General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

[Delvin4519]

Press release from the MBTA is out: https://www.mbta.com/news/2024-01-2...ted-critical-track-work-green-line-removes-16

No mention of what the future plans are for lifting the 2 SB/WB North Station - Gov't Ctr slow zones.

The MBTA only stated a planned goal of tunnel inspections between North Station and Haymarket was accomplished, and a shortening of a slowzone between Haymarket and Government Center as "bonus" work.

The MBTA also provided a photo of ballast being replaced during the diversion, which seems to be the primary culprit when slow zones/tracks need 2 weeks of use for ballast to settle. No location was given for the photo showing where ballast was replaced.

 

[Teban54]

The MBTA only stated a planned goal of tunnel inspections between North Station and Haymarket was accomplished

It they only inspected the tunnel now, it makes sense that they couldn't have developed plans to fix them beforehand.

 

[ritchiew]

The slides mentioned that the track repairs would lift 12 slow zones between January 16 and January 29. 12 slow zones were lifted this morning. This seems to be something that was known long beforehand if the slides state that 12 slow zones would be addressed as part of this closure. They probably knew 2 slow zones would be left behind, yet were not placed on the calendar year 2024 schedule accordingly.

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Oohhhhh.... Sorry, I was maybe misunderstanding you. I thought these slow zones were planned to be fixed during the shutdown, but they didn't get to them in time. You're saying the MBTA did what they planned to get done, but it never included these last two or three slow zones. Is that right? That is odd.... Then I don't really have an explanation for that. I would be even more curious what is causing those specific slow zones. And why does it look like 12 slow zones have gone away, but the press release says 16?

 

[cubbe8]

Oohhhhh.... Sorry, I was maybe misunderstanding you. I thought these slow zones were planned to be fixed during the shutdown, but they didn't get to them in time. You're saying the MBTA did what they planned to get done, but it never included these last two or three slow zones. Is that right? That is odd.... Then I don't really have an explanation for that. I would be even more curious what is causing those specific slow zones. And why does it look like 12 slow zones have gone away, but the press release says 16?

The 16 I’m assuming is counting the first part of the shutdown?

 

[stefal]

Purely anecdotal experience I'm sure, and not letting my first ride through sour my taste of the successes of these shutdowns just yet, but first commute from door to door both ways were considerably longer this morning than pre-shutdown (evening commute almost 80% longer...which is why I feel the need to vent), between waiting with long headways and then the bunching/stopping and going between stations downtown, long dwell times, etc.... couldn't feel the benefits of any work with that.

Some more work to do that's not just track conditions..

 

[Delvin4519]

Purely anecdotal experience I'm sure, and not letting my first ride through sour my taste of the successes of these shutdowns just yet, but first commute from door to door both ways were considerably longer this morning than pre-shutdown (evening commute almost 80% longer...which is why I feel the need to vent), between waiting with long headways and then the bunching/stopping and going between stations downtown, long dwell times, etc.... couldn't feel the benefits of any work with that.

Some more work to do that's not just track conditions..

TransitMatters data dashboard is also showing a lack of improvements, zero changes in travel times so far. Travel times remain the same as pre-shutdown (January shutdowns). Average speeds on the Green Line are about the same as MLK day weekend and mid-December before the holidays.

 

[stefal]

TransitMatters data dashboard is also showing a lack of improvements, zero changes in travel times so far. Travel times remain the same as pre-shutdown (January shutdowns). Average speeds on the Green Line are about the same as MLK day weekend and mid-December before the holidays.

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Like I said, I'm not using today's experience to downplay all the work done or if there will be noticeable improvements that we will see with some more data, but it was a bit of a downer today..

 

[JeffDowntown]

Like I said, I'm not using today's experience to downplay all the work done or if there will be noticeable improvements that we will see with some more data, but it was a bit of a downer today..

I would point out that the MBTA was very prompt to promoted that "we did our shutdown, and our work, and are back open". They never said they improved anything.

 

[kdmc]

New Spilling the T podcast today:

Some details on the Red/Orange power issue, but as far as I know, nothing new or revelatory. Regardless, I like listening to Eng speak.

They never said they improved anything.

Eng does claim here that the GL shutdowns have led to an improved customer experience.

 

[nbcoram]

I would point out that the MBTA was very prompt to promoted that "we did our shutdown, and our work, and are back open". They never said they improved anything.

As a (still new) operator, I will point out that things have improved between Govy and Hynes. North Station to Govy not as much, but that stretch in particular is prone to a lot of variability between operators. Additionally, in the runs where I've been in the trailer car, I've had a few operators who are still going slower than the posted speed because they aren't used to it yet. This happened initially with the Lechmere Viaduct as well.

