General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

The Orange Line is now back. Hopefully we can see some good results in the very few days we have before the federal election that's looking more increasingly grim.

Typically the first few days always have signal problems for some unknown reason. No early morning data from TransitMatters at the moment.

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So like, if the tracks are in much better shape on the orange line, what are the odds of increasing the operating speed sometime in the next say 5 years?
 
sean99090900 said:
So like, if the tracks are in much better shape on the orange line, what are the odds of increasing the operating speed sometime in the next say 5 years?
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Not impossible, (According to one railroad.net poster the max speed used to be 50, no source provided) but it's probably not a priority either. The only place you'd really see significant time savings is between Malden Center and Wellington as that's the only place with stops over 1 mile apart. For reference, NQ and JFK are 3.6 miles apart. Just to model the time savings we'll use R160s from NYC since I can immediately find numbers for them. They have an average acceleration of 2.5 MPH/s, which means that they take .14 miles to accelerate to 50 MPH, compared to around .09 miles to accelerate to 40 MPH. I'll assume a similar distance for deceleration because I'm lazy, it's actually a bit shorter. Add a few seconds onto the time savings if you'd like. So with a maximum speed of 40 MPH, JFK-NQ takes ~5:40, but with a max speed of 50 MPH it goes down to ~4:40. Malden Center and Wellington are 1.7 miles apart, so running the numbers again gets you 2:50 at 40 MPH, or 2:20 at 50 MPH. For stops spaced .5 miles apart like on the SW corridor, it's 1:01 at 40 MPH vs 0:56 at 50 MPH.

Assuming an average 10 second penalty between stops, excluding the downtown stops which are closer than 1500ft between them and with the 30 seconds for Malden Center-Wellington, that gives a very rough estimate for the total end-to-end time penalty for the Orange Line of about 2 minutes. Not really a big deal, and less than the ~2:30 just on the Braintree branch of the Red Line.
 
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Standing at Sullivan on the inbound platform and there’s two CR coaches parked on track 21 (IIRC). I’ve never seen MBTA equipment parked there ever since I’ve been coming to this station.

Anyone know what gives?
 

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North Shore said:
Standing at Sullivan on the inbound platform and there’s two CR coaches parked on track 21 (IIRC). I’ve never seen MBTA equipment parked there ever since I’ve been coming to this station.

Anyone know what gives?
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They might be going for scrap at Schnitzer Steel in Everett via CSX. 4 others in the retired 1600-series Bombardier cab cars were scrapped there earlier this year.
 
TheRatmeister said:
Not impossible, (According to one railroad.net poster the max speed used to be 50, no source provided) but it's probably not a priority either. The only place you'd really see significant time savings is between Malden Center and Wellington as that's the only place with stops over 1 mile apart. For reference, NQ and JFK are 3.6 miles apart. Just to model the time savings we'll use R160s from NYC since I can immediately find numbers for them. They have an average acceleration of 2.5 MPH/s, which means that they take .14 miles to accelerate to 50 MPH, compared to around .09 miles to accelerate to 40 MPH. I'll assume a similar distance for deceleration because I'm lazy, it's actually a bit shorter. Add a few seconds onto the time savings if you'd like. So with a maximum speed of 40 MPH, JFK-NQ takes ~5:40, but with a max speed of 50 MPH it goes down to ~4:40. Malden Center and Wellington are 1.7 miles apart, so running the numbers again gets you 2:50 at 40 MPH, or 2:20 at 50 MPH. For stops spaced .5 miles apart like on the SW corridor, it's 1:01 at 40 MPH vs 0:56 at 50 MPH.

