General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Anyone have any idea what this is all about? Is this an official MBTA/State gov't thing?

"The Way Forward: A 21st Century Transportation Plan" will be streamed live @ 11:30am: http://bit.ly/WGAjiL @MassGovernor @MassDOT MassLtGov"

https://twitter.com/mbtaGM/status/290849615023067136
http://vpc1.umb.edu/TheWayForward/

pan-MassDOT. Mostly a pep rally about funding reform. Some of it semi-interesting, but not much we haven't heard before.

Of course when they do give transit expansion its 2 minutes of PowerPoint slides, they identified the #1 priority as South Coast Rail. And say "Fuck no!" to ever building Red-Blue, N-S Link, and the Urban Ring. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

New MBTA Red and Orange Line Cars ($1.5 billion) – Funds the replacement of 43-year-old Red Line cars and 31-year-old Orange Line cars as well as improvements to tracks, signals and systems. The new cars and system upgrade will result in faster and less crowded commutes. The cars will be made in Massachusetts, supporting the local economy.

What 'signals and systems' improvements does this refer to? Modern PTC for Red and Orange?

Rail between Springfield and Boston ($362.4 million) –Passenger rail service directly connecting Boston with Springfield via what is known commonly as the Inland Route. Funding will cover rehabilitation along the route, creating a second track, widening bridges, upgrading signals purchasing train equipment, and constructing or rehabilitating stations. This will also support future high-speed rail connection to New York City via Springfield.

Who will operate this service? Surely it will be a 2 hour journey or such?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

It currently is a 2 hour journey on Amtrak. I don't see why with upgrades a speed ratings to 90 mph, an express train from Boston can't do it in 1:15
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Also, I saw in the metro that for new red and orange line cars it said they would be made in state? Really? who would the manufacturer be if that were the case? Would a Siemens or Bombardier really set up shop here? or is that just a political ploy?

Overall comment: Yes new taxes and fees suck, but I personally think that infrastructure is one of governments primary purposes. And ours is falling apart and has been woefully underfunded by previous generations and administrations. I think we are at a crucial point. More people are on the T, but it is falling apart. So we have to think if we want it to die, or fix it up. I would support paying to fix it, then to throw half-assed money down the drain as it slowly dies and drains cash.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Overall comment: Yes new taxes and fees suck, but I personally think that infrastructure is one of governments primary purposes. And ours is falling apart and has been woefully underfunded by previous generations and administrations. I think we are at a crucial point. More people are on the T, but it is falling apart. So we have to think if we want it to die, or fix it up. I would support paying to fix it, then to throw half-assed money down the drain as it slowly dies and drains cash.

Agreed, I'd be happy to pay more taxes to get a well-maintained and working system. Although I'm annoyed that $1.8 billion (the largest chunk of transit money) is slated for South Coast Rail.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

What 'signals and systems' improvements does this refer to? Modern PTC for Red and Orange?

That sure is what it sounds like. Mind you, CBTC on Red/Blue/Orange is a lot more straightforward than implementing the same on light rail. It's a known-known they don't have to study out for impacts as extremely carefully as they do on Green; NYC is already actively rolling it out. It can improve the headways to up to 3 min. depending on how they time it (and if they don't, it's re-timeable without requiring a shovel). But the big fiscal attraction for the T is that it removes a lot of track hardware in favor of central ops computers and simplifies long-term maintenance. Blue will probably get it first because that's the line with a few hundred P.I.T.A. mechanical trip arms they can rip out and retire. So that's where it fits in neatly with this whole fiscal responsibility angle for the $20B spending spree (1/5 of it bogarted by South Coast FAIL, of course :rolleyes:).

Who will operate this service? Surely it will be a 2 hour journey or such?

Beats me. That announcement sets off a few alarm bells that they're thinking commuter rail in addition to Amtrak. There is no effing way simple track rehab is going to cost that much for just Inlands. The Springfield Line improvements in CT have financials for 60 miles of 90 and 110 MPH double-track and all the grade crossing and bridge upgrades on that line, itemized separate from all the station work there. It does not wash with doing 90 MPH double-track on otherwise excellent bridge/culvert state of repair and zero crossings on the B&A. They have to be thinking new infill stops at Palmer, Ludlow, Brookfield or some combo like that...and that scares the hell out of me given what they habitually over-spend on suburban eye candy. Springfield Union is 100% funded and actively under construction for a major rehab and high platforms; Worcester Union needs no work; Framingham needs no work unless Amtrak really feels anal about high platforms. For chrissakes, get some Amtrak starter service first THEN let the towns advocate for intermediates.

