General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

Teban54 said:
A somewhat extreme example: Boston Landing vs the 57 bus for Allston. The success of Boston Landing shows that people do prefer an 18-min ride to South Station despite its irregular and (somewhat) infrequent schedule.

However, I'm not sure if this applies to the topic at hand because:
  • The time difference on the Red Line is probably not as drastic as commuter rail vs. bus.
  • Commuter rail has fixed schedules, whereas schedules for the Red Line are not nearly as easily accessible beforehand. In addition, people expect rapid transit to be turn-up-and-go, unlike commuter rail.
On the other hand, I'm not sure if you can add more trains on the Red Line until more CRRCs arrive, given the deterioration of the old fleet. That may make the whole comparison moot.
Click to expand...

This is actually a really good example. Let’s nail the point home:

If you are standing at KFC on North Beacon in Allston, it would take you:

  • The same amount of time to get to South Station via the Worcester Line from Boston Landing as Red Line Alewife to JFK/UMass with no slow zones.
  • The same amount of time to get to South Station via the B-Branch of the Green Line and walking from Park St as Red Line Alewife to JFK/UMass at the recent slow zone peak.

So then the question is, would residents prefer that trip via B-Branch every four minutes or via Commuter Rail every 15 minutes? I think the answer is clear.

Obviously, it should be fast and frequent though. But anyone should see that the slow zones have been so much more extreme, that this insane B-Branch to Commuter Rail example actually works.
 
bigeman312 said:
This is actually a really good example. Let’s nail the point home:

If you are standing at KFC on North Beacon in Allston, it would take you:

  • The same amount of time to get to South Station via the Worcester Line from Boston Landing as Red Line Alewife to JFK/UMass with no slow zones.
  • The same amount of time to get to South Station via the B-Branch of the Green Line and walking from Park St as Red Line Alewife to JFK/UMass at the recent slow zone peak.

So then the question is, would residents prefer that trip via B-Branch every four minutes or via Commuter Rail every 15 minutes? I think the answer is clear.

Obviously, it should be fast and frequent though. But anyone should see that the slow zones have been so much more extreme, that this insane B-Branch to Commuter Rail example actually works.
Click to expand...
In fairness, I don't think most people are taking the Red Line all the way from Alewife to JFK/UMass, thus reducing the time difference. But your point still stands.
 
Has there always been a 25mph speed restriction on the curve between Fields Corner and Savin Hill? On the round trip I took today, the trains were running at 25 mph from Fields Corner to around Freeport St. However, TransitMatters dashboard show similar travel times as the past (except during the Covid months in 2020).
 
Teban54 said:
Has there always been a 25mph speed restriction on the curve between Fields Corner and Savin Hill? On the round trip I took today, the trains were running at 25 mph from Fields Corner to around Freeport St. However, TransitMatters dashboard show similar travel times as the past (except during the Covid months in 2020).
Click to expand...
Clayton St. curve is the sharpest on the whole Red Line outside of Harvard curve, so there is a permanent restriction there. I don't know if it's always been 25, but it certainly wouldn't ever be more than 30 given the degree of curvature and the fact that the curve is at its sharpest while passing over a bridge.
 
bigeman312 said:
This is actually a really good example. Let’s nail the point home:

If you are standing at KFC on North Beacon in Allston, it would take you:

  • The same amount of time to get to South Station via the Worcester Line from Boston Landing as Red Line Alewife to JFK/UMass with no slow zones.
  • The same amount of time to get to South Station via the B-Branch of the Green Line and walking from Park St as Red Line Alewife to JFK/UMass at the recent slow zone peak.

So then the question is, would residents prefer that trip via B-Branch every four minutes or via Commuter Rail every 15 minutes? I think the answer is clear.

Obviously, it should be fast and frequent though. But anyone should see that the slow zones have been so much more extreme, that this insane B-Branch to Commuter Rail example actually works.
Click to expand...


I don't disagree, but, I think as a comparison to the current red line it's a bit apples to oranges, especially on the branches. At the moment commuting to Park St/South Station the current slow zones add a few minutes onto my trip, which is much less disruptive than getting to Ashmont and seeing I have to wait 20 minutes for the next train (on top of already walking to the station/taking the HSL which adds even more time and uncertain). Thus, even if it were only a reduction to 10 minute headways it would be a big difference mentally and in travel time vs shaving the rest of the slow zones (for my commute).

Now, if the MBTA decided to go to clock facing CR like schedules on the branches while tracks are still being fixed/operators being hired, and I knew that there would be a train at 8 am, 8:20 am, 8:40 am, etc departing on the dot from Ashmont, I would take that as I could at least plan accordingly around it. It would be better than the randomness we have now. Also, I would point out that I think they should (and can) both work on increasing headways and reducing slow zones - I don't think it's a zero-sum game where we need to pick one over the other.

But, at this point, I would be all for clock-facing Red Line service with the current abysmal headways. Might as well run it like commuter/regional rail if they are going to only run commuter/regional rail levels of service. Add in synchronizing the HSL at Ashmont and it really would be much more bearable.
 
