent and is almost exclusively civic space. Indoor theater outdoor theater, art galleries, rentable space, free classes for children, etc. etc. etc.

As for your overkill argument, I didn't suggest 10 art galleries. I suggested ground floors populated by opera, theater, jazz, galleries, music, public space for meetings, etc. Uses ordinarily found on the best waterfronts in the world.

When I was in New Hampshire they were talking about renovating the old theater in downtown Laconia. The problem is they couldn't find an investor for just this reason. There were so many theaters already within driving distance that the cost of renovations could never be recouped because the potential user base was already spread too thin. Also, alot of these towns that have renovated their theater (see Worcester) are fast finding out that Civic spaces like that do not create a vibrant area. They create crowds for the half hour before and after a show but that is it. If there is other things to keep people in the area they will stay longer, but the small bursts of traffic associated with a performance really does nothing for surroundings. currently with Fan Pier if there was a huge amount of civic spaces the same would probably happen. The user base would be spread thin, or just go see something in the theater district, and the arts organizations would likey go belly up without adding any vibrancy to the area. Art needs a vibrant surrounding to survive, not the other way around.

 

[Sicilian]

Boston isn't downtown Laconia. There are a wealth of Boston-based civic and arts non-profits that would have thrived in ground floor spaces at Fan Pier. There are a wealth of others nationally and internationally that would likely arrive to populate spaces on Fan Pier.

The ICA is extraordinary, but I'm talking about a waterfront populated by interior and exterior uses buzzing with activities for patrons and visitors -- including those without significant money to spend. We can't expect the ICA to pick up that responsibility -- in fact for the ICA to survive we should have been talking about bolstering the ICA with a host of civic and cultural opportunities in EVERY project being developed.

The ICA has been virtually abandoned in a sea of chainlink fences and jersey barriers while the parking lot owners sit around collecting new development rights. Why aren't there pavers and pathways from Childrens Museum and Fort Point welcoming visitors to the ICA? I could go on all day about the obvious potential and squandered opportunities.

 

[TheRifleman]

Are we truly in a position to know right now if the Seaport District is or is not a success. In the case of Fan Pier alone, we currently only have 3 buildings in an 8-building development at or near completion. The next two buildings in the pipeline will be an office/hotel building and a residential building, as called for in the master plan. Plus there are more residential buildings on the drawing board at Fan Pier, not to mention the units already under construction at Pier 4 and Waterside Place.

Seaport Vision is a better upgrade than New England Executive Office park in Burlington Mass owned by Equity Office but not by much.

http://www.equityoffice.com/buildingdetail.asp?PortfolioID=888021

The only difference is that the taxpayers helped build this vision for a bunch of privately connected people and Seaport was on one of the most important pieces of development property in the city.

 

[datadyne007]

Why aren't there pavers and pathways from Childrens Museum and Fort Point welcoming visitors to the ICA? I could go on all day about the obvious potential and squandered opportunities.

They are linked by the extensive HarborWalk network.

 

[Ron Newman]

There is a continuous walkway along the waterfront, uninterrupted by any street crossings, from the Children's Museum to the ICA.

 

[Sicilian]

Tell it to the thousands of visitors who arrive at the Silver Line Station because that's where they've been directed.

Tell it to the thousands of visitors who try to walk to the ICA from Fort Point.

And by the way, there is no continuous pathway. Seaport Blvd. cuts across the Harborwalk. After that, there is no pathway at the Barking Crab. A visitor arrives at the Barking Crab doesn't intuitively walk around the Courthouse to the ICA.

They walk along or through or over jersey barriers and chainlink. As they have
for a decade. Pathetic.

I've seen pedestrians climbing chainlink to get to the ICA as a shortcut from
Fort Point.

Excuses are a dime a dozen.

Rupert Murdoch and Morgan Stanley, owners of Fan Pier and Seaport Square, could be expected to do better.

 

[TheRifleman]

One question.

Instead of giving the taxpayers money to the private developers why didn't the city & state invest in the transit into a couple of hardrail stops in the area?