Unless that figure includes the justifiably high cost of buying the line outright from CSX, this doesn't make sense. I could see the Inlands being state-sponsored with lower fares and higher frequencies akin to the current Springfield Shuttles to split the difference with commuter rail fares and serve a limited commuting audience. That would be sensible. But you know that's not what Patrick and Murray are thinking...they're salivating over Purple Line to Springfield and all the South Coast analogue vote-buying that brings them. Which is itself tone-deaf because they're ignoring the realer demand for north-south Pioneer Valley commuter rail to Northampton, Greenfield, etc.

If I had to guess, that plan's gonna get busted down to size in a hurry when reality and actual demand in that region gets studied out. My ass is falling asleep just thinking how uncomfortable those commuter rail seats would get midway through the second hour of the ride. And how hungry I'd be for some pretzels. They need to game this out with the Amtraks first and manage their investment conservatively with state-sponsored Regionals before promising Purple Line.



Also, that Pittsfield service is a howler. $130M-something for "track" and "signal" improvements on Housatonic RR??? Are they on bath salts? Housy can't stop derailing into buildings once a month because their track is in such abominable condition and they refuse to repair it. Connecticut has a $165M (p. 205) itemized repair bill for state-of-repair from state line to Danbury just to furnish them with 10 MPH unsignaled track they'll stop @#$% falling off of. And the state pulled all its Fed grant apps to HRCC from the queue because the company was just pocketing the money it was supposed to spend on grade crossing repair. The only thing MassDOT should be on the hook for on the Berkshire Line is buying it under public control from that near-bankrupt scam outfit HRCC so they stop pissing away the remains of the Housatonic Valley's industrial base, and partner with CT to bring a competent freight carrier like P&W to stabilize the line.

Boy, that proposal really came out of left field. Richard Neal must be at a loss for transit pork to vote on or something.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Also, I saw in the metro that for new red and orange line cars it said they would be made in state? Really? who would the manufacturer be if that were the case? Would a Siemens or Bombardier really set up shop here? or is that just a political ploy?

They put out request for bids on the general specs for the cars, but can't act on it until the order's funded. Orange would get 146-152 cars, +26-32 increase from the current fleet. Red would replace 74 of the 01500/01600 cars + some modest buffer increases (can't find the exact total, but it's out there). Requirement is that the same manufacturer build both at once for economy of scale. No issues with that...the only difference between lines is the size of the tincan stuffed on top, and the 01800's on Red are 20-year-old tech so exact replicas aren't the greatest idea for ensuring 3 decades of parts availability.

The asinine Buy America thing usually means the shells and parts get made out of the country, then are assembled in the U.S. Those new Hyundai-Rotem commuter rail coaches get shipped from South Korea to Philly, for example. I don't know how firm that Buy Masshole clause is, but the usual-suspect manufacturers can probably do it. They all have means of setting up remote factories so they can bid for anyone's orders wearing anyone's contractual straightjackets.

I hope Siemens gets it so Blue, Orange, and Red all have the same exact vehicles aside from tincan size. The Orange 01200's and Blue 0600's were identical orders, with the 0600's even capable of getting modified to trainline on Orange (it was the plan to rehab 24 of them and ship to the OL, but the carbodies were too corroded). One parts source for three decades on 3 lines. Failing that, Bombardier's ever-reliable. They just won the bid to build 300 next-gen NYC R179 subway cars at a "Buy New York" facility. I bet that's the same base model they pitch to the T.

Bombardier wouldn't be without controversy, however, since they're part-owners of MBCR. They haven't won any new vehicle contracts since they got their share of the commuter rail contract, and it shouldn't cause a conflict of interest on rapid transit bidding...but with the CR contract up for renewal and the game pretty much rigged in MBCR's favor you can bet there'll be some grumbling if they win.


