General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

Extension of the system just aren't going to happen anymore. We just don't do those level of projects anymore. And in the United States especially these places that have these legacy systems they don't do these projects anymore. So I think, spending too much time focusing on a particular expansion prject, I think can be very distracting.

I really wonder how the Blue/Red connector factors into this statement. It would be tremendously disappointing if the Blue/Red connector gets pushed back even further. Same with the GLX to Mystic Valley Parkway, both of these extensions have been on hold for long enough. I completely acknowledge that it's unrealistic to consider other extensions in the short term considering the numerous issues plaguing the T at the moment. However, projects as critical as Blue/Red or as small as GLX to MVP should be completed in tandem with the maintenance efforts, instead of being (potentially) indefinitely postponed. I seriously hope that the long-term end goal of the Phillip Eng era of the MBTA is repairing the T to a point where long-discussed extensions like BLX to Lynn become a realistic possibility.
 
I think at this time, that the T has an awful lot on its plate. What with all this new stuff failing right before the commuters' eyes!! Looks like crappy construction has come to rear its ugly head all over the place!! :eek:
 
I mean, the MBTA is expanding commuter rail right now. It's called South Coast Rail, and the Green Line changes are looking to be pretty huge even if they're not "expansion."

GLX was a barebones operation when Dalton took over but when it became a priority of the administration to get it done they beefed up. Any permanent staff they have now could be scaled down again like it was in the 90s / 00s if the politics swing that way, unlike maintenance which always needs to happen it's not like just having the staff means they'll be good at expanding the system.

I'm not very worried about their capacity to do expansion so long as it's a political priority (which maintenance wasn't). That's the rub.
 
Yeah, didn't they cut back on spending for the GLX several times because they thought the line was too expensive? So they knocked off a few stops to save some money? At first, it was going to be scrapped all together. :unsure:
 
What I got from her comments was that there certainly will be expansion to the overall system. That, as well as the many required projects to bring the system to a state of good repair, will certainly keep the agency busy. No project experience is bad experience, whether it be transit extensions or new facilities to supplement existing service. I don't necessarily agree that the MBTA shouldn't focus on large capital expansion projects, just that it's good to have someone who is very concerned with system improvement, which is much needed right now.

In my opinion, the order of operations for the T should be this:
  1. State of good repair/safety improvements for system
  2. BNRD/Bus electrification and improvements
  3. Commuter rail electrification/urban rail for Beverly, Fairmount, and Westwood/Rt 128 (unfortunately, I think this will take 10 years, though it shouldn't)
  4. Green line extensions/improvements for Type 10's
  5. Basically all other rapid transit extensions
This won't necessarily happen in that order timeline-wise, but I believe that's how it should be prioritized, and I also believe that's how it is being prioritized. If the T multitasks on all of these at once, it will take additional resources, including a whole lot more money that won't be there unless the federal gov't really helps out (which, let's be honest, doesn't look likely).

I'm really not sure where Red-Blue fits on the priority list, but I'm guessing we will need to be patient to see it's completion. Believe me, I want to see a revolutionized system as much as everyone on this board, this is just how I see things playing out over the next 20 years from my transit fan perspective/experience working in the AEC industry.
 
Yeah, didn't they cut back on spending for the GLX several times because they thought the line was too expensive? So they knocked off a few strops to save some money? At first, it was going to be scrapped all together. :unsure:
Back at the roughly the start of the Barker administration, it was discovered GLX was projecting to go overbudget by 20%. Here in the forums, I remember us noticing how each part of the project are all costing 20% more than it should - imply contractor overcharge.

> Baker order a freeze on GLX,
> Spent a year with an Engineering firm who value-engineered a stripped down version to fit within the budget
> The new plan was a striped down GLX including shoving Route 16 as a Phase 2 if it stayed within budget
> Somerville+Cambridge threw in a $75 million to also help bolster the project
> They presented to the FMCB, I watch that livestream surprised to see Stephanie Pollack (the woman back in her youth was the one who got GLX as a legal mandate) putting out feelers with talking points to kill GLX
> Got pleasantly surprised the rest of the board wanted to go forward
> Went out to new bidding, a joint venture of various local companies won as GLX Constructors
> They built it within budget (returning the $75 million)
> Nothing seem to happen with the old contractors (it was WSK?)
> Route 16 has not moved despite it stayed within budget
> The whole narrow track debacle thing but it maybe it will be fully resolved by mid-November with GLX Contractors still existing and capable to do it
> We are here
 