Last edited:
bakgwailo said:
I don't disagree, but, I think as a comparison to the current red line it's a bit apples to oranges, especially on the branches. At the moment commuting to Park St/South Station the current slow zones add a few minutes onto my trip, which is much less disruptive than getting to Ashmont and seeing I have to wait 20 minutes for the next train (on top of already walking to the station/taking the HSL which adds even more time and uncertain). Thus, even if it were only a reduction to 10 minute headways it would be a big difference mentally and in travel time vs shaving the rest of the slow zones (for my commute).

Now, if the MBTA decided to go to clock facing CR like schedules on the branches while tracks are still being fixed/operators being hired, and I knew that there would be a train at 8 am, 8:20 am, 8:40 am, etc departing on the dot from Ashmont, I would take that as I could at least plan accordingly around it. It would be better than the randomness we have now. Also, I would point out that I think they should (and can) both work on increasing headways and reducing slow zones - I don't think it's a zero-sum game where we need to pick one over the other.

But, at this point, I would be all for clock-facing Red Line service with the current abysmal headways. Might as well run it like commuter/regional rail if they are going to only run commuter/regional rail levels of service. Add in synchronizing the HSL at Ashmont and it really would be much more bearable.
Click to expand...

Great comment and great perspective. I agree with all of this.

The fact of the matter is that the slow zones and the poor headways are hugely problematic. Good headways require the slow zones to be fixed, as I know you understand.

You are absolutely correct though that the shorter the trip, and especially if it’s on a branch of the Red Line, the more of a factor the headways become in discouraging usage relative to the slow zones. To use an extreme, a potential rider that would regularly use a fully functional Red Line to commute Braintree -> Quincy Center trip is far more discouraged by 30-minute headways (🤮) than slow zones.

At the end of the day, we can hope the MBTA’s massive success with the Ashmont Branch can be duplicated, leading to faster and more frequent service that is used by more people.
 
According to today's ongoing Safety subcommittee meeting, a healthy chunk of the slow zones will last through 2024, but all will be eliminated by the end of 2024 through a series of shorter shutdowns similar to the Ashmont shutdown to accomplish the work, and looking to out of state contractors and providing incentives to get the work done ahead of schedule. They're also proposing single track running in certain segments to allow service to continue while working on the adjacent track.

New administration, new leadership, new approaches to doing business.

Edited to include additional slides at higher quality; link to presentation here:
https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/files/2023-11/2023-11-09-mbta-track-improvement-program.pdf

1699539993979.png

1699540030627.png

1699540077383.png

1699540119234.png

1699540148740.png

(Apologies for the low quality image - the live stream doesn't have the best quality for screenshots - will update once the full presentation is posted)
 

Attachments

  • F-fv9I-bAAAukrI.jpeg
    F-fv9I-bAAAukrI.jpeg
    102.2 KB · Views: 50
Last edited:
beck4537 said:
www.bostonglobe.com

MBTA plans to eliminate slow zones by incrementally shutting down stretches of subway for repairs - The Boston Globe

The effort is a huge undertaking for an organization that has struggled to deliver on even its most basic duty in recent years: to provide safe, reliable transit service.
www.bostonglobe.com www.bostonglobe.com
Click to expand...
Paywall bypass:
https://www.reddit.com/r/mbta/comments/17rdeuc/_/k8i1n2a

My own highlights:
And the new plan marks a promise kept by Eng, who vowed on his first day as head of the agency in April to provide the public with a schedule for when the T would make repairs to eliminate each speed restriction.

It also signals a fundamental shift in the T’s approach to its infrastructure problems. The T has long opted to slow down trains over faulty areas instead of making much needed repairs on time. Even as the Federal Transit Administration admonished the T for failing to properly maintain its tracks last year, the agency repeatedly declined to provide information about its slow zones, keeping the extent of the problem from the public. Only in February did the agency begin to publish data about its slow zones.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Stlin said:
According to today's ongoing Safety subcommittee meeting, a healthy chunk of the slow zones will last through 2024, but all will be eliminated by the end of 2024 through a series of shorter shutdowns similar to the Ashmont shutdown to accomplish the work, and looking to out of state contractors and providing incentives to get the work done ahead of schedule. They're also proposing single track running in certain segments to allow service to continue while working on the adjacent track.

New administration, new leadership, new approaches to doing business.

Edited to include additional slides at higher quality; link to presentation here:
https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/files/2023-11/2023-11-09-mbta-track-improvement-program.pdf

Teban54 said:
Paywall bypass:
https://www.reddit.com/r/mbta/comments/17rdeuc/_/k8i1n2a
Click to expand...

(Apologies for the low quality image - the live stream doesn't have the best quality for screenshots - will update once the full presentation is posted)
Click to expand...

This is good progress and transparency but why is Red being pushed back until mid to late 2024? It's the highest ridership line (by far) and also riddled with the largest number of slow zones. Seems that should be top priority for an extended shutdown.
 
There are a total of 4.3 + 9.2 + 1.8 +8.7 + 4.2 + 1.7 + 0.1 =

30.0 minutes of slow zones on the Green Line.

How much does the MBTA slow zone calculation differ from TransitMatters?

