General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

[ant8904]

Tried to get to Newton on Comm Ave & it was all screwed up because of the damn track work on the B Line!! Boy I'm so sick of that!!!!!!

You can't both be mad at how many and how long it goes to make slow zones to go away and get super mad they are finally doing the work that have demonstratively shown it actually get rids of the slow zones.

 

[ritchiew]

You can't both be mad at how many and how long it goes to make slow zones to go away and get super mad they are finally doing the work that have demonstratively shown it actually get rids of the slow zones.

Yes you can. The slow zones have been a huge pain in the ass. This whole year of shutdowns has also been a huge pain in the ass. I'm glad the shutdowns seem to be working, but still furious the T got so bad that a whole year of shutdowns became necessary. If the T were reasonably funded and competent, this would have been the kind of work that got done nights and weekends with minimal disruptions to passengers.

 

[Riverside]

There is also one in the North Station Portal when going Science Park > North Station. My best guess is that they are to prevent overspeeding when going downhill. Hopefully that means they could be eliminated with the Green Line Train Protection System, though that project is now on hold.

My impression when I saw this was that it was to address the visibility problem of going from the bright sunlit exterior to the much darker interior of the tunnel -- the stop allowing the operator's eyes to adjust and actually be able to see the tracks ahead. But I think @nbcoram has said it is signaling-related?

 

[ant8904]

Yes you can. The slow zones have been a huge pain in the ass. This whole year of shutdowns has also been a huge pain in the ass. I'm glad the shutdowns seem to be working, but still furious the T got so bad that a whole year of shutdowns became necessary. If the T were reasonably funded and competent, this would have been the kind of work that got done nights and weekends with minimal disruptions to passengers.

I don't disagree with you. But frankly and the risk of crossing lines by being too frank, you're not arguing the same thing as Jahvon.

Your line demonstrated the understanding of the contradictions and nuances of the situation. That dealing with all these shutdowns is a painful experience. Particularly you express recognition that the true issue is the MBTA reach the point total shutdowns as the only way fix this. If Jahvon said what you said, I would have taken no issue and may even write my own post in concurrence MBTA needs to get to state it can keep things maintained by overnight work (and weekends rarely - basically following levels you would see in functional systems in Europe and Japan).

Jahvon does not express that. He just make very surface level expressions and closes with his emojis. After seeing enough posts, one have to start connecting the nuances are not just omitted, but doesn't recognize that the current situation cannot both demand the slow zones fixed but have no shutdowns at the same time. And gets super mad with emojis.

 

[as02143]

I don't disagree with you. But frankly and the risk of crossing lines by being too frank, you're not arguing the same thing as Jahvon.

Your line demonstrated the understanding of the contradictions and nuances of the situation. That dealing with all these shutdowns is a painful experience. Particularly you express recognition that the true issue is the MBTA reach the point total shutdowns as the only way fix this. If Jahvon said what you said, I would have taken no issue and may even write my own post in concurrence MBTA needs to get to state it can keep things maintained by overnight work (and weekends rarely - basically following levels you would see in functional systems in Europe and Japan).

Jahvon does not express that. He just make very surface level expressions and closes with his emojis. After seeing enough posts, one have to start connecting the nuances are not just omitted, but doesn't recognize that the current situation cannot both demand the slow zones fixed but have no shutdowns at the same time. And gets super mad with emojis.

Crossing a line for sure. You don't get to dictate how someone uses their time or their expression, especially in a place where there are no express standards of conduct like an online forum.

If it is so offensive to you, the "ignore" button is right there.

 

[ant8904]

If it is so offensive to you, the "ignore" button is right there.

The reason I don't use the ignore button because he is still a person who engage in good faith and thus I will engage back.

Can my last post can be more respectful? Yes, I don't get to dictate how someone use their time or expression. But it doesn't mean I don't see the contradictions and thus should not point it out. As long he's posting in good faith, and I do believe he is, then I don't think the right course is to add him to the ignore list. But tell him his thinking is logically contradictory.

