General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

bakgwailo said:
Wasn't the entire point of this law to try to spur TOD in suburbs where T stations exist, as Boston has been shouldering the brunt of new housing built for the region?
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The entire point of the law is to get the Weston Whopper built. Everything else is a side effect.
 
Update on the MBTA hiring spree.

www.wbur.org

The T needs dispatchers, and will continue to dangle $10,000 sign-on bonuses to hire them

With train service still running at diminished levels, staffing efforts in the MBTA's operations control center have plateaued since December, and the agency will continue to offer a $10,000 sign-on bonus through June to try and attract the dispatchers critical to reversing months-long service cuts.
www.wbur.org www.wbur.org

The MBTA is still short of 7 dispatchers. There is also a shortage of rail motorpersons as well.

The MBTA is currently short by 349 bus operators. Given that the MBTA has less buses today than in 1972, the MBTA is likely running much less transit service than it did in 1972, today, overall, across the entire region.
 
Delvin4519 said:
Update on the MBTA hiring spree.

www.wbur.org

The T needs dispatchers, and will continue to dangle $10,000 sign-on bonuses to hire them

With train service still running at diminished levels, staffing efforts in the MBTA's operations control center have plateaued since December, and the agency will continue to offer a $10,000 sign-on bonus through June to try and attract the dispatchers critical to reversing months-long service cuts.
www.wbur.org www.wbur.org

The MBTA is still short of 7 dispatchers. There is also a shortage of rail motorpersons as well.

The MBTA is currently short by 349 bus operators. Given that the MBTA has less buses today than in 1972, the MBTA is likely running much less transit service than it did in 1972, today, overall, across the entire region.
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I mean they are on a worse than pandemic schedule so... yeah, service is pretty bad. Although I again contend the fewer buses than 1972 thing is a bit misleading (although the driver shortage isn't).
 
bakgwailo said:
I mean they are on a worse than pandemic schedule so... yeah, service is pretty bad. Although I again contend the fewer buses than 1972 thing is a bit misleading (although the driver shortage isn't).
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When the Green Line E branch‘s southern portion, and the Washington Street elevated were rerouted to the Orange Line Southwest Corridor, replacement transit service was needed along Washington St. and Huntington Ave. These corridors lost their rail service, and therefore, some good amount of buses are needed to run on these two corridors to replace rail service, if rail service isn't coming back to these two corridors anytime soon.

The Orange Line Southwest Corridor opened after 1972, since in 1972, these corridors were still served by rapid transit and streetcars, but no longer.
 
Delvin4519 said:
When the Green Line E branch‘s southern portion, and the Washington Street elevated were rerouted to the Orange Line Southwest Corridor, replacement transit service was needed along Washington St. and Huntington Ave. These corridors lost their rail service, and therefore, some good amount of buses are needed to run on these two corridors to replace rail service, if rail service isn't coming back to these two corridors anytime soon.

The Orange Line Southwest Corridor opened after 1972, since in 1972, these corridors were still served by rapid transit and streetcars, but no longer.
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The "worse than 1972" line is a bit misleading because a lot of bus (or trackless or streetcar) service was reoriented to the rail rapid transit network since then, in particular with the OL North of Haymarket, RL to Alewife, and now the GLX projects. But, it's mind-boggling that this region doesn't have more suburban local and express routes in the 128 belt as those routes were reoriented.

Since '72: [+ = extensions or increases in rail rapid transit service; -- = subtractions or decreases in rail rapid transit service]
+ OL North (1975-77)
+ RL Quincy to Braintree (1980)
+ RL to Alewife (1984-85)
+ OL South (1987)
+ Red Line 6-car-ing (1988)
-- GL E "temporary" cut to Brigham Circle then Heath St loop (1989)
+ GLX (2022-23)
 
as02143 said:
The "worse than 1972" line is a bit misleading because a lot of bus (or trackless or streetcar) service was reoriented to the rail rapid transit network since then, in particular with the OL North of Haymarket, RL to Alewife, and now the GLX projects. But, it's mind-boggling that this region doesn't have more suburban local and express routes in the 128 belt as those routes were reoriented.