OL = 1.9 + 1.7 + 4.3 + 2.3 + 1.3 + 4.8 = 16.3 minutes of slow zone. TransitMatters says 14.3 minutes of slow zone. 2.0 minutes of OL slowzone are currently missed by TransitMatters.

RL =1.7 + 2.7 + 6.5 + 4.0 + .8 + 3.7 + 2.6 + 2.7 + 9.1 = 33.8 minutes of slow zone. TransitMatters says 40.7 minutes of slow zone. TransitMatters shows an extra 6.9 minutes of slowzone missed by the MBTA.

BL = 5.3 + 0.7 = 6.0 minutes of slow zone on BL. TransitMatters says 3.5 minutes of slow zone. 2.5 min of BL slowzone are currently missed by TransitMatters.

Adding up all the MBTA values 30.0 + 16.3 + 33.8 +3.5 = 1h 23m and 36s of slowzone systemwide. Using TransitMatters values gives 1h 26m 00s of slowzone systemwide currently. Using the max values for the Red Line gives 1h 33m 54sec of slowzone.

Since April, the MBTA has removed 8min of OL slowzone, 42m of RL slowzone, and 17m of BL slowzone, based on TransitMatters data. This means that the the peak, adding 14min of slowzone for the GLX and, there were over 2h and 49 min of slowzone systemwide, without addng any of the B branch slowzones pre-repair.
 
sneijder said:
This is good progress and transparency but why is Red being pushed back until mid to late 2024? It's the highest ridership line (by far) and also riddled with the largest number of slow zones. Seems that should be top priority for an extended shutdown.
Click to expand...

Green Line has approx 30.0 minutes of slowzone, using the information provided in the slides, compared to 40.8 minutes of slowzone for the Red Line.
 
beck4537 said:
www.bostonglobe.com

MBTA plans to eliminate slow zones by incrementally shutting down stretches of subway for repairs - The Boston Globe

The effort is a huge undertaking for an organization that has struggled to deliver on even its most basic duty in recent years: to provide safe, reliable transit service.
www.bostonglobe.com www.bostonglobe.com
Click to expand...
TL'DR: It will take until the very start of January 2025 to fix all of the slow zones; and all of the headway problems that stem from slowzones. BNRD will also begin at the start of the month January 2025.

Also, what about the issue of the fiscal cliff that arrives June/July 2024?
 
RandomWalk said:
My question: once they get through this, can they maintain the system in a state of good repair with the regular overnight windows? If not, we’re going to be back here in a few years.
Click to expand...
Hopefully they can figure out single track running so they might be able to have larger maintenance windows going forward and still maintain some level of service at night.

Well, that and actually figure out how to inspect the tracks to even be able to know if they need maintenance or not.
 
bakgwailo said:
Hopefully they can figure out single track running so they might be able to have larger maintenance windows going forward and still maintain some level of service at night.

Well, that and actually figure out how to inspect the tracks to even be able to know if they need maintenance or not.
Click to expand...
With the current headways it shouldn't be hard...
 
RandomWalk said:
My question: once they get through this, can they maintain the system in a state of good repair with the regular overnight windows? If not, we’re going to be back here in a few years.
Click to expand...
Given that basically every other system in the world does it (With a few weekend closures and whatnot as well), if we fund the maintenance and don't defer it, yes it's absolutely possible. If we've learned nothing and start putting things off again, we'll find ourselves back in the same spot. Simple as that.
 
bakgwailo said:
Well, that and actually figure out how to inspect the tracks to even be able to know if they need maintenance or not.
Click to expand...
My take away from all that we've learned is that it can be done generally during regular closed hours. The problem in the past has been twofold: 1) failure to diagnose; 2) using slow zones as a long term fix. For whatever reason, the MBTA has taken the approach of modifying operations to exist within the world of deferred maintenance, rather than fixing problems as they are discovered. Phillip Eng seems to prefer the latter approach, and seems also to have the ability to find the problems in the first place.
 
RandomWalk said:
My question: once they get through this, can they maintain the system in a state of good repair with the regular overnight windows? If not, we’re going to be back here in a few years.
Click to expand...

I have to personally speculate that when (or I guess if) all the slow zone gets repaired, it's probably a lot easier to keep up if one immediately address the issue when initially detected (with wiling and active effort to detect them).

The slow zones we see now (and hopefully we actually found the vast majority, but tbh I can't say I know), are the accumulation of years of not just deferred maintenance but willful ignorance. Creating a situation where slow zones have reached critical levels that cannot be ignored (well in this current political climate, who knows how much it can be ignored if we were under other leadership). But not just massive backlog of known issues, but a massive number of issues that are there but nobody has detected and documented - which compounds the issue as you can't repair if you don't even know there's an issue to repair.
 
I have to point this one out. If I'm reading this correctly, the North Station to Lechmere is likely that slow zone on the viaduct. One spot I know a lot of us on this board have noticed a lot. If that's the one, it would be kinda fitting if it becomes one of the last slow zones they will fix. We still have no idea why the viaduct continue to defy being fixed.


In terms of pure minutes, it is too bad we won't see repairs come to the JFK/UMass to Braintree until next September.

1699589024314.png
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top