I really wonder how the Blue/Red connector factors into this statement. It would be tremendously disappointing if the Blue/Red connector gets pushed back even further. Same with the GLX to Mystic Valley Parkway, both of these extensions have been on hold for long enough. I completely acknowledge that it's unrealistic to consider other extensions in the short term considering the numerous issues plaguing the T at the moment. However, projects as critical as Blue/Red or as small as GLX to MVP should be completed in tandem with the maintenance efforts, instead of being (potentially) indefinitely postponed. I seriously hope that the long-term end goal of the Phillip Eng era of the MBTA is repairing the T to a point where long-discussed extensions like BLX to Lynn become a realistic possibility.

Charlie in thread specifically about Red-Blue states it would happen if/when it gets support from the Feds. Thus the most likely scenario is a through a Federal transportation grant. Which means where the political wind blow in the next year or so will be critical. Right now the winds are still favorable. FTA seems to be set to grant NYC $3.4 billion which my understanding is from previous budgets being passed as anyone who follow current politics shows nothing is getting passed.

But if that current environment continues, or worse, it drags the other key alignment down (like through results of next year's election), then nothing will move for years if we need the Feds for funding. Probably only turning favorable again as soon as the state turns unfavorable again and when everything turns favorable the whole planning to be redone again. The last sentence is an ironic musing.

This is where enthusiasm in key positions like the position Tibbits-Nutt is extremely critical. She might not be hostile to expansion, but she may well create self-fulfilling prophesies by lackluster effort. And maybe a brick wall instead of an ally that would help get through the real brick walls in certain context too.
 
In my opinion, the order of operations for the T should be this:
  1. State of good repair/safety improvements for system
  2. BNRD/Bus electrification and improvements
  3. Commuter rail electrification/urban rail for Beverly, Fairmount, and Westwood/Rt 128 (unfortunately, I think this will take 10 years, though it shouldn't)
  4. Green line extensions/improvements for Type 10's
  5. Basically all other rapid transit extensions
This won't necessarily happen in that order timeline-wise, but I believe that's how it should be prioritized, and I also believe that's how it is being prioritized. If the T multitasks on all of these at once, it will take additional resources, including a whole lot more money that won't be there unless the federal gov't really helps out (which, let's be honest, doesn't look likely).

I agree with your list if you include the following in the “State of good repair/safety improvements for system”:
  • Fare transformation
  • North Station Draw 1 Bridge Replacement
  • Longfellow Approach
  • Red / Orange Line Vehicles
Maybe I’d call that category “safety, reliability, and modernization.”
 
Just my personal opinion, but I've always had issues with this kind of mindset because:

The current shitshow on maintenance and service quality was because the T didn't do proper maintenance for so long, to the point where nobody knows how to do it and the institutional knowledge is totally lost.

The same also applies to network expansions and planning.

Keeping a stream of extension projects under design and/or construction ensures that people don't forget how to do them. We had that happen before GLX, which was why things were so out of whack there until John Dalton had to come along and bring in the knowledge to do transit projects. Let's not lose that until another generation is gone.
Totally agree.

To add to that, there is a timing aspect to the planning too. As others have pointed out, it will be hard to fund any big expansions without lots of new federal funding. We don't know when that will come, but there are signs it could be sooner rather than later. There's been a bit more federal investment in the past few years, there's been population shifts back into the cities the past couple of decades, and even cities in red states are building out streetcar networks. Public transit is having a bit of a moment, and a new era of federal money might be one election away. Maybe. We don't know. But whenever it does happen, we actually need to be prepared with inhouse expertise and plans at the ready. It will be a huge waste of an opportunity if there's a ton of federal money available and the MBTA is too broken to even use it effectively.

I've recommended the book "The Great American Transit Disaster," which in part looks at how cities used the money from the last era of federal funding for transit in the ~1970s. Boston was pretty on its game, it was ready for the money, and built RL to Alewife, RL to Braintree, OL to Oak Grove, plus bought up and started operating commuter rail all in the span of a decade. That's massive. Other cities (the book points to Baltimore and Atlanta) had totally destroyed their public transit systems by that point. They still got federal money. But with no inhouse expertise, the planning fell mostly to politicians, who chose some high "prestige" but probably low value projects. They built expensive subway lines through low density when they really, really needed a functioning bus network. Project costs skyrocketed because, again, no inhouse expertise. That era of federal funding ended and some of these cities didn't have much to show for it.