Since '72: [+ = extensions or increases in rail rapid transit service; -- = subtractions or decreases in rail rapid transit service]
+ OL North (1975-77)
+ RL Quincy to Braintree (1980)
+ RL to Alewife (1984-85)
+ OL South (1987)
+ Red Line 6-car-ing (1988)
-- GL E "temporary" cut to Brigham Circle then Heath St loop (1989)
+ GLX (2022-23)
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OL South actually counts as a minus for me as far as bus fleet requirements are concerned. The Southwest Corridor didn't have buses running before AFAIK, but the removal of rapid transit to Nubian directly necessitated the 49/SL5 bus with a substantial fleet, plus the extension of many routes from Nubian to Ruggles.
 
Teban54 said:
OL South actually counts as a minus for me as far as bus fleet requirements are concerned. The Southwest Corridor didn't have buses running before AFAIK, but the removal of rapid transit to Nubian directly necessitated the 49/SL5 bus with a substantial fleet, plus the extension of many routes from Nubian to Ruggles.
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@as02143 summed things up pretty well for what I was thinking. Did leave out the Blue Line expansion to 6 cars. On the OL relocation, yes I fully agree, although it did go in the middle of the E and old El, with just the 39 being needed to directly replace E service (arguable for the better), and, 100% there was no real replacement on the EL especially at Nubian. They did do the Silver Line which are buses with significantly more capacity than a bus from 1972. And when you look at the fleet numbers of 1972 from then to now: there were 1,200 buses in 1972, and today there at 1,121. A difference of 6%, or 79 buses. The MBTA of today has more than 79 buses that have higher capacity that buses from 1972. So.. again, this meme of fewer buses than 1972 is kind of strange, and I certainly think the shortage of drivers of the existing bus fleet (and thus fewer drivers than 1972) is the much bigger problem.
 
bakgwailo said:
@as02143 summed things up pretty well for what I was thinking. Did leave out the Blue Line expansion to 6 cars. On the OL relocation, yes I fully agree, although it did go in the middle of the E and old El, with just the 39 being needed to directly replace E service (arguable for the better), and, 100% there was no real replacement on the EL especially at Nubian. They did do the Silver Line which are buses with significantly more capacity than a bus from 1972. And when you look at the fleet numbers of 1972 from then to now: there were 1,200 buses in 1972, and today there at 1,121. A difference of 6%, or 79 buses. The MBTA of today has more than 79 buses that have higher capacity that buses from 1972. So.. again, this meme of fewer buses than 1972 is kind of strange, and I certainly think the shortage of drivers of the existing bus fleet (and thus fewer drivers than 1972) is the much bigger problem.
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I don't know why I always forget the upgrade to 6cars on the BL.
 
Teban54 said:
OL South actually counts as a minus for me as far as bus fleet requirements are concerned. The Southwest Corridor didn't have buses running before AFAIK, but the removal of rapid transit to Nubian directly necessitated the 49/SL5 bus with a substantial fleet, plus the extension of many routes from Nubian to Ruggles.
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This. With Nubian station losing rapid transit. A lot of Nubian bus routes had to be extended to reach the nearest busway viable along the Southwest Corridor. E route extension means a longer trip for all Nubian based bus routes, and a longer trip therefore means reduced frequency. In order to return frequency to original levels with a now longer route to the Southwest Corridor from Nubian, all Nubian routes would require additional buses.

Washington Street between Nubian and Forest Hills also needed replacement bus service in addition to the segment of Washington Street from Nubian to Downtown.

