Gender-Neutral Restrooms become law in Philly

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No, you're a liar.

1. I never brought up tax dollars.
2. I said most heterosexual women don't want to share public bathrooms with men. Where did you get this notion of females being forced to pee and poo with their male counterparts?

I really think you need to turn off FOX news and re-read this entire thread so you look less like a space-cadet.

1) this is in public buildings, the cost of development is public ie tax dollars

2) What relationship does the women comment this have to these bathrooms? what you were insinuating is that they would have to. This has nothing to do with coed bathrooms.

"Turn off fox news"? You yourself called me liberal are you literally smoking crack right now?
 
1) I'm not falling for your red-herring. You're trying to bring in a whole new conversation about taxes and that's not the topic of this thread. I suggest you make a new thread about that and I'm sure rifleman will debate you about it.

2) You lack reading comprehension skills if that's what you thought. You really need to re-read this entire thread.
 
1) I'm not falling for your red-herring. You're trying to bring in a whole new conversation about taxes and that's not the topic of this thread. I suggest you make a new thread about that and I'm sure rifleman will debate you about it.

2) You lack reading comprehension skills if that's what you thought. You really need to re-read this entire thread.

You brought up cost not me if it is a red herring its yours.

How is that not what you said? You are arguing that we should not bend over backward for transexuals, so against gender neutral bathrooms. You state that women would not like to share them with men (not going to happen). Why would you say this if you are not trying to give the false impression that under these circumstances they would have to? Maybe you just don't know how to express yourself, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that.
 
You brought up cost not me if it is a red herring its yours.

How is that not what you said? You are arguing that we should not bend over backward for transexuals, so against gender neutral bathrooms. You state that women would not like to share them with men (not going to happen). Why would you say this if you are not trying to give the false impression that under these circumstances they would have to? Maybe you just don't know how to express yourself, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that.

You tried to bring in military spending as justification for spending more money on public bathrooms. The red-herring is on you.

Everybody in this thread has understood my posts with the exception of you. Why are you the only one who doesn't understand me? Kind of makes you wonder, huh!?
 
You tried to bring in military spending as justification for spending more money on public bathrooms. The red-herring is on you.

Everybody in this thread has understood my posts with the exception of you. Why are you the only one who doesn't understand me? Kind of makes you wonder, huh!?

I was using that to emphasize how small the cost would be. not a red herring because you brought up cost...

How did i confuse what you said? maybe i gave you too much credit maybe you aren't trying to lie and say that would happen maybe you just think that is related. But you can clearly not argue actual points just use ad hominem attacks to make yourself feel intellectually superior despite your insufficient mental faculties.
 
OK, I took the advice and re-read the entire thread.


My immediate takeaway from this scintillating discussion:

Howie here seems to have unusually heightened interest...punctuated by elements of fear...in where men and women do their business. Possibly childhood-trauma related, or stemming from exposure to inadequate soundproofing in his room on the other side of the wall. I'm leaning towards a Comorbid Tualettphobia diagnosis with dissociative tendencies. The Rorsarch Test produced the appropriate mix of symptomatic confusion and agitation:

restroom_signs.jpg



We're here to help you with the healing process, Howie. Are you willing to open up about your fears and anxiety? It's for your own good.
 
I was using that to emphasize how small the cost would be. not a red herring because you brought up cost...

No, it is a red herring because you brought up military spending which has nothing to do with our conversation on public bathrooms and the people who use them.

How did i confuse what you said? maybe i gave you too much credit maybe you aren't trying to lie and say that would happen maybe you just think that is related. But you can clearly not argue actual points just use ad hominem attacks to make yourself feel intellectually superior despite your insufficient mental faculties.

That's funny! I bet you don't even know the definition of an ad hominem attack. Here, I'll get it for you:

marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

I don't know you, I've never met you, you're pretty much a noob on this site so how exactly am I attacking your character? Do you have a blog? I could do real ad hominem attacks if I had that!
 
No, it is a red herring because you brought up military spending which has nothing to do with our conversation on public bathrooms and the people who use them.



That's funny! I bet you don't even know the definition of an ad hominem attack. Here, I'll get it for you:

marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

I don't know you, I've never met you, so how exactly am I attacking your character? Do you have a blog? I could do real ad hominem attacks if I had that!

I am saying that people have to pay for stuff they don't like. Its part of the deal of living in a society and that the things I don't like cost much much much more than this. So you should stop complaining about costs on such small scales. This is not in any way a red herring. Maybe you couldn't see the connection. did the clarification help?