Assuming an average 10 second penalty between stops, excluding the downtown stops which are closer than 1500ft between them and with the 30 seconds for Malden Center-Wellington, that gives a very rough estimate for the total end-to-end time penalty for the Orange Line of about 2 minutes. Not really a big deal, and less than the ~2:30 just on the Braintree branch of the Red Line.
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My ca ~2001 copy of the OL track profile says that the entire Northern OL, from Community College to Oak Grove, was actually rated for 55, outside the stations themselves, and the same is true on the southern end from Green St to Forest Hills. That's actually higher than the Red, but likely due to the original plan of running express service to Reading. While I agree it may not result in meaningful service improvements to actually operate at those speeds, especially compared to slow zone free speeds, I don't think we should accept degraded service "because it's good enough." If the T is meant to eliminate its technical / sogr debt, running at design speed everywhere should be part of the deal, but at least here it probably shouldn't be a priority over other sogr needs.
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TheRatmeister said:
Not impossible, (According to one railroad.net poster the max speed used to be 50, no source provided) but it's probably not a priority either. The only place you'd really see significant time savings is between Malden Center and Wellington as that's the only place with stops over 1 mile apart. For reference, NQ and JFK are 3.6 miles apart. Just to model the time savings we'll use R160s from NYC since I can immediately find numbers for them. They have an average acceleration of 2.5 MPH/s, which means that they take .14 miles to accelerate to 50 MPH, compared to around .09 miles to accelerate to 40 MPH. I'll assume a similar distance for deceleration because I'm lazy, it's actually a bit shorter. Add a few seconds onto the time savings if you'd like. So with a maximum speed of 40 MPH, JFK-NQ takes ~5:40, but with a max speed of 50 MPH it goes down to ~4:40. Malden Center and Wellington are 1.7 miles apart, so running the numbers again gets you 2:50 at 40 MPH, or 2:20 at 50 MPH. For stops spaced .5 miles apart like on the SW corridor, it's 1:01 at 40 MPH vs 0:56 at 50 MPH.

Assuming an average 10 second penalty between stops, excluding the downtown stops which are closer than 1500ft between them and with the 30 seconds for Malden Center-Wellington, that gives a very rough estimate for the total end-to-end time penalty for the Orange Line of about 2 minutes. Not really a big deal, and less than the ~2:30 just on the Braintree branch of the Red Line.
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Stlin said:
My ca ~2001 copy of the OL track profile says that the entire Northern OL, from Community College to Oak Grove, was actually rated for 55, outside the stations themselves, and the same is true on the southern end from Green St to Forest Hills. That's actually higher than the Red, but likely due to the original plan of running express service to Reading. While I agree it may not result in meaningful service improvements to actually operate at those speeds, especially compared to slow zone free speeds, I don't think we should accept degraded service "because it's good enough." If the T is meant to eliminate its technical / sogr debt, running at design speed everywhere should be part of the deal, but at least here it probably shouldn't be a priority over other sogr needs.
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2 minutes is still pretty signficant in amount the off-peak headways can decrease.

8 trainsets on Sunday means you shorten Sunday headways by 15 seconds.

Fall 2024 schedules use runtimes as of mid-2024, which was 42 minutes for a one way trip. Early data from TransitMatters suggests OL is currently able to run a one way trip in 36 minutes. For sake of simplicity, let's say a roundtrip of the OL includes 9 minute buffers on either terminal.

# TrainsetsFall 2024 schedules (mid-2024 runtimes = 42 mins one way)

Headway:		36 minute runtime (estimate of one way trip for full speed OL today)

Headway:		35 minute one way trip runtime (raise speed from 40 -> 55 MPH)

Headway:
8 (Sunday)12.8 min11.3 min11 min
911.3 min10 min9.8 min
10 (Saturday)10.2 min9 min8.8 min
119.2 min8.2 min8 min
12 (Weekday evening)8.5 min7.5 min7.3 min
13 (Weekday interpeak)7.8 min6.9 min6.8 min
147.2 min6.4 min6.3 min
156.8 min6 min5.9 min
166.4 min5.6 min5.5 min
17 (AM/PM weekday peak)6 min5.3 min5.2 min

IMO I still think making the Orange faster at 55 MPH is a worthwile endeavor. Saturday and Sunday headways each shave 15 seconds off the wait time from the scheduled headway.

10.2 minute headways on Saturday is unacceptably long and requires printed timetables with scheduled departures. 9 minutes is still meh, but 8.8 minute headways allows for 7 trains per hour service, which is SUAG, and means timetables are only needed for Sunday service. Weekday interpeak and evening service also improve decently. Today's it's every 7.5 - 9 minutes, but frequency increases to every 7 - 7.5 minutes. Raise operating speeds from 40 to 55 and headways further decrease to every 6.8 - 7.3 minutes.
 