This is more logical In my opinion than giving these developers money to build without proper infrastructure.

The future is an massive expansion & upgrade in transit, Oil prices will continue to go higher over-time and people will wanna drive less. Being connected to the Hardrails creates a better centralized location for residents and businesses. This would have been the start of building a good solid foundation for the Seaport.

If the BRA is the city planners why was this never consider with discussions with the MBTA?

 

[AmericanFolkLegend]

I don't understand the people on this board who are arguing against civic uses on the ground floor (or against the requirements for them). If you put up a bunch of office buildings with corporate lobbies you end up with the financial district on the water. That's not a good thing.

 

[AmericanFolkLegend]

One question.

Instead of giving the taxpayers money to the private developers why didn't the city & state invest in the transit into a couple of hardrail stops in the area?

Your obsession with choo choo trains is getting dusty. The Silverline works fine in the Seaport area.

 

[Ron Newman]

I need to take another look, but doesn't the Harborwalk go under Seaport Boulevard (the Moakley Bridge) ?

 

[Sicilian]

The Harborwarlk goes under the Seaport Blvd bridge and terminates at a wall, at the Barking Crab. To get to Courthouse you need to walk up ramp, through Barking Crab parking lot and across Northern Ave. Most pedestrians continue up ramp and end up bewildered at Sleeper Street extension.

That's neither intuitive nor is it the most widely used by pedestrians on their way to the ICA.

Pedestrians heading to ICA from South Station or Childrens Museum are more inclined to use the path leading to corner of Sleeper Street at Seaport Blvd. Although I was incorrect in stating that the diagonal path across Childrens Museum Park to Sleeper St is on the Harborwalk, it is the most often used path, more so than the path terminating at the side of the Barking Crab.

Either way, whether at the Barking Crab or at the corner of Sleeper Street, the Harborwalk ends. The pedestrian enters a world of 4-lane traffic, chain link, jersey barriers.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

I don't understand the people on this board who are arguing against civic uses on the ground floor (or against the requirements for them). If you put up a bunch of office buildings with corporate lobbies you end up with the financial district on the water. That's not a good thing.

I'm not sure that's being argued against, and it also has seemed over the last bunch of years that the plan for the major development and master plans throughout the seaport have incorporated street level retail in lieu of big marble lobbies like we have downtown.

The buildings that have gone in over the last decade and a half have included much in the way of this. Most of it is not affordable to everyone, and I bemoan this, but not the inclusion of said street level interaction. They also have not implemented the street level in a fully successful way as has been proven and beaten to death on this very board. But, WTC East and West both have restaurants and stores at the street, so does that horrendous park lane, 1MP has street uses on 3 out of 4 sides, a few months ago I listed off the street level for the Vertex buildings and I think it was 5-6 separate street level tenant spaces.

There is nothing to say these spaces cannot house art, music, what have you. The proposed and then retracted high rises along northern ave. as part of seaport square included 3 levels of retail and a theater. I don't want art galleries everywhere either, or whatever, but a small gallery included in a space such as at Channel Cafe on Summer. I like that. I liked when they would play records at the bar. Had a nice feel.

Why aren't these things there? Because there are no people. Just the workforce right now. It sucks the BRA keeps cutting back on residential units, but I hold out hope that they come and get filled. Then the civic use spaces become relevant. Right now there are 2 new parks in an area that almost no one lives. Plan for these things yes, but put them all in now? Hell no. They would have no one in them, they would close, and people would remember the failure and we'd lose them for the future too.

A big chance for art galleries was lost when all the artists were kicked out for new developments that never happened. First floor galleries in the co-ops for people to show there wares would have been great in the Summer, Melcher, A Street, Necco area. A little Bohemia or old school Paris art neighborhood or any of those other places I'd like to go. And, if it happened I wouldn't have to, I could go to Fort Point.

Anywho. That's my semi-rant for the month. Happy Holidays!