It's understandable to be outraged at all the slow zones. It also understandable to be outraged that it was allow to get this bad in the first place. But his anger expresses in a way that essentially demands no slow zones but also no shutdowns - not in the ritchiew's sense of outrage of things being allowed to get this bad in the first place - but in the "retain possession of the cake but also eat at the same time sense."

 

[Badusername]

My impression when I saw this was that it was to address the visibility problem of going from the bright sunlit exterior to the much darker interior of the tunnel -- the stop allowing the operator's eyes to adjust and actually be able to see the tracks ahead. But I think @nbcoram has said it is signaling-related?

I have thought the same thing, but then shouldn’t a stop sign be at every portal? Unless it’s because the North Station turn back is just past the portal so there’s potential for traffic or operators on foot so it’s more important the operators eyes adjust in this case. One of those questions I’ve thought about attending an Ask the GM session to get an answer from Phil Eng about it… other questions: Why are green line trains limited to 10mph at platforms (My guess is type 8s are to blame)? Also, why do GLX trains stop at the end of the platform while central subway trains stop mid-platform? The time penalty of 10mph at Lechmere and others wouldn’t be so bad if the train stopped mid platform.

 

[as02143]

It's understandable to be outraged at all the slow zones. It also understandable to be outraged that it was allow to get this bad in the first place. But his anger expresses in a way that essentially demands no slow zones but also no shutdowns.

Reality: Tried to get to Newton on Comm Ave & it was all screwed up because of the damn track work on the B Line!! Boy I'm so sick of that!!!!!!

Buddy, what a great strawman you got there. Nothing actually says "no shutdowns". One can be sick of all the work and for it not to equal a position that supposedly "demands" no shutdowns. That's making up a strawman to argue with.

For me, I sure am sick of all the work -- this has been a year of largely not riding the T despite a love for the system. The brand new Green Line extension in my neighborhood has seemingly been closed or running slow zones about as long as it has been opened. (How long did that Lechmere viaduct slow zone last?) Meanwhile, the Red Line that used to get me to Boston, Dot, and the South Shore has effectively been half-speed or worse since 2022. Does stating the fact that these shutdowns have been immensely disruptive to riders and people driving, walking, and biking on the region's streets and highways mean that they shouldn't happen? No.

 

[as02143]

I have thought the same thing, but then shouldn’t a stop sign be at every portal? Unless it’s because the North Station turn back is just past the portal so there’s potential for traffic or operators on foot so it’s more important the operators eyes adjust in this case. One of those questions I’ve thought about attending an Ask the GM session to get an answer from Phil Eng about it… other questions: Why are green line trains limited to 10mph at platforms (My guess is type 8s are to blame)? Also, why do GLX trains stop at the end of the platform while central subway trains stop mid-platform? The time penalty of 10mph at Lechmere and others wouldn’t be so bad if the train stopped mid platform.

The inbound stop at the ramp from Science Park to North Station is similar to the inbound stop at the ramp from Mass Ave to the Harvard lower bus tunnel. I believe there's a sun/shade issue and I believe a door to a back-of-house space or perhaps an emergency exit? near the portal or just after entering the tunnel.

 

[ant8904]

Buddy, what a great strawman you got there. Nothing actually says "no shutdowns". One can be sick of all the work and for it not to equal a position that supposedly "demands" no shutdowns. That's making up a strawman to argue with.

Bro, if you think I created a strawman, then you haven't been reading Jahvon's past posts. The way you/we are frustrated is not the same as the way Jahvon is frustrated despite the similarity. Hence why I decided to express my original post.

 

[Delvin4519]

That dealing with all these shutdowns is a painful experience. Particularly you express recognition that the true issue is the MBTA reach the point total shutdowns as the only way fix this.

It's understandable to be outraged at all the slow zones. It also understandable to be outraged that it was allow to get this bad in the first place.