I'd be terrified, though, if it were anyone other than those two given the T's history with less-than-compatible fleets.


EDIT: Speaking of "Buy Masshole", Kinki-Sharyo's serendipitously got an office in Westwood for the Green Line Type 9 order.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Interesting that implementation of DMUs is dropped into State of Good Repair items under modernization pilots.

While the price tag for SCR remains appalling, there are some other items that seem to be appropriate, including tservice on Inland Route and the Cape Cod upgrades. If they can accomplish "creating a continuous second track, widening bridges, updating interlockings, upgrading the signal system, purchasing passenger train equipment, and constructing or rehabilitating stations." on Inland for the $362M it is showing, that seems like an appropriate price.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

2 questions on the subject of train cars:

Would it make more sense to pick a single vendor for both the GL and RL/OL contracts? I think both Siemens and Bombardier make both types of vehicles (and have long track records), and if they're going to build a factory in MA for final assembly it just seems more efficient to have everything coming from 1 place. It doesn't seem to me that that factory would be all that short-lived, either, since IIRC big vehicle contracts are served gradually over many years.

Also, it makes sense to me that as long as you're making the cars interoperable across lines, you should change the paint scheme on these cars (less line color) to be easier to modify if they were to shift later. The current all-red/all-orange scheme seems expensive and time-consuming to repaint. Also, it looks cartoonish and amateur to me, but that's personal taste. If the T ever starts widely branching its HRT lines in the future, the destination becomes a better identifier than the line color anyway.

Montreal and BART have some really creative and fresh looking concepts (flashing LEDs around the doors to indicate imminent departure, for instance), but I'm worried the T will end up like the CTA: slightly freshened versions of 30-year-old designs.

EDIT: Semass, I think F-Line's argument was partially that MassDOT shouldn't be buying any rolling stock, since this shouldn't be an MBTA service.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Also, it makes sense to me that as long as you're making the cars interoperable across lines, you should change the paint scheme on these cars (less line color) to be easier to modify if they were to shift later. The current all-red/all-orange scheme seems expensive and time-consuming to repaint. Also, it looks cartoonish and amateur to me, but that's personal taste. If the T ever starts widely branching its HRT lines in the future, the destination becomes a better identifier than the line color anyway.
The cars won't be interoperable- the moving parts underneath should be interchangeable, but nothings going to get around the fact that a Red Line car is wider and longer than an Orange Line. (Unless they narrow the platforms, but that would be a bad idea)
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

EDIT: Semass, I think F-Line's argument was partially that MassDOT shouldn't be buying any rolling stock, since this shouldn't be an MBTA service.

Agreed. However, even with state sponsored Amtrak service, the state would have to pony up for equipment, I believe. A number of midwestern states are buying new cars for their Amtrak services. Also agree with F-Line that the idea of riding to Springfield in a commuter rail line makes my back hurt. Likewise with a ride to the Cape, but at least there will be a bar car to provide relief.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Agreed. However, even with state sponsored Amtrak service, the state would have to pony up for equipment, I believe. A number of midwestern states are buying new cars for their Amtrak services. Also agree with F-Line that the idea of riding to Springfield in a commuter rail line makes my back hurt. Likewise with a ride to the Cape, but at least there will be a bar car to provide relief.

Wouldn't that mean that Amtrak's equipment is way too varied for efficient maintenance and such? Do they mandate the equipment that the DOT must buy them?

Also, apropos of nothing: When the GLX opens, could the T please remove the letter designators from the GL branches? The color names for the lines make sense because they make colloquial terms for the lines match the map, but the letters do nothing but obscure where the lines actually go. GL trains after GLX should display a destination name that generalizes as much as possible where the train is actually going: "Commonwealth," "Beacon," "Newton," "Huntington," "Union Square," and "Medford," (and hopefully "Washington" :) ). The only exception might be that "Riverside" becomes relevant information if that branch of the GL becomes a feeder to future HSR service at Riverside, but that's unlikely.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

F-Line, you seem to have an incredible wealth of knowledge on all things rail.