Delvin4519 said:
The Orange Line is now back. Hopefully we can see some good results in the very few days we have before the federal election that's looking more increasingly grim.

Typically the first few days always have signal problems for some unknown reason. No early morning data from TransitMatters at the moment.

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Quick, before polls close and election results come in, just how fast is the Orange Line?

MBTA Successfully Completes Critical Track Work on Orange Line to Remove Nine Speed Restrictions, Orange Line Is Restriction-free for First Time in Nearly 15 Years | News | MBTA

Official website of the MBTA -- schedules, maps, and fare information for Greater Boston's public transportation system, including subway, commuter rail, bus routes, and boat lines.
www.mbta.com www.mbta.com

Orange is almost as fast as it was past the 2022 monthlong shutdown, at about 98% of the historical maximum. Slow zones post 2022 monthlong shutdown has plagued the OL for over 2 years until now, with at least 1 slowzone somewhere since 2010, but at long last, all lifted.
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End to end trip times are about 36 - 37 minutes when the OL is functional. There's seems to be lots of signal problems and backups getting into the terminal at Oak Grove, so it's quite volatile. Northbound is slightly slower than southbound. However, this is mostly all the data that is available before the close of the election.

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Sorry if this is against the rules or the wrong thread, but it is worth having a discussion on what self-funding the MBTA would look like, and if we could do pull it off politically.
 
Delvin4519 said:
Quick, before polls close and election results come in, just how fast is the Orange Line?

MBTA Successfully Completes Critical Track Work on Orange Line to Remove Nine Speed Restrictions, Orange Line Is Restriction-free for First Time in Nearly 15 Years | News | MBTA

Official website of the MBTA -- schedules, maps, and fare information for Greater Boston's public transportation system, including subway, commuter rail, bus routes, and boat lines.
www.mbta.com www.mbta.com

Orange is almost as fast as it was past the 2022 monthlong shutdown, at about 98% of the historical maximum. Slow zones post 2022 monthlong shutdown has plagued the OL for over 2 years until now, with at least 1 slowzone somewhere since 2010, but at long last, all lifted.
View attachment 57560View attachment 57561

End to end trip times are about 36 - 37 minutes when the OL is functional. There's seems to be lots of signal problems and backups getting into the terminal at Oak Grove, so it's quite volatile. Northbound is slightly slower than southbound. However, this is mostly all the data that is available before the close of the election.

View attachment 57562View attachment 57563
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Nailed it. Didn't celebrate the OL being slow zone free for the past 4 days? Too late to celebrate it now.

Longfellow said:
Sorry if this is against the rules or the wrong thread, but it is worth having a discussion on what self-funding the MBTA would look like, and if we could do pull it off politically.
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A neccessity. Discussions are going to have to get going. 700 million hole that must be solved with ZERO federal funds. No federal funds that can be used until like 2030 at least.

Boston's gridlock is gonna get worse once federal monies for transit dries up. Need the bus to get to the subway? The end of all bus service except for Warren St. in Roxbury.
 
Delvin4519 said:
Nailed it. Didn't celebrate the OL being slow zone free for the past 4 days? Too late to celebrate it now.


A neccessity. Discussions are going to have to get going. 700 million hole that must be solved with ZERO federal funds. No federal funds that can be used until like 2030 at least.

Boston's gridlock is gonna get worse once federal monies for transit dries up. Need the bus to get to the subway? The end of all bus service except for Warren St. in Roxbury.
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The answer is congestion pricing and it can't be a 35-year slog like in New York.
 
Jeremi said:
The answer is congestion pricing and it can't be a 35-year slog like in New York.
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Wouldn't we need federal approval to do it like in NYC? We'd only have 5 or 6 weeks to set up a system now before the Trump presidential transition gets through. Too late. We'd have to start this at least some years ago.

Basically, what are our options now with only 5 - 6 weeks of time we can do? Is there any solution without cutting any MBTA service at all?
 