The Orange Line still being slower than it was pre-Summer 2022 shutdown was and remains a huge failure by the T. August 2022 was when the MBTA promised riders a "faster Orange Line". 2 years later, the Orange Line remains slower than the pre-monthlong shutdown, and the MBTA responded by delaying Orange Line repairs from August 2024 to Halloween, after allowing the Red Line to rot to the core and needing accelerated desperate repairs. The MBTA rotted to the point where it will now take 2.3 years for the MBTA to deliver a "faster Orange Line" that was promised way back then. 2 years since that promise, and the "faster Orange Line" is still yet to be delivered from the MBTA.

With 7:50 - 8:10 minutes of slow zone on the Orange Line today, the Orange Line is slower and running less frequently than at any point than in the 12 months prior to the monthlong shutdown between September 2021 and August 2022, where the OL only had 5:50 - 6:05 minutes of slowzone.

For me, I sure am sick of all the work -- this has been a year of largely not riding the T despite a love for the system. The brand new Green Line extension in my neighborhood has seemingly been closed or running slow zones about as long as it has been opened. (How long did that Lechmere viaduct slow zone last?) Meanwhile, the Red Line that used to get me to Boston, Dot, and the South Shore has effectively been half-speed or worse since 2022.

Super frustrating and agonizing. Over 2 years of this low frequency garbage running at a snails pace . Shutdowns every other weekend make it so damn difficult to plans outside of business hours. First it was the Gov't Ctr garage in 2022-2023, then slow zones. Now it's alternating back and forth between the GL weekend shutdown and OL weekend shutdowns in 2024. Every time I try to damn use the subway, either some kind of shutdown to schedule around/avoid, or there is some friggin 15 minute bunched headway on the GLX, or for the D to Kenmore. OL ran at a snails pace at 10 - 15 frequencies basically at all hours for the better part of 2 years. Now outside of weekday daytime hours and the downtown core relieved of slow zones, the OL still runs the same crappy off peak frequencies it ran when it had slow zones. Plus all of the bus service cuts in 2023 and none of them get undone yet. The buses run so much more infrequently than it did pre-COVID making them a PITA to use. What was once every 7 - 9, pre-COVID; is now every 24 - 37, for 4.5 years now. None of our subway lines or bus lines, that all saw major cuts in late 2022/early 2023, are back at even early 2022 service levels yet, with at least almost half a year still to go, before any of our subway lines get anywhere near there, or maybe the 104/109/110/116 might get some extra service this winter. But what about the rest of the bus routes?

Eng has promised to "restore service". Some of the subway lines have recovered and partially undo the spring 2023 slow zones and service cuts, but not yet undone in full yet. Eng has yet to start delivering early 2022/fall 2021 subway or bus service at all yet. The summer 2022 subway service cuts haven't been undone yet. The summer 2023/early 2022 bus service cuts haven't been undone yet. There is almost half a year of pain and frustration yet to go and still ahead of us.

Let me make a guess at throwing darts at a wall for what kind of service the T will restore in Fall 2024, set to begin August 25, 2024.

Maybe the RL adds 3 more wkdy trips? OL with maybe 2 more wkdy trips? Add lets say 1 more wkdy trip to maybe just the 39? The T might hold back all the service restorations until after the Nov. 2024 election, making riders wait all the way until the dark days of winter to maybe get their service back. Want better off peak service? Nah, who needs off peak service, when fixing slow zones allows restoration of just peak service only for just the 9-5 office commuters only.

The RL set for major accelerated repairs to fix the goddamn basically unusable line in September 2024. However the Fall rating starts August 25, 2024. Good luck restoring pre-COVID/pre-2022 15 minute off-peak headways on the RL. Since the monthlong shutdown of the Braintree Branch is not until September 6, 2024, that means today's complete garbage 18 - 22 off peak headways of the Red Line branches likely needs to be kept for the Fall 2024 rating in it's entirety until December 15, 2024! The T doesn't reset subway schedules after a subway shutdown! The T only resets subway schedules every 3 months! And they don't have to reset weekend schedules either, they only have to reset weekday schedules, like what they did to the RL during Summer 2024!