I have a question about high speed rail. I know the plan is to eventually have our high speed trains from BOS-WSH run via Springfield as it will be easier for trains to run at higher speeds with fewer obstacles (at grade crossings, curves, etc) along that route. My question is what does that mean for Acela (or any high speed service) through Providence? Will it be eliminated altogether or will it be kept as a complimentary option?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Agreed. However, even with state sponsored Amtrak service, the state would have to pony up for equipment, I believe. A number of midwestern states are buying new cars for their Amtrak services. Also agree with F-Line that the idea of riding to Springfield in a commuter rail line makes my back hurt. Likewise with a ride to the Cape, but at least there will be a bar car to provide relief.

You could do a possible intra-state downeaster. Very few stops, comfortable cars, and cruise the trip in an hour and a half. I think Springfield should aspire to be as good as Portland, but if there is a small tourist contingent, a healthy college crowd (get those area colleges to help out, because they sure as hell will advertise an 1.5 hour train from boston in their brochure), and a small but growing commuter population, i think the service could grow. to support itself.

Also, I feel like for the plan to work, it needs political support, and while the NB-Fall River lines may not make sense, it may be necessary to make the whole plan work.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

You could do a possible intra-state downeaster. Very few stops, comfortable cars, and cruise the trip in an hour and a half. I think Springfield should aspire to be as good as Portland, but if there is a small tourist contingent, a healthy college crowd (get those area colleges to help out, because they sure as hell will advertise an 1.5 hour train from boston in their brochure), and a small but growing commuter population, i think the service could grow. to support itself.

Also, I feel like for the plan to work, it needs political support, and while the NB-Fall River lines may not make sense, it may be necessary to make the whole plan work.

I'm not sure If they have in mind a through run from Boston to New Haven or New York or an out-and-back run to Springfield only. With the BOS-SPG only you might get more trains in a day but with NY you get more potential passengers and Mass. might not have to pay for the whole thing. I wonder if a casino in Palmer or Springfield would influence this project.

RE: NB/Fall River, I still think the lines make sense but the budget does not. There have been hearty discussions here on the crazy promises made to towns and cities around what should be a more barebones project. It shouldn't be this difficult or expensive.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I'm hoping that the SCR got thrown in there as a political football that can get dumped as part of a 'compromise' budget.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I know the plan is to eventually have our high speed trains from BOS-WSH run via Springfield as it will be easier for trains to run at higher speeds with fewer obstacles (at grade crossings, curves, etc) along that route. My question is what does that mean for Acela (or any high speed service) through Providence? Will it be eliminated altogether or will it be kept as a complimentary option?
Actually, nobody has advanced any "High Speed" plans that go via Springfield. Trains in the 80mph range could easily go from New Haven to Springfield to Boston, though--what's called the Inland Route.

As for Amtrak High Speed plans, some long range plans draw their line via Worcester, but most now see keeping PVD as the gateway to Boston.

This (older) Amtrak set of alternatives leaves out only three recently-floated ideas: One to go further out Long Island before crossing to near New London CT, One to go from Hartford to PVD (Amtrak's current plan), and the other to cut off Springfield between Hartford and Worcester (via I-84, essentially)
Amtrak+Map_728_418.png


If your question is more about Providence, then fear not, Amtrak's latest proposal sees going Hartford-Providence, like this:
amtrak-high-speed-rail.png


In all cases, there's enough traffic from all the intermediate stops that Amtrak has always seen a sort of "braided" system, which mixes trains onto and off of the highest speed tracks (some run all "high", some run all "normal", and many run mixed"), like this schematic:
high-speed-rail-schedule.jpg
 
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

2 questions on the subject of train cars:

Would it make more sense to pick a single vendor for both the GL and RL/OL contracts? I think both Siemens and Bombardier make both types of vehicles (and have long track records), and if they're going to build a factory in MA for final assembly it just seems more efficient to have everything coming from 1 place. It doesn't seem to me that that factory would be all that short-lived, either, since IIRC big vehicle contracts are served gradually over many years.

Also, it makes sense to me that as long as you're making the cars interoperable across lines, you should change the paint scheme on these cars (less line color) to be easier to modify if they were to shift later. The current all-red/all-orange scheme seems expensive and time-consuming to repaint. Also, it looks cartoonish and amateur to me, but that's personal taste. If the T ever starts widely branching its HRT lines in the future, the destination becomes a better identifier than the line color anyway.

