Green Line Extension to Medford & Union Sq

First off, how the hell could an extension of this size cost $3 Billion?
It shouldn't. It won't. Everyone knows that a screwed up procurement process let the contractors quote rip-off costs. Nobody who likes building public transit wants to see it done this way.
Second, it seems like some people are completely ignoring the massive increase and are instead looking for ways to pay for the new estimated cost.
Which "people"? The "right" holds this up as a poster child for runaway spending and the left can ding greedy/corrupt corporations for spoiling our public infrastructure. We hashed out pretty well upthread that at these prices the GLX is not good value for money on virtually any proposed justification: mobility, CO2, or Asthma in EJ communities. Anybody (at current prices) who wants cleaner air, less CO2, or better core-cities mobility would get far better value from a portfolio of other projects instead of this one. Even the CLF has to know in its heart that this is not the project it signed (us all) up for.

That leaves just a hard core of abutting owners who act like they're owed the GLX (because it is great) plus mitigation (because it is awful) no matter what the price tag. Nobody else is talking "build at this price"/"build at any price"

That said, the State's solution is to share the pain: get contractors down on price to bring the "public benefit" Value/Price ratio back in line, and get other actors to share some of their property value and RE tax windfall to pay for this.
 
First off, how the hell could an extension of this size cost $3 Billion?

Mismanagement and corruption. You can not overstate how absurd the price tag is.

Light rail

Wikipedia said:
A survey of North American light rail projects[28] shows that costs of most LRT systems range from $15 million to over $100 million per mile. Seattle's new light rail system is by far the most expensive in the US, at $179 million per mile, since it includes extensive tunneling in poor soil conditions, elevated sections, and stations as deep as 180 feet (55 m) below ground level.

This was being quoted at $600 million per mile. Re-read that. Just think about that. The US as a whole, which already has absurdly bloated costs for these projects, spends 1/10 the amount this was going to cost. That makes me sick.
 
Is the plan likely to be.
A) here's how much money we have, what can you build us for that?
or
B) we know we need more money so we'll put this whole thing on ice till the cities and the private sector cough up more?
or a bit of both?
 
A) here's how much money we have, what can you build us for that?...
B) we know we need more money so we'll put this whole thing on ice till the cities and the private sector cough up more?
Secretary Pollack wondered aloud on just this scope->money->scope circle:
“We have a chicken and egg problem,” said state Transportation Secretary Stephanie Pollack. She said businesses are unwilling to say how much money they would be willing to put up without knowing what the project will look like and state officials are reluctant to firm up the design of the project without knowing how much money they have to spend.
Clearly they're going to have to get everyone to move at (about) the same time, since nobody thinks it is their job to close the gap all by themselves (through scope cuts vs local/private financing)
 
Mismanagement and corruption. You can not overstate how absurd the price tag is.

Light rail



This was being quoted at $600 million per mile. Re-read that. Just think about that. The US as a whole, which already has absurdly bloated costs for these projects, spends 1/10 the amount this was going to cost. That makes me sick.

And furthermore, don't you think these "I crap bigger'n you" contractors who just got dropped would be raising a stink or dropping hints of legal retribution by now?

Nary a peep.

They know they got caught red-handed. It's either slink away quietly and put it to bed or resistance will get them trotted out for show investigations covered daily in the local media. They went away whisper-silent because they determined that surrendering was better for business than pushing back and earning a very surgical and public deconstruction of how exactly they schemed--whether full pants-on-fire illegal or 'technically' legal by the barest pathetic shred of plausible deniability--to bilk the state out of 10 figures.

Think about that for a second. What behavior of theirs was so bad, so flagrant, and so likely traceable in a full postmortem...that this ended up the better option in a situation where they otherwise could've/should've intimidated the state for a bigger severance pound of flesh or bullied their way into keeping the project? So bad that they're shuffling away quietly while the real no-foolin' indicted Big Dig contractors didn't?


I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in that meeting between the two parties where the state's legal rep shoved a piece of paper in front of the contractors' legal reps and said, "You can either leave town right this second and not look back, or [*tapping finger on paper*] this is how we go after you in a very public way."
 