As for ad hominem attacks how about calling me a liberal wacko, I am neither. As a generally sane socialist this deeply offends me, you classified me as too far right. Also you insulted my reading comprehension, hardly related to the point I was making. I love that you looked up the definition to a word i used correctly, essentially proving my point, and tried to make me sound like an idiot. At least, if nothing else, you make me laugh.
 
I am saying that people have to pay for stuff they don't like. Its part of the deal of living in a society and that the things I don't like cost much much much more than this. So you should stop complaining about costs on such small scales. This is not in any way a red herring. Maybe you couldn't see the connection. did the clarification help?

It took you that long to clarify what you were saying? Your original statement was still a red herring because it was so vague and off topic. You should try and be more coherent when posting on this board!

As for ad hominem attacks how about calling me a liberal wacko, I am neither. As a generally sane socialist this deeply offends me, you classified me as too far right. Also you insulted my reading comprehension, hardly related to the point I was making. I love that you looked up the definition to a word i used correctly, essentially proving my point, and tried to make me sound like an idiot. At least, if nothing else, you make me laugh.

-Sorry bud, but you're wrong again! That "liberal wackos," comment wasn't directed at you; it was to the entire board.

-I never said you were too far right.

-I wasn't insulting your reading comprehension skills. I was telling you the truth that your ability to understand English isn't as good as the other posters on this board. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but it's the truth.


So, I am proving my point........where exactly are the ad hominem attacks again? Oh that's right, I haven't done any tonight!
 
Oh that's right, I haven't done any tonight!

You really shouldn't hold it in too long like that, Howie. It's not good for your system to keep it be all plugged up all the time. Hell...holdin' it too long can damn well kill a man! Or woman. Whichever.

We can help you conquer your fears, Howie. Are you ready to confront them?
 
Justin7 you are making a common mistake that is easy to make which is that you equate sex which is biological with gender which is a social identification. Sex is whether someone has two x chromosomes or an x and y. Gender is a social identity that is formed during a persons life and as such someone can be born a female but form a male gender identity and therefore see themselves as a male although their sex is female.

Transgender is actually a blanket term and covers everything from someone who wants to occasionally appear as the other sex to a person who goes through hormone replacement therapy and gets gender reassignment surgery.

I appreciate the response. I'll just ignore the the standard internet fighting that has broken out in the thread and respond to you.

I don't think I made a mistake. I understand the difference between sex and gender. What I don't understand is why there is a difference. Is the use of the word gender not just a response to societal constructs of what it means to be masculine or feminine? Men bring home the food and women cook it. Men wear pants and women wear skirts and blah blah blah. We no longer live in that society. I know there are still limits and fighting to break those down is admirable. I look forward to our first woman president. If a man likes the way he looks in a dress then good for him (I hate to use the same example again, but let's face it, men have never seen much sexual oppression in American society.) Without the societal constraints there is little reason to differentiate between sex and gender in anything but a historical discussion.

Because biologically and sexually speaking, we are of course different. So for now, let's ignore "gender roles" and focus on that. Why do men self-identify sexually as women? How is this different than any other delusion? If one is born a male he will always be so, regardless of what bathroom he uses or what surgery he has. That is simple science, no? What makes a man, born with a penis, feel the need to remove it and pretend to be something he's not? How is it not a mental illness?

These are honest questions. I'm not trying to score internet points. There have been mentions of liberal and conservative in this thread. I am a Democrat. We are the party of science, not the party of denying it.

All that being said, if someone wants to have sexual reassignment surgery and has the money to pay for it then I have no right to prevent it. If that makes a person happy then I think that's wonderful because in the end, that is all that really matters. If a business wants to build a single restroom or a third restroom or whatever, great. I'm just not sure tax dollars should go towards accommodating a fraction of the population that is in denial of simple fact.
 
I am struggling with the contradictory arguments now.

On one hand we all need to get over hour hang-ups and have a kumbaya party in a single gender neutral bathroom; while on the other hand, we need to kowtow to a miniscule segment of the population and use taxpayer dollars to build them their own bathrooms because they don’t want to move their bowels with the rest of us???

I agree with everything in your statement, except sociologists may disagree with you on this...

Gender is usually defined by a society, not biology. Look it up in any sociology 101 textbook and you'll see this.

Minor disagreement here Armpits: Without biology there would be no sociology. Biology and the two genders it created predate society – Biology 101, Anatomy 101, Zoology 101…heck even Evolution 101. Nature, much more eloquent than any textbook, holds gender inherent in its way of sustaining species.
 