Well...they wouldn't shift lines. Red, Orange, and Blue still have different carbody lengths. We're talking identical guts, identical systems, identical parts, identical maintenance. The shells on top of them and interior/floor dimensions would still be unique to each line out of necessity. They don't interconnect so there's no need to standardize carbodies. And there's very little cost difference if the only thing different about the cars is the shell on top.

That plan to transfer 24 Blue 0600's to Orange was contingent on them opting to send both those Blue cars and the existing Orange cars through a midlife overhaul to net another 15 years of service, instead of going all-new. They would've cannibalized parts from the scrapped 0600's for the combined rebuilds and hoarded the remainder as a parts source. Economics of the rebuild plan didn't wash out because the Blue fleet was worse off than they anticipated. Now they have no need to ever mix fleets...Orange will get the extra new cars to solve the fleet shortage.

Light rail's a whole other animal with whole different manufacturing needs than heavy rail, so no way would they or could they do a combo order across modes. There's some good Bombardier and Alstom trolleys out there, but Kinki-Sharyo (of Type 7 fame) is about as good as it gets for LRV's. They need to win that one. Even if it is another @#$% custom job because the T won't fix the couple silly little clearance pinches keeping us from using off-shelf trolleys.

Agreed. However, even with state sponsored Amtrak service, the state would have to pony up for equipment, I believe. A number of midwestern states are buying new cars for their Amtrak services. Also agree with F-Line that the idea of riding to Springfield in a commuter rail line makes my back hurt. Likewise with a ride to the Cape, but at least there will be a bar car to provide relief.

Not necessarily. They've still got 15 mothballed P40 diesels in storage rated 110 MPH, and the current Springfield Shuttle service goes away when NHHS commuter rail starts. Coach equipment's going to shift around as some of those new orders for the midwest end up sending more Amfleets back east. Equipment's always going to be at a premium, but they're not standing still in the face of demand. There'll be reinforcements on the roster by 2017.

But, yeah...Amfleets, please, not commuter rail equipment. 2 hours is most people's breaking point for sitting in a CR coach.

I'm not sure If they have in mind a through run from Boston to New Haven or New York or an out-and-back run to Springfield only. With the BOS-SPG only you might get more trains in a day but with NY you get more potential passengers and Mass. might not have to pay for the whole thing. I wonder if a casino in Palmer or Springfield would influence this project.

This definitely isn't HSR no matter what their PowerPoints say. The Inlands would simply take the regular D.C.-Springfield Regionals and send them to Worcester, Framingham, and Boston like they used to. Probably with fewer CT stops when NHHS commuter rail lets them shed some less useful intermediates. Springfield Line's getting a speed bump from Class 4 (80 MPH) to Class 5 (90 MPH) with alleged stretches of Class 6 (110 MPH). B&A's a viable extension of that if it goes from Class 3 (60 MPH) to Class 4 (80 MPH), even if the curvature doesn't allow 80 all the way. If they're talking about skipping Class 4 altogether and going straight for 5...even better. That'll make a big difference on the very straight Springfield-Palmer segment even if Palmer-Worcester's always constrained. I would *hope* if that's the talk then this also stretches inside MBTA territory and includes fixing the inside-Framingham horror show. That would be figgin' awesome for the portion of the Worcester schedule that skips everything inside 128.

State-sponsored service could mean either augmenting the Regionals for the MA mileage to draw a few more continuing trains Amtrak would otherwise be satisfied terminating in Springfield. Or it could be a SPR Shuttle type thing terminating in New Haven. But not a short Boston-Springfield shuttle because Amtrak doesn't have a layover facility in Springfield. So they might be jumping the gun a little bit if they haven't talked to CT first. Of course...we know Patrick, Murray, and their direct reports are going to wrap this sell job in Purple Line colors because they're predictably shameless. But chances are when this gets revised down out of la-la land it becomes an Amtrak with some degree of state-sponsored augmentation.

I just hope we aren't talking Ludlow, Palmer, Brookfield infills until they find a way to utilize to the hilt the brand spankin' new stations they're building in Holyoke, Northampton, and Greenfield. The populace out there has got a clear preference for where they want to see better local service first.
 

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