 

[SeamusMcFly]

The Harborwarlk goes under the Seaport Blvd bridge and terminates at a wall, at the Barking Crab. To get to Courthouse you need to walk up ramp, through Barking Crab parking lot and across Northern Ave.

That's neither intuitive nor is it the most widely used by pedestrians on their way to the ICA.

Pedestrians heading to ICA from South Station or Childrens Museum are more inclined to use the path leading to corner of Sleeper Street at Seaport Blvd. Although I was incorrect in stating that the diagonal path across Childrens Museum Park to Sleeper St is on the Harborwalk, it is the most often used path, more so than the path terminating at the side of the Barking Crab.

Either way, whether at the Barking Crab or at the corner of Sleeper Street, the Harborwalk ends. The pedestrian enters a world of 4-lane traffic, chain link, jersey barriers.

It's fairly intuitive, but could definitely be better. It's more of a curb cut/ramp of pavement with that big ass broken gear next to it. You forgot the awful dumpster smell walking through here. In light of this, I disagree and think this is by far the most popular path from Childrens park/wharf to the ICA. Much more foot traffic along the waterfront in front of the courthouse than down seaport blvd..

Most walk under the bridge, but some go up. No one walks down Sleeper. There is a steady stream of traffic from Congress along the boardwalk, under the bridge, thru the parking lot, across Northern Ave. and around the courthouse. Most of them know the way already as they are local workers, but visitors follow the herd by and large. The weekends will get a bit more iffy, but you can't miss the CM, and once there it gets easier.

Now when Seaport Blvd. gets its buildings this could be a whole different story, as it blocks the view from CM to the water parcels and will make it tougher for visitors. But, hopefully they also load up on street level stuff to enjoy along the way of trying to find the ICA.

 

[Sicilian]

No one walks down Sleeper..

The intersection of Seaport Blvd and Sleeper, on the southern corner close to Childrens Museum has a constant stream of pedestrians who have crossed in front of the Childrens Museum. It is more intuitive to head for this corner than to head under the Moakley Bridge.

Those who venture under the Moakley Bridge are far more inclined to continue up the ramp and end up at the northern corner of Sleeper St and Seaport Blvd, with no reference back to the Harborwalk.

If you look at Googlemaps, you'll see it's not intuitive for visitors to ICA to end up walking around the courthouse. They don't do it.

Not only would I suggest pavers and diagonal pathways to ICA, I'd take a more radical approach. This type of path should have been used to define some angular streets and/or alleys -- even at the expense of developments to evolve over or around angled streets and pedestrian pathways.

 

[TheRifleman]

Your obsession with choo choo trains is getting dusty. The Silverline works fine in the Seaport area.

Really...........then you wonder why NYC works.

 

[ParkerChris]

Procter signs. Accoring to the article, the building will feature "generous amounts of glass." That's probably a good thing.

http://bostonglobe.com/business/2012/12/19/goodwin-procter-move-fan-pier/yEhyRaJ6sNrYx14MLXyuKL/story.html

The law firm Goodwin Procter LLP is moving to the massive Fan Pier development on the South Boston Waterfront, where it will occupy a new 17-story office and hotel building overlooking Boston Harbor.

The deal is another blockbuster for developer Joseph F. Fallon, who is already constructing two large office buildings at Fan Pier for drug giant Vertex Pharmaceuticals Inc.

It also brings another larger employer to the waterfront, adding to a construction boom in the neighborhood.

Goodwin Procter has signed a letter of intent to be the anchor tenant in a 500,000-square-foot building, which will be located next to the Institute of Contemporary Art.


The building, to feature generous amounts of glass, will house a 135-room hotel and retail spaces on its lower floors.

“We’re starting to see the area shape up as a real growth district,” said Fallon, who is also planning to start construction of a condominium building next year. Once completed, his 21-acre Fan Pier development along Northern Avenue will include eight new buildings with offices, condominiums, a hotel, restaurants, and retail shops.

Construction of the building Goodwin will occupy is expected to start next fall. Fallon is currently nearing completion of his second and third buildings — both for Vertex — and has already opened a marina and several restaurants on the property.