Riders will likely need to contend with horrible off peak 22 minute Braintree Branch service and off peak 15 minute Orange Line garbage service for the rest of 2024! Since the OL shutdowns are delayed until Halloween, midway through the fall 2024 rating, no improved weekend service coming soon, wait until after the election for who knows what! So much low hanging fruit. If a few slow zones were fixed here and there during early 2024, then weekend service could have improved in Summer 2024 with 1 or 2 weekend trips added to the schedule. Yet the T couldn't be bothered to restore service outside of weekday peak periods! Also the new contract from August 2023? 11 months later and we're still waiting for literally any bus service restorations, but hey, a midday service CUT for the 47 in June 2024!

 

[Koopzilla24]

Interesting question and response from Eng at the Fairmount battery train live thing today:

Someone asked about the decision to go with battery electric trains as opposed to fully electrifying with catenary. The response was a lot of the usual capital costs too high for what the T gets from the feds and state, this allows them to implement electrified service sooner, etc but an interesting thing specifically mentioned is their intent to get enough train sets to both support 20min Fairmount service but also trial electrified service on other lines. In particular they mentioned how the Providence line is already electrified while the short Stoughton branch is not. They also kept saying they want to get this service sooner so there is a push behind the scenes to accelerate rolling stock procurement and small maintenance facility construction to facilitate a service start date before 2028 in some capacity.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Interesting question and response from Eng at the Fairmount battery train live thing today:

Someone asked about the decision to go with battery electric trains as opposed to fully electrifying with catenary. The response was a lot of the usual capital costs too high for what the T gets from the feds and state, this allows them to implement electrified service sooner, etc but an interesting thing specifically mentioned is their intent to get enough train sets to both support 20min Fairmount service but also trial electrified service on other lines. In particular they mentioned how the Providence line is already electrified while the short Stoughton branch is not. They also kept saying they want to get this service sooner so there is a push behind the scenes to accelerate rolling stock procurement and small maintenance facility construction to facilitate a service start date before 2028 in some capacity.

That's a load of bull. It took only 3-1/2 years from inking of the design-build contract to full completion for Amtrak to electrify 155 miles of track from New Haven to South Station, substations and all. That's a shorter timeframe than they're aiming for with the BEMU's, and it was a way more complex undertaking. A 9.2 mile line like Fairmount with no dedicated substation wouldn't take any longer if they were serious about getting it started. Ditto the 4-mile Stoughton Branch. Electrification of these lines is not a megaproject. Eng is just waving the "can't build" white flag again.

And as for "costs too high"...look, have you seen what BEMU sets are going for? Caltrain is spending $80M for a single four-car Stadler KISS BEMU set, about 4x the going rate for the same agency's straight EMU's. And that's pretty much the only make they'd be able to get on the property in 4 years, since there's nothing else in-production that's FRA-compliant and compatible with East Coast full-high platforms. There's no way the fixed capital costs of stringing up the wire are going to do worse than the vehicle procurement costs for the lines in question. They're just sacking the cost overruns on the procurement line item instead of the construction line item.

 

[Delvin4519]

Fall 2024 service changes

Fall 2024 Service Changes | Previous Service Changes | MBTA

Official website of the MBTA -- schedules, maps, and fare information for Greater Boston's public transportation system, including subway, commuter rail, bus routes, and boat lines.

www.mbta.com

Some of the service cuts from the great bus service massacre of Summer 2023 ARE STILL NOT RESTORED. Weekend service on the 57 and 108 buses were cut in Summer 2023, and in fall 2024 this change still isn't restored!!!