On Green we are also a lot more prone to train traffic -- both due to peak hour things and other events during the day. My last trip yesterday, I got looped at Kenmore coming from Riverside (at basically the absolute last second) because the wire car messed up the subway and then TPD had to be called to a train somewhere around Arlington or Boylston messing things up further. They had two trains standing by on the platform at Hynes, two at Copley, and things were being held everywhere and so they got me right out of the way.

I do agree with various commenters elsewhere online that we don't just need renewed tracks, but also other upgrades to truly improve the system. As long as the Type 7's have lasted, and as much new life as the rebuild gave them, they still cause problems. The 7's spring propulsion faults like there's no tomorrow and they can slow a trip right down, especially on runs to Riverside or Medford.

 

[KCasiglio]

As a (still new) operator, I will point out that things have improved between Govy and Hynes. North Station to Govy not as much, but that stretch in particular is prone to a lot of variability between operators. Additionally, in the runs where I've been in the trailer car, I've had a few operators who are still going slower than the posted speed because they aren't used to it yet. This happened initially with the Lechmere Viaduct as well.

On Green we are also a lot more prone to train traffic -- both due to peak hour things and other events during the day. My last trip yesterday, I got looped at Kenmore coming from Riverside (at basically the absolute last second) because the wire car messed up the subway and then TPD had to be called to a train somewhere around Arlington or Boylston messing things up further. They had two trains standing by on the platform at Hynes, two at Copley, and things were being held everywhere and so they got me right out of the way.

I do agree with various commenters elsewhere online that we don't just need renewed tracks, but also other upgrades to truly improve the system. As long as the Type 7's have lasted, and as much new life as the rebuild gave them, they still cause problems. The 7's spring propulsion faults like there's no tomorrow and they can slow a trip right down, especially on runs to Riverside or Medford.

Nothing to add but I just want to say thank you for your insights, it’s fantastic having an operator’s perspective on this forum.

 

[nbcoram]

Nothing to add but I just want to say thank you for your insights, it’s fantastic having an operator’s perspective on this forum.

Of course! The reverse is also true, I feel like my transit nerd knowledge helps make me a better operator. I'm new, so there's a lot of old practices I'm not too familiar with - I began training at the end of October and have been on my own for about three weeks so I just began driving on the subway with passengers two days ago after only taking people to Kenmore/Babcock/North Station (I shadowed other operators during the prior diversion, and we are not allowed to take passengers on training runs). However, I've ridden the system quite a lot which kinda makes up for that to a degree (and of course did training runs through the subway when it was open).

Green Line operations can be absolutely ridiculous. Compared to the heavy rail which I have some knowledge of the operations of and have ridden quite frequently, here on the light rail side sometimes things just feel cobbled together. There's also a lot of lack of consideration for the passenger experience amongst many operators, unfortunately. I had a number of shifts out of Cleveland Circle during the cold snap we had recently. T policy is to never leave a train unattended, so when we cross trains back, we are supposed to jump off and close the door -- leaving people waiting in the cold or rain or whatever. Given we were looping Kenmore (extra people on hand) and it was very cold I chose to just wait on the train for the operator who was scheduled to do the run so people could get on the train. In a Type 8/9 I'd also manually key open just the middle door so the ends of the train stay warm. I don't expect every operator to go out of their way but I wish some of my coworkers would be better about these things.

Seeing Green Line operations firsthand also reinforces my decision to take the Orange Line through downtown most of the time if I'm not reporting for work.

 

[Riverside]

My last trip yesterday, I got looped at Kenmore coming from Riverside

The 5-year-old in the back of my head went “Oooh that sounds cool” when reading this. The adult me, of course, imagines how much of a hassle this must have made for everyone, smh.

(And I second the appreciation for the operator’s perspective — really great stuff and super interesting!)

 

[nbcoram]

The 5-year-old in the back of my head went “Oooh that sounds cool” when reading this. The adult me, of course, imagines how much of a hassle this must have made for everyone, smh.

(And I second the appreciation for the operator’s perspective — really great stuff and super interesting!)

I was honestly annoyed by the whole situation. Looping Kenmore is cool, but I'm sick of looping Kenmore after the diversion. Additionally, my PA system was glitchy throughout the run and I was unable to make manual announcements (and the automated announcements weren't working) for half of the trip, then it worked again after a restart at Brookline Village, and then it stopped working again at Fenway.... so hearing on the radio right as I'm entering the Kenmore platform "3700, offload your train, you're gonna be looping Kenmore" was lovely. I yelled out what I could as I was entering the platform, which was a lovely surprise for the passengers. Did my best to explain what was going on. My trailer did the same in her car. Nobody got mad at me at least.