Delvin4519 said:
Wouldn't we need federal approval to do it like in NYC? We'd only have 5 or 6 weeks to set up a system now before the Trump presidential transition gets through. Too late. We'd have to start this at least some years ago.
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So then put the tolls on Storrow Drive, the Sumner/Callaghan tunnels, the Longfellow/Harvard/Charles River Dam/N. Washington St bridges, any streets Crossing Mass Ave until Melnea Cass, and finally A St, The S. Boston Bypass, and any streets that connect to Summer St in Seaport. Give all residents EZ-Passes and obviously exempt any vehicles owned by the federal government. Leave the Interstates untouched and untolled, they'll be free but slow as molasses. People who want to get anywhere have to pay the toll. There, you have now essentially implemented a congestion charge without touching any federally controlled roads.

If you really want to toe the line you could just toll all the Interstate exists in Downtown as well but that could get a little iffy.
 
Delvin4519 said:
Wouldn't we need federal approval to do it like in NYC? We'd only have 5 or 6 weeks to set up a system now before the Trump presidential transition gets through. Too late. We'd have to start this at least some years ago.

Basically, what are our options now with only 5 - 6 weeks of time we can do? Is there any solution without cutting any MBTA service at all?
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I'm also really curious what we can do to save transit. With the funding shortfall it seems like we would have to live with no weekend CR, all buses cut to 30-min or worse frequency, and all heavy/light rail at a 15-min frequency.

Raising fares is not an option. Congestion tolling seems politically impossible. Is quadrupling the gas tax feasible? What about increasing car registration/inspection by $200?
 
TheRatmeister said:
So then put the tolls on Storrow Drive, the Sumner/Callaghan tunnels, the Longfellow/Harvard/Charles River Dam/N. Washington St bridges, any streets Crossing Mass Ave until Melnea Cass, and finally A St, The S. Boston Bypass, and any streets that connect to Summer St in Seaport. Give all residents EZ-Passes and obviously exempt any vehicles owned by the federal government. Leave the Interstates untouched and untolled, they'll be free but slow as molasses. People who want to get anywhere have to pay the toll. There, you have now essentially implemented a congestion charge without touching any federally controlled roads.

If you really want to toe the line you could just toll all the Interstate exists in Downtown as well but that could get a little iffy.
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I am pretty sure you could strategically toll "around the exits" in a way that does not force Fed scrutiny.
 
sneijder said:
I'm also really curious what we can do to save transit. With the funding shortfall it seems like we would have to live with no weekend CR, all buses cut to 30-min or worse frequency, and all heavy/light rail at a 15-min frequency.

Raising fares is not an option. Congestion tolling seems politically impossible. Is quadrupling the gas tax feasible? What about increasing car registration/inspection by $200?
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Eng is going to have to go the the Legislature and straight up say "not only are we 700 million in the hole, but we also have no more federal funds for the remainder of the decade. We need to make up all federal funds locally or we will cease to exist as an agency".

Also, how much federal funding has the T gotten from the feds? What is the amount that will dry up?

Also, if you're a billion dollars in the hole, I don't think any local bus service will exist. The Silver Line would be through routed via the 28 to Mattapan, and every single other bus route save for the SL1/SL3 being merged will cease to exist. CR would be rush hour only except for maybe weekday interpeak Fairmount/Salem service. Lines like Greenbush or Stoughton may stop completely.

Blue would be every 27 minute service with only 2 trains cycling back and forth. Orange I'd say 3 trains back and forth for 30 minute frequency. Red on a 30 minute headway. Mattapan gets only a single trolley pinging back and forth for 27 minute frequency at best. For Green the D and E would be 30 minute frequency and the B and C drop to hourly outside of rush hour.

Being a billion plus in the hole would be completely catastrophic. But if Eng can't stop any amount of service cut, he would be politically burned beyond recovery. After fixing the subway system and implementing BNRD Part 1, but then to be told to even cut a single bus route, would hurt public trust in the T.
 
Potentially obnoxiously optimistic, but it's possible that the threat of federal funding disappearing is exactly what states like MA need in order to implement serious, long-term sustainable, state-level transit funding measures like congestion tolling, such that when federal funds eventually do come back, they can be used for expansion and improvement rather than life support. As advocates, maybe this is our moment.
 
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