There's not enough information to determine whether "improved schedule reliability" are hidden talk for "frequency decreases". There's a LOT of this "improved schedule reliability" that was a COVER UP for a SERVICE CUT of the 47 back in June 2024. We're waiting for GTFS and PDF schedules to come out. Stay tuned for additional posts.

EDIT: PDFs are out but not GTFS

 

[Koopzilla24]

That's a load of bull. It took only 3-1/2 years from inking of the design-build contract to full completion for Amtrak to electrify 155 miles of track from New Haven to South Station, substations and all. That's a shorter timeframe than they're aiming for with the BEMU's, and it was a way more complex undertaking. A 9.2 mile line like Fairmount with no dedicated substation wouldn't take any longer if they were serious about getting it started. Ditto the 4-mile Stoughton Branch. Electrification of these lines is not a megaproject. Eng is just waving the "can't build" white flag again.

And as for "costs too high"...look, have you seen what BEMU sets are going for? Caltrain is spending $80M for a single four-car Stadler KISS BEMU set, about 4x the going rate for the same agency's straight EMU's. And that's pretty much the only make they'd be able to get on the property in 4 years, since there's nothing else in-production that's FRA-compliant and compatible with East Coast full-high platforms. There's no way the fixed capital costs of stringing up the wire are going to do worse than the vehicle procurement costs for the lines in question. They're just sacking the cost overruns on the procurement line item instead of the construction line item.

I'm just the messenger, but Keolis and the MBTA will be leasing the BEMUs not procuring a build-order so they will be significantly cheaper (the whole project budget is ~$60mil). Being the only way to get the state to actually fund some form of electrification in the nearer-term the idea is to get some trains with the limited capabilities of what full electrification could do, run some service to demonstrate how much of an improvement a full build would be, and have concrete proof of its merit to those in the state legislature who weren't convinced to commit the funding beforehand.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

I'm just the messenger, but Keolis and the MBTA will be leasing the BEMUs not procuring a build-order so they will be significantly cheaper (the whole project budget is ~$60mil). Being the only way to get the state to actually fund some form of electrification in the nearer-term the idea is to get some trains with the limited capabilities of what full electrification could do, run some service to demonstrate how much of an improvement a full build would be, and have concrete proof of its merit to those in the state legislature who weren't convinced to commit the funding beforehand.

There's literally nothing available for lease. Caltrain is spending $80M for one 4-car Stadler KISS demonstrator set ($20M/car, high because it's the first-time customization KISS BEMU demonstrator), and Metra is spending $154M for eight off-shelf 2-car Stadler FLIRT Akkus ($9.6M per car). None of the options on either order (+32 cars for Metra, undisclosed for Caltrain because their BEMU's are trailing options on the straight-EMU order) have been picked up yet, and the FLIRTs only board at 8-inch platforms so that whole make is totally inapplicable here. There are no adaptable Euro makes that have achieved FRA compliance...the Euro FLIRTs all have the same platform incompatibility and would need a fresh customization on a fresh order to fit here, the Caltrain KISS is the only BEMU-variant KISS in active use-or-order on the planet so no unmodified KISSes are available, and the other makes bid to the T in their BEMU RFP all have to be fresh procurements because their Euro equivalents have not been adapted yet for FRA compliance.

They kind of have to explain how they plan to go about this, because there is no extant path forward on the current market to make it happen. Nor any extant pricing that would allow them to get enough cars on the property to actually run Fairmount service within the $60M budgeted. It's all make-believe until they can substantiate how they can actually pull it off against the whole lot of nothing that's available.