In addition, the Orange Line originally ran to Everett, with the Orange Libe rerouted to Wellington Station, all Everett based bus routes had to extend further from the Everett rotary at Rt 16/Rt 99, and continue an extra mile or 2 to reach either Wellington Station or Sullivan Station. Therefore, additional buses were needed for Everett based bus routes, as Everett lost its only rapid transit station along Lower Broadway within its city limits. You can’t just leave Everett based bus routes just dangling at former Orange Line Everett terminus where the Orange Line formerly ran to in 1972. These bus routes have to be operated longer and further to reach the Orange Line now. In another case, Route 101 was extended further to reach Malden OL station as opposed to its previous terminal in East Medford.

All Silver Line buses also were counted toward the total number of buses the MBTA has currently today present day.

Therefore, all Everett based bus routes, Nubian based bus routes, and the Huntington Ave. corridor all required additional buses in order to reach rapid transit today, as opposed to 1972. In some cases, this may cancel out consolidated bus routes along the Red Line or in Malden.

For example, Route 77 still operates to Harvard at very high frequencies and does not terminate at either Porter or Alewife. Therefore, it draws a good chunk of capacity to run buses the full length to Harvard from Porter at high frequencies, alongside the 96, even though the Red Line already has this new connection. The only outer bus routes that terminate at Davis or Alewife are minuscule, only the 62/76, 67, 94, and the 350.

The Green Line Extension’s bus routes have not been consolidated yet. We still need buses to operate across Somerville today as the network stands currently, even with the operator shortage. Route 80 is still scheduled to run almost all of its pre-GLX scheduled trips, and Route 87 and 88 are still operating to Lechmere.
 
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bakgwailo said:
@as02143 summed things up pretty well for what I was thinking. Did leave out the Blue Line expansion to 6 cars. On the OL relocation, yes I fully agree, although it did go in the middle of the E and old El, with just the 39 being needed to directly replace E service (arguable for the better), and, 100% there was no real replacement on the EL especially at Nubian. They did do the Silver Line which are buses with significantly more capacity than a bus from 1972. And when you look at the fleet numbers of 1972 from then to now: there were 1,200 buses in 1972, and today there at 1,121. A difference of 6%, or 79 buses. The MBTA of today has more than 79 buses that have higher capacity that buses from 1972. So.. again, this meme of fewer buses than 1972 is kind of strange, and I certainly think the shortage of drivers of the existing bus fleet (and thus fewer drivers than 1972) is the much bigger problem.
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The Silver Line was the replacement service for the Orange Line El. While arriculated buses have the capacity to carry more passengers then previous buses, articulated buses are typically operated on the rail replacement corridors, such as the 39, or the Silver Line, and the SL1 and SL3 use the Ted Williams Tunnel, which did not exist in 1972.

Since most, if not all, articulated buses are operated on bus routes, where most of these bus routes that use articulated buses either did not exist, or were previously rail routes in 1972, this means that actually, much of the articulated bus fleet should be removed from the calculation of how many MBTA buses there are to operate the same bus corridors that existed in 1972.

This means that the 79 fewer buses today may be greater, as these articulated buses operate on bus corridors which were not present in 1972.

Theres also the case of increased traffic congestion, meaning more buses are needed to operate the same frequency than decades ago. For example, a Route 93 trip outbound from downtown was scheduled to take 19 minutes at 2:00 PM on a weekday in summer 2017. Despite an increase in work from home away from downtown, and construction of new bus lanes between State Street Downtown and Keany Square in the North End in both directions in 2021, the same trip is now scheduled to take 30 minutes at 2:00 PM on a weekday as of 2023. This is over 50% longer in a little over 5 years. Frequency was reduced and headways between buses more than doubled in length from every 15 minutes to every 40, partially worsened by the operator shortage. Another part of this is worsened due to the ongoing construction at the bridge, so it is a more extreme example in a such a short time.

Today, there is a higher population in the Boston area than in 1972, from 3.9 million to 4.9 million. This means more car traffic, and slower travel times for buses, meaning more buses needed to run the same route at the same frequency, but there are fewer buses today. This is especially with much of today’s articulated buses running rail replacement routes on the Silver Line and the 39, and the new Ted Williams Tunnel.
 