I hope you guys realize your campaign for gender neutral bathrooms is absurd.


ebb637ce2105041c7c3f10a651db87d41589494.jpg
 
Honestly I would think a binary-identified transgender person would prefer to simply use the bathroom of their identified gender; but of course using a gender-neutral bathroom is generally preferable to getting stabbed by someone who doesn't think they they should have gone into whatever bathroom they did. (Being visually identified as transgender- the risk factor for the person here- generally doesn't have much connection to being post-operative, as surgery in your pants can't reasonably affect your face)

In the end it's a matter of definition- if you accept that a transgender person is their preferred gender, then by restricting bathrooms to sex assigned at birth you are forcing men to go to the women's room and vice versa. (Hell, I could easily craft a fear argument regarding testosterone-fueled trans men or something)

(And if it matters, I'm neither heterosexual nor male)
 
Really, guys. How many times are you going to fall for such flagrantly obvious trollbait?

This is a legitimate topic for a General forum thread. But it does not exist for legitimate reasons or intentions. Stop granting this four-year-old the attention and credibility he craves or opportunity after opportunity to turn the tables and trollololoLOL the whole forums. And you wonder why special, special little Howie [*pats his adorable football helmet*] has been so extra prolific over the last month. You're all enabling him treating his threadshitting like a legitimate discussion. It's not. The topic may be legitimate. But the discussion isn't.
 
Novi

Welcome to the conversation! It's great to finally have a lesbians voice on this topic!

Now, I just need to address a few of your statements...

...I could easily craft a fear argument regarding testosterone-fueled trans men or something

Well you did easily craft a fear argument as to why gender-neutral restrooms are needed. Here's your quote:

...using a gender-neutral bathroom is generally preferable to getting stabbed by someone who doesn't think they they should have gone into whatever bathroom they did.

All you have offered up to this point is generalizations about transgendered people being attacked and harassed yet you don't offer any statistics or evidence. Until you do, it's just another generalization that you know someone who is friends with someone who is friends with someone who is friends with someone that was attacked a couple years ago. I asked citylover earlier to provide data, but alas it appears he chickened out. Can you please provide something?
 
Armpits did you know that the average transgendered persons life expectancy is 23 years.
These links give some general information on violence against transgender individuals:
http://www.avp.org/storage/document...ter/FORGE_Transgender_Violence_Fast_Facts.pdf
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/29/140877153/violent-attacks-on-transgender-people-raise-alarm

The second link mentions that at least 26 percent of transgender people had been physically attacked because they were transgender.

A nationwide survey of bias-motivated violence against LGBT people from 1985 to 1998 found that
incidents targeting transgender people accounted for 20% of all murders and about 40% of all
police-initiated violence.2- found in this fact sheet- http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources/transfactsheet.pdf

Is that good enough for you?
 
Armpits did you know that the average transgendered persons life expectancy is 23 years.
These links give some general information on violence against transgender individuals:
http://www.avp.org/storage/document...ter/FORGE_Transgender_Violence_Fast_Facts.pdf
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/29/140877153/violent-attacks-on-transgender-people-raise-alarm

The second link mentions that at least 26 percent of transgender people had been physically attacked because they were transgender.

A nationwide survey of bias-motivated violence against LGBT people from 1985 to 1998 found that
incidents targeting transgender people accounted for 20% of all murders and about 40% of all
police-initiated violence.2- found in this fact sheet- http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources/transfactsheet.pdf

Is that good enough for you?

I appreciate you coming back with some news articles and old statistics! I think you could have done a better job googling sources justifying why transgendered people need their own bathrooms. Since you didn't, I have to point out the flaws of your sources.

Nowhere in your data does it talk about transgendered people being harassed and attacked in bathrooms. Your sources are very generalized and state it's at "work, school, and from the police." The entire point of this thread is to discuss why special bathrooms are/aren't needed for transgendered folk and so far you fail to provide the relevant data on how these restrooms will protect them.

Your main argument appears to be that the ultimate safe space for transgendered folk is the bathroom, but the data you provided says otherwise since none of it mentions assaults in a restroom. On the contrary, your data provides very convincing evidence that policies within a place of work, school, and law enforcement need to be re-examined because of all the assault and harassment data provided.

However, how will creating special bathrooms for transgenders or making all public bathrooms unisex help stop the assault of this minority group? You still provide zero data and therefore you have a weak and non-existant argument.



btw....here's some better and newer sources for you:
2013 News Article
2013 released study on hate violence in 2012

You still should note that none of these sources site restrooms as the problem, just policies.
 
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