A partner with Goodwin Procter said the Fan Pier site offered the firm a chance to build something distinctive and be part of the waterfront’s rapid growth.

“Our desire is to have a building that is very interesting and iconic, and fits within the environment as well,” said Alex Randall, head of Goodwin’s real estate leasing practice and lead partner for the project. He said Goodwin, now located at 53 State St., expects to move to Fan Pier in early 2016.

Fallon said he is working with BBG-BBGM architects of New York to design the new building.

Goodwin Procter will bring another 860 employees to the building, advancing Mayor Thomas M. Menino’s effort to transform the waterfront into a new business district that will also attract retail stores, restaurants, civic spaces, and homes. The mayor has renamed the area Boston’s Innovation District.

“We continue to push the South Boston Waterfront to be something more than just ‘anywhere USA’ and continue to attract companies that can work in collaboration with each other to grow,” Menino said in a statement Tuesday. “Goodwin Procter is a fitting addition.”

Founded in Boston, the global law firm focuses on a number of different practice areas, including private equity, technology, intellectual property, and life sciences. It joins a growing roster of companies moving to the waterfront, where rising rents and a shortage of space are beginning to fuel more construction activity.

In addition to Vertex and Goodwin, State Street Corp. is building a new office complex at the Channel Center complex along A Street.

A number of new technology companies have also moved to the area, and hundreds of apartments are under construction.

Fallon said the hotel in the Goodwin building will offer amenities to the law firm and eventual condominium owners at a site next door. He said he is developing the hotel under the Fan Pier brand and has not decided whether to partner with a hotel company.

Next year is shaping up to be a busy year on the project. In the summer, Fallon is planning to move forward with construction of a 15-story condominium building adjacent to the Vertex offices, and will start the Goodwin office and hotel building soon after. He is also negotiating leases with several restaurants

 

[czsz]

Sicil - one thing that confuses me: you call for "civic spaces" on ground floors, which presumably does not mean retail or restaurants, based on your examples. But you also praise the Fort Point developer for subsidizing retail. I'm not entirely clear on what you're looking for here.

I'd argue the Seaport's biggest problem in terms of ground floor space is its large floorplates coupled with an unwillingness to subdivide those plates for retail or restaurant tenants, so we get dead streetwalls with the occasional door (maybe one or two per block) for an eatery or shop, when there should be a much higher density to encourage liveliness.

 

[Sicilian]

Sicil - one thing that confuses me: you call for "civic spaces" on ground floors, which presumably does not mean retail or restaurants, based on your examples. But you also praise the Fort Point developer for subsidizing retail. I'm not entirely clear on what you're looking for here.

I'd argue the Seaport's biggest problem in terms of ground floor space is its large floorplates coupled with an unwillingness to subdivide those plates for retail or restaurant tenants, so we get dead streetwalls with the occasional door (maybe one or two per block) for an eatery or shop, when there should be a much higher density to encourage liveliness.

I brought up the Congress Street developer that subsidized retail and (temporary) civic uses only as an example of how lively and successful the outcome has been along his properties.

What you have written in your second paragraph is right on target and should have been a no brainer with respect to ground floor planning. More spaces and more doors should have been required by BRA and Boston Civic Design Commission before any waterfront project was approved.

In addition to commercial/retail spaces on ground floors, the BRA and Massport (aside from Liberty Wharf) have abdicated responsibility in planning a solid mix of civic and cultural spaces beyond commercial retail. These spaces would include subsidized space for cultural non-profits (e.g. theater, opera, performance etc.) unable to survive a market lease on Fan Pier, Seaport Square. I don't want to hear whining from the ArchWaltham crowd on this... great cities including NYC and SF demand that large projects subsidize civic/cultural spaces within the project.

On a larger scale, the BRA has been more inclined to encourage crony capitalism on the waterfront than to REQUIRE large (campus-size) project plans to include civic spaces such as community center, public school, etc. Civic spaces should have been expected given the inflation of land value provided to lot owners by public investment and BRA upzoning.