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Delvin4519 said:
The Silver Line was the replacement service for the Orange Line El. While arriculated buses have the capacity to carry more passengers then previous buses, articulated buses are typically operated on the rail replacement corridors, such as the 39, or the Silver Line, and the SL1 and SL3 use the Ted Williams Tunnel, which did not exist in 1972.

Since most, if not all, articulated buses are operated on bus routes, where most of these bus routes that use articulated buses either did not exist, or were previously rail routes in 1972, this means that actually, much of the articulated bus fleet should be removed from the calculation of how many MBTA buses there are to operate the same bus corridors that existed in 1972.

This means that the 79 fewer buses today may be greater, as these articulated buses operate on bus corridors which were not present in 1972.

Theres also the case of increased traffic congestion, meaning more buses are needed to operate the same frequency than decades ago. For example, a Route 93 trip outbound from downtown was scheduled to take 19 minutes at 2:00 PM on a weekday in summer 2017. Despite an increase in work from home away from downtown, and construction of new bus lanes between State Street Downtown and Keany Square in the North End in both directions in 2021, the same trip is now scheduled to take 30 minutes at 2:00 PM on a weekday as of 2023. This is over 50% longer in a little over 5 years. Frequency was reduced and headways between buses more than doubled in length from every 15 minutes to every 40, partially worsened by the operator shortage. Another part of this is worsened due to the ongoing construction at the bridge, so it is a more extreme example in a such a short time.

Today, there is a higher population in the Boston area than in 1972, from 3.9 million to 4.9 million. This means more car traffic, and slower travel times for buses, meaning more buses needed to run the same route at the same frequency, but there are fewer buses today. This is especially with much of today’s articulated buses running rail replacement routes on the Silver Line and the 39, and the new Ted Williams Tunnel.
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You might have forgotten the 28 also has articulated buses.
 
Teban54 said:
You might have forgotten the 28 also has articulated buses.
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Out of all the routes articulated buses operate on, most routes operate in areas that either previously did not see bus service, or were previously rail routes.

28 - (introduced in the wake of the Orange Line Southwest Corridor rerouting, overlaps with other historical bus routes)
39 - (rail replacement bus service)
SL4 - (rail replacement bus service)
SL5 - (rail replacement bus service)
SL1 - (operates via Ted Williams Tunnel, this connection/bus route did not exist in 1972)
SL3 - (operates via Ted Williams Tunnel, this connection/bus route did not exist in 1972)
SL2 - (overlaps with other historical bus routes, and shorter than other Silver Line routes, but this route provides far more service than demand warrants)
SLW - (Silver Line short turns, limited span of service, a very short route and relatively low frequency)

Of all of these, the 39, SL4, and SL5 are rail replacement bus services with rail service changes since 1972, and the SL1/SL3 could not have existed in 1972. This leaves the SL2, SLW, and 28, but of these, the SL2 and SLW are short routes, and the SLW is a limited span of service with lower frequency.

Therefore, the number of articulated buses should remove the number of buses needed to operate the 39, SL4, SL5, SL1, and the SL3 from the calculation of number of buses the MBTA has today, compared to 1972, to run buses on the same bus corridors and exclide those that didn't exist in 1972.

This leaves the 28, and the short SL2 route, and an even shorter SLW route, that has limited service, using articulated buses on routes that had historical bus service in 1972, in one form or another.

Here are some service changes since 1972 and their impact on the number of buses needed (looking at modern day bus routes). +/- is based on whether the number of buses needs to increase (+ more buses for longer bus routes to reach rail transit) or decrease (- less buses with new rapid transit extensions close by).