Nobody else is talking "build at this price"/"build at any price"

Well, in this thread, the most recent post had one post saying we should "Toll 93". Perhaps he was making a side point - I'll leave it from him to say which is which. But within the context, it seems to be an argument to look for ways to raise more funds.

And while here doesn't have many examples. At UHub, a good portion of the comments are along lines of what happens when you elect Republican-Infrastructure-Killer-Baker, raise the gas tax (thus another "look for ways to pay"), and basically how are aren't just spending more. A few pointed out how the project really is insanely priced and they got very little thumbs what they prefer to fix this problem.

the left can ding greedy/corrupt corporations for spoiling our public infrastructure

From the above, it seems the left is instead ignoring and bashing Republican Baker and his train and infrastructure hating ways.

They know they got caught red-handed. It's either slink away quietly and put it to bed or resistance will get them trotted out for show investigations covered daily in the local media. They went away whisper-silent because they determined that surrendering was better for business than pushing back and earning a very surgical and public deconstruction of how exactly they schemed--whether full pants-on-fire illegal or 'technically' legal by the barest pathetic shred of plausible deniability--to bilk the state out of 10 figures.

You know, the way you put it like that. I really do wish WSK decided to be total idiots and double down with a push back. From what I said above, it seems way too many are ignoring how much assholes these contractors are. They should be exposed and exposed hard, their BS is bad and they should feel bad. Then after getting the shamming they deserve, get this done not just at the previously estimated price, but far below that.
 
You know, the way you put it like that. I really do wish WSK decided to be total idiots and double down with a push back. From what I said above, it seems way too many are ignoring how much assholes these contractors are. They should be exposed and exposed hard, their BS is bad and they should feel bad. Then after getting the shamming they deserve, get this done not just at the previously estimated price, but far below that.

The contractors were clearly scheming assholes, BUT...

The Commonwealth, DOT, MBTA were also total rubes in their implementation of the bid process. They almost asked the contractors to steal the project blind.

No one smells good in this situation.
 
The contractors were clearly scheming assholes, BUT...

The Commonwealth, DOT, MBTA were also total rubes in their implementation of the bid process. They almost asked the contractors to steal the project blind.

No one smells good in this situation.

+1

I also want to point out: at national average pricing, this would have gotten completely built with just the already spent sunk costs alone. So, after. paying the contractors what was paid, we should have the entire GLX, but instead we have nothing.

It's really quite pathetic.

If MA could get things built at industry-standard pricing, we could actually have some of the "Crazy Transit Pitch" projects. Hopefully, this will result in better practices and thus, more infrastructure! I'm trying to be optimistic.
 
I will second the proposal of anyone who wants tolls, gas taxes, parking fees, or congestion charges--they actually would work to reduce illnesses in EJ communities and speed the trips of those driving and give us plenty of transit funding. With the Saudis fighting for market share just as Iranian oil comes online we are missing a historic opportunity to put a quick 25c/gal fuel tax on, with like a 5 year sunset or a circuit breaker should oil unexpectedly rise.

All that said it would be a mistake to let the contractors rob us as the "old" GLX did. If you believe in the power of the government to do good, you'll get more good if you don't overpay.
 
Why cant they just build to Union Square as a starter
 
Well, in this thread, the most recent post had one post saying we should "Toll 93". Perhaps he was making a side point - I'll leave it from him to say which is which. But within the context, it seems to be an argument to look for ways to raise more funds.

New revenues SHOULD be discussed and found. Not to pay for price-gouged contracts, but just generally speaking. We don't have the funds to maintain and improve our transportation system in the ways that it needs. "Reform first" all you want, but acting like we can reform and cut our way out of our infrastructure hole is head-in-the-sand idiocy. Yes, we've been burned by corrupt project financing and largesse time and time again. Yes, we should be vigilant about ballooning project costs (as we are being now with GLX albeit too late...). BUT we can't fall into the trap of "no new revenues, only reform and revamp and cancel projects". That will lead to a world of crippled infrastructure and economic pain.

Why cant they just build to Union Square as a starter

Discussed at length a page or two back.
 