I don't think Boston transit could possible get to a point as bad as Atlanta in the 1960s. But still, whenever federal funding becomes available, it will be so much better to have plans ready to go, and the organization to pull it off.
 
Tin foil hat time: Are they extending the closures so they can reopen without speed restrictions? I thought it usually takes a few days to clear them entirely after major track work.
I don't think that's "tin foil hat" territory at all. From a PR standpoint is it better to open earlier and have speed restrictions for a few days, or is it better to keep it closed longer and open without speed restrictions? The first several high-profile shut downs followed the former approach, and the slow zones lasted longer than anticipated which frustrated everyone. So I'm sure there's pressure at the MBTA (and from the Gov's Office) to "get it right" before reopening, even if it means extending the closures.
 
I don't think that's "tin foil hat" territory at all. From a PR standpoint is it better to open earlier and have speed restrictions for a few days, or is it better to keep it closed longer and open without speed restrictions? The first several high-profile shut downs followed the former approach, and the slow zones lasted longer than anticipated which frustrated everyone. So I'm sure there's pressure at the MBTA (and from the Gov's Office) to "get it right" before reopening, even if it means extending the closures.
And when public opinion about these shutdowns is everything, which it is because there will be a lot more of them, (I'd expect 2 week shutdowns on the Braintree Branch and the trunk north of Kendall at a minimum, I wouldn't be surprised if OL service gets extended night closures north of N. Station as well.) It is critical to get it right.
 
And when public opinion about these shutdowns is everything, which it is because there will be a lot more of them, (I'd expect 2 week shutdowns on the Braintree Branch and the trunk north of Kendall at a minimum, I wouldn't be surprised if OL service gets extended night closures north of N. Station as well.) It is critical to get it right.
They've been doing weekend shutdowns on the Braintree branch for months now, since the summer began IIRC. While I won't be surprised if a Braintree shutdown occurs, I also wonder if they used a different approach there, and opted for frequent but less impactful shutdowns as opposed to a short but drastic one.

North of Kendall hasn't gotten much love since Eng, so that has a higher likelihood of a full shutdown.
 
They've been doing weekend shutdowns on the Braintree branch for months now, since the summer began IIRC. While I won't be surprised if a Braintree shutdown occurs, I also wonder if they used a different approach there, and opted for frequent but less impactful shutdowns as opposed to a short but drastic one.

North of Kendall hasn't gotten much love since Eng, so that has a higher likelihood of a full shutdown.
Given that Braintree-JFK still takes ~50% longer than it did before the great slowing (And it wasn't in great shape in the first place, JFK-NQ was at a crawl even before.) I think more drastic action is warranted at this point.
 
Tin foil hat time: Are they extending the closures so they can reopen without speed restrictions? I thought it usually takes a few days to clear them entirely after major track work.
Are we sure that is actually the case, though? TransitMatter's slow zone tracker is still showing slowdowns on the Ashmont branch for today (unless I am misinterpreting something).
 
Are we sure that is actually the case, though? TransitMatter's slow zone tracker is still showing slowdowns on the Ashmont branch for today (unless I am misinterpreting something).
Multi-day trend in October from JFK/UMass to Ashmont:
1698690613935.png


Edit: If we look at the past 2 years instead:
1698690703843.png

The median travel time so far today is 11m 56s. While that's a huge improvement from earlier this month, it's still longer than the historic low from Dec 2021 to Apr 2022, when the average seemed to be 8m 50s.

Here's JFK/UMass to Shawmut, which removes the anomaly of March 11, 2023 (and generally has more reliable data due to funky things with terminals):
1698690945831.png
 
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Seems like there IS light at the end of the tunnel, as the MBTA finishes up work on the Red & Mattapan LINES!!!!

 
They've been doing weekend shutdowns on the Braintree branch for months now, since the summer began IIRC. While I won't be surprised if a Braintree shutdown occurs, I also wonder if they used a different approach there, and opted for frequent but less impactful shutdowns as opposed to a short but drastic one.

North of Kendall hasn't gotten much love since Eng, so that has a higher likelihood of a full shutdown.

Harvard Square is my home station and I use the Red Line regularly, but I would welcome a full closure north of Kendall for a while if it actually fixed the slow zones. At this point, the crawl from Central to Harvard has gotten so slow that I have genuinely chosen to walk because it is faster for any destination that is more than one block from the station exit. This is over an inter-station stretch that is almost a mile long!
 

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