We were down some people so I actually volunteered to do an extra trip after my off time and so my 2 hours of extra pay turned into 1 hour of extra pay. Had I gone to Union as scheduled, given the interruptions in downtown, it's likely I would have gotten even more extra pay. Oh well.

And personally, I'd rather them loop Beacon service at Kenmore during this sort of situation first before looping Riverside service. Most operators would probably disagree with me given the attitudes around here, but Riverside service is closer to proper rapid transit and Beacon service is closer to a feeder service that loops Govy anyway, which forces a transfer for anyone going to North Station or beyond. (For a while yesterday, when the wire car was out, they had all Beacon and BC service looping Park.)

 

[Riverside]

^ Oh to be clear, I mentioned my inner child reaction mostly out of silliness. Operationally that’s an absolute mess and a good example of a lot of larger problems.

(And the PA problem is just tragic.)

 

[nbcoram]

^ Oh to be clear, I mentioned my inner child reaction mostly out of silliness. Operationally that’s an absolute mess and a good example of a lot of larger problems.

(And the PA problem is just tragic.)

Your reaction is justified -- I feel like a little kid inside a lot of the time too.

And the Type 7's in particular have loads of PA problems, especially when they are the lead car (when there is an issue with the announcements a 7 in front, it also occurs in the 8 due to the electrical train lining issues). 8's have problems sometimes but not as much as the 7's; on a related note, most of the time a quiet manual announcement coming from an 8 is due to operator error (not being close enough to the mic). The Type 9's are usually fine with both automated announcements and manual announcements.

 

[Teban54]

And personally, I'd rather them loop Beacon service at Kenmore during this sort of situation first before looping Riverside service. Most operators would probably disagree with me given the attitudes around here

Can you explain in a bit more detail why that's the case? Do most operators prefer the C branch because it's shorter, or because they like street running, or...?

 

[nbcoram]

Can you explain in a bit more detail why that's the case? Do most operators prefer the C branch because it's shorter, or because they like street running, or...?

When Riverside runs get looped, you get off your run more than an hour early. The time saved for looping Beacon runs at Kenmore is not nearly as significant.

In reference to "the attitudes around here", other operators think I'm insane for not liking diversions.

 

[fatnoah]

I had to take a trip to the city because mini-FatNoah's doctor (despite all requests from us) keeps sending prescriptions to the CVS on Newbury St. I was expecting Transit Apocalypse but instead had about 100 minute door-to-door from Winchester and back. Commuter rail was on time and Green Line trains appeared every few minutes and were busy, but not crowded. It was weird that it felt like what I remember as "normal".

 

[Delvin4519]

Regarding lifting slow zones on the Green Line central subway tunnel post-monthlong shutdown:

I had a chance to ride the Green Line between North Station and Longwood Medical Area westbound, and eastbound back to Haymarket.

The slow zones between North Station and Gov't Ctr are towards Haymarket. I saw an S6 sign before curving into Haymarket, and then I saw 2 "RESUME SPEED" signs in quick sucession past Haymarket. The second "RESUME SPEED" sign appeared to be shortly before the merge from the Gov't Ctr loop. So it seems the 5 MPH WB speed restriction between Haymarket and Government Center doesn't affect Boylston St. streetcars looping to return to Park St.

The trip from North Station to Longwood Medica Area was extremely slow. The streetcar left North Station at 13:47 (1:47 p.m.), and did not get into Longwood Medical Area until 14:18 (2:18 p.m.), a 31 minute trip that used to take 20 - 22 minutes back in May 2018.

Much of the central subway tunnel still seems to be capped at 15 MPH (25kmh) from Government Center to Symphony. There may have been some S25 (40kmh) speed limit signs somewhere near Gov't Ctr, or Arlington, but I couldn't see them or tell them apart from the S15 signs in the dimly lit dark tunnel. On curves and switches in the tunnel between Government Center and Symphony, they are limited to 6 MPH (9.6 kmh) with the speed limit signs stating as such.

At Northeastern there is a 10 MPH (16 kmh) limit at the switches, then after that it is S25 with no additional speed limit signs before Longwood Medical Area.

Heading eastbound there was too much rush hour crowding so I could not observe any speed limit signs, the trip was much faster and I got to Haymarket from Longwood Medical Area in about 23 minutes (historically around 18 minutes in May 2018).