+/- Orange Line North 1975-1977 = Everett based routes extended 1 or 2 miles from Rt16/Rt99 Jct. to Sullivan or Wellington Station (8 today). Medford based bus routes shortened to Wellington (3 today), outer core suburban based bus routes shortened to Malden (4 today). Rt 101 bus 1.5 mile extension from East Medford to Malden Station (1). In aggregate totals, some bus routes needed extension to rapid transit (9 routes today), and some shortened (7 routes today).
- Red Line Quincy to Braintree 1980 = Dramatic shortening of much of the South Shore Quincy based bus routes. Frequent rapid transit several miles closer to Quincy/Braintree allows for higher capacity to meet potential higher demand for buses to Quincy Center/Braintree from outer suburbs, with a shorter bus route to rapid transit.
- Red Line Alewife 1985 = Limited shortening of only a few limited infrequent routes, 2 long outer suburban routes and 2 short inner core routes, 62/76, 67, 94, and the 350. The longer and more frequent 77/96 continue to run the full length from Porter to Harvard.
+ Orange Line South 1987 = Rail replacement buses needed along Washington Street, all Nubian bus routes extended an additional mile to Ruggles and Egleston bus routes extended .6 or 1.6 miles to Jackson or Ruggles. Given that several of these extended routes are very high frequency routes, alongside the Washington St. corridor, a lot more buses are now needed. Articulated buses used along SL Washington St. and the newly introduced Route 28 bus route.
+ Green Line Arborway (tempoary) cut 1989 = Rail replacement buses needed along Huntington Ave. in Jamacia Plain, would later use some articulated buses.
+ Ted Williams Tunnel/Silver Line Transitway 1995/2004 = New connections between South Station, Seaport, and East Boston/Chelsea, using much of the articulated buses on a new origin/destination pair that didn't exist in 1972 by bus.
=0 GLX 2022 = No bus routing changes were made, and won't be so until a phased BNRD is fully implemented sometime in 2028 or later. Therefore, the same number of buses are needed to run Somerville bus routes the full length to Lechmere, under almost full pre-GLX bus schedules, as of early 2023.
+? 6 car trains on Red/Blue Line 1988/1999/2011 = Higher subway capacity may have the potential to induce more rider demand for bus services to rapid transit.
+ Additional population and car traffic congestion 1972/2023 = More buses needed to run a longer, slower, car traffic clogged bus routes today than in 1972, at the same frequency. Note that oftentimes, suburban bus routes were eliminated and buses often redirected to run inner city routes that saw worsening traffic congestion over decades. A majority of bus lanes were built after COVID, and therefore, during the bus operator shortage.
- Elimination of suburban bus routes. 1972/2021 = Many routes were often reduced to 1 or 2 peak only trips before outright elimination, may also be due to budget cuts. In addition, an increase of WFH during the pandemic resulted in lower ridership along suburban or commuter/express buses, meaning some routes were suspended. An operator shortage in the wake of the pandemic has also resulted in some suburban routes being suspended. BNRD is slated to reduce the amount of express buses in the North Shore in upcoming years.
 
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HenryAlan said:
All three heavy rail lines got the 4-6 upgrade. That's a huge increase in capacity.
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Orange's was 1987 with the opening of the SW Corridor. Red's was 1988 with the lengthening of the last of the downtown stations.

It took till the more recent One-Person Ops (OPTO) era for them to stop cutting the consists back to 4 (>40 years ago, even 2) on the off-peak and weekends. Once it no longer affected staffing, they started keeping them at max length all the time. Before that, you could occasionally find yourself on a standing-room-only overstuffed 4-pack on a Friday/Saturday night or before/after a Sox game or Garden event.
 
I haven't been able to get a straight answer to a seemingly simple question: what is the cause of the Red Line's slow zones?
 
I wish the comment fields were not truncated. I’m curious about the RL NB 25mph slow zone between Park and Charles/MGH. Is that due to Beacon Hill folks complaining?
 
Jahvon09 said:
According to them, no part of the Orange Line was supposed to close any more. They're just dragging their feet with this supposedly-done-in-a-month crap!! :mad::mad::mad::mad:
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I don't think they ever said that the Orange Line would never close anymore for work. Even if they had said that and intended it, it'd just rot from insufficient maintenance until they had to shut it down again.
 
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