 

[cubbe8]

There's literally nothing available for lease. Caltrain is spending $80M for one 4-car Stadler KISS demonstrator set ($40M/car, high because it's the first-time customization KISS BEMU demonstrator), and Metra is spending $154M for eight off-shelf 2-car Stadler FLIRT Akkus ($9.6M per car). None of the options on either order (+32 cars for Metra, undisclosed for Caltrain because their BEMU's are trailing options on the straight-EMU order) have been picked up yet, and the FLIRTs only board at 8-inch platforms so that whole make is totally inapplicable here. There are no adaptable Euro makes that have achieved FRA compliance...the Euro FLIRTs all have the same platform incompatibility and would need a fresh customization on a fresh order to fit here, the Caltrain KISS is the only BEMU-variant KISS in active use-or-order on the planet so no unmodified KISSes are available, and the other makes bid to the T in their BEMU RFP all have to be fresh procurements because their Euro equivalents have not been adapted yet for FRA compliance.

They kind of have to explain how they plan to go about this, because there is no extant path forward on the current market to make it happen. Nor any extant pricing that would allow them to get enough cars on the property to actually run Fairmount service within the $60M budgeted. It's all make-believe until they can substantiate how they can actually pull it off against the whole lot of nothing that's available.

They will probably lease Stadler KISS from somewhere.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

They will probably lease Stadler KISS from somewhere.

That's what I said...they can't. The singular Caltrain demonstrator unit is the only KISS BEMU on Planet Earth. Nobody else in Europe or elsewhere has placed a BEMU order of them yet; Caltrain's demonstrator is the first-time customization for that whole make. Caltrain hasn't exercised any other options on the BEMU variant (it's thought they'd need a minimum of 6 four-car sets to cover base service on the un-electrified Gilroy tail), and right now they are planning to keep Gilroy primarily diesel until 2030 so no option pickups are expected in the near-term. As of 2024 there is literally nothing applicable in the pipeline available to lease that can get on the property by 2028.

You can't say you're going to short-term lease something when there's no physical way to get something leaseable in for that short term.

 

[CheapLeak]

There's literally nothing available for lease. Caltrain is spending $80M for one 4-car Stadler KISS demonstrator set ($40M/car, high because it's the first-time customization KISS BEMU demonstrator), and Metra is spending $154M for eight off-shelf 2-car Stadler FLIRT Akkus ($9.6M per car). None of the options on either order (+32 cars for Metra, undisclosed for Caltrain because their BEMU's are trailing options on the straight-EMU order) have been picked up yet, and the FLIRTs only board at 8-inch platforms so that whole make is totally inapplicable here. There are no adaptable Euro makes that have achieved FRA compliance...the Euro FLIRTs all have the same platform incompatibility and would need a fresh customization on a fresh order to fit here, the Caltrain KISS is the only BEMU-variant KISS in active use-or-order on the planet so no unmodified KISSes are available, and the other makes bid to the T in their BEMU RFP all have to be fresh procurements because their Euro equivalents have not been adapted yet for FRA compliance.

They kind of have to explain how they plan to go about this, because there is no extant path forward on the current market to make it happen. Nor any extant pricing that would allow them to get enough cars on the property to actually run Fairmount service within the $60M budgeted. It's all make-believe until they can substantiate how they can actually pull it off against the whole lot of nothing that's available.

I know it couldn’t be used as a test due to boarding heights, would would a BR class 745/755/756 (which is technically a FLIRT) adjusted for east coast standards (higher loading gauge, wider) work?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

I know it couldn’t be used as a test due to boarding heights, would would a BR class 754/755 (which is technically a FLIRT) adjusted for east coast standards (higher loading gauge, wider) work?

Where are you going to get them? Nobody's ordering an "adjusted for east coast standards" FLIRT. They don't exist on anybody's tracks or on anybody's procurement paperwork. The T says they want to do this BEMU pilot with a lease. That means you have to have a pre-existing FRA-compliant fleet of them somewhere with the applicable boarding heights (the BR Class 754/755 isn't it...it's short by more than a foot), or at least an ongoing order of them with slush options that can be quickly exercised and then leased out. There is no such thing available anywhere on the planet with any applicable make. The closest applicable thing is the ultra-expensive Caltrain KISS demonstrator, and that too does not exist for lease purposes so long as all of its order options project to be un-exercised for the foreseeable future.