New revenues SHOULD be discussed and found. Not to pay for price-gouged contracts, but just generally speaking. We don't have the funds to maintain and improve our transportation system in the ways that it needs. "Reform first" all you want, but acting like we can reform and cut our way out of our infrastructure hole is head-in-the-sand idiocy. Yes, we've been burned by corrupt project financing and largesse time and time again. Yes, we should be vigilant about ballooning project costs (as we are being now with GLX albeit too late...). BUT we can't fall into the trap of "no new revenues, only reform and revamp and cancel projects". That will lead to a world of crippled infrastructure and economic pain.

It's unfortunate that other examples of rampant government waste cannot be as concretely laid bare as a transit project can - most of the bloated bureaucracy's expenditures are buried much more discreetly... at any rate - people arent morons and they are right to demand to know where their money is going... personally i agree that other revenues are also in order but it's not unreasonable for a resident of this state to oppose that given what we know of our own govt.
 
New revenues SHOULD be discussed and found.

Discussed at length a page or two back.

The MBTA tries advertisement revenue but then every few months once the MBTA finds a lucrative advertisement source like the Alcohol companies,

http://www.wbur.org/2015/10/05/mbta-alcohol-advertisements-ban

or the gaming sites which allow people to win money,
http://www.destructoid.com/boston-s-mbta-pulls-video-game-ads-28581.phtml


or various controversial organizations that pay for the eyeballs everyone gets in an uproar and tells the MBTA to stop taking that money.
http://www.wbur.org/2015/11/23/mbta-political-ads-ban

So the MBTA winds up back at square one.
--
Ad revenue provides bright spot for T
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...e-september/X987eJKvTVa9bLiriFQN9K/story.html

I could care less who advertises. Money is money and everyone has their free speech.
 
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I’m coming late to the party on GLX contract cancellation. I’m going to skip the tangent on additional and/or different revenue sources for either GLX or T in general and go back to the spending side. I’m all in favor of a conversation on revenues, mind you, but I share the desire to get spending under control as a first priority.

As this GLX upheaval has unfolded, I’ve found grounds for cautious optimism. But I need to separate out what’s happening to GLX specifically, from what needs to happen to the T more generally.

On the GLX specifically, we were clearly getting ripped off by unscrupulous firms. More broadly, the MBTA’s planning, budgeting, and contract admin processes were deeply culpable by way of weakness and incompetence. If it was this bad on the GLX, it may very well have been bad on other projects – though I realize they got pressed into using a different process on GLX so maybe that’s not completely fair.

I support the cancellation of GLX contracts as a way to hit the re-set button on GLX specifically. From the tone of the reports and meetings, it seems that if the T even just rebid the remaining work out on the exact same plans, but with better bid procedures, they should obtain substantial savings. And if there are additional savings to be had from some re-designs, fine, let’s do that too, if it can be done without crippling the end results for users.

For the longer term, I think the angst we’re all experiencing as T advocates is a necessary thing, IF Baker and the Legislature are committed to more than just whacking this one project (more on that below). Anyone besides me ever started up a workout regime after getting out of shape? One feels even shittier before eventually feeling better. Reforming a dysfunctional organization is similar: there are inevitably some really bad moments at the start.

So we have a Republican Governor hacking his way through the T looking for all the low-hanging fruit he can find. (Speaking as a Democrat, I would really like to hear from the Rich Davey / Deval Patrick / Dem-controlled Legislature why the hell they didn’t do this.) The question for me: is Baker / the Legislature looking to kill off the GLX, count the $xBillion saved as the “eliminated waste”, declare victory, and call it a day? That would piss me off bitterly, and I agree with F-Line it could cause grave risks to Baker’s (and others') re-election chances. Or is Baker looking at killing off the rotten procedures so as to get the T on a footing to be able to rebid the GLX at an acceptable price and then also do a better job on all future cap/ex projects? If yes, that would please me immensely; hell, I’d cross lines and vote for him if the Dems once again puke forth someone as weak as Coakley. With someone like Pollack as his Transportation Secretary and someone like Aiello on his T control board, along with the various signaling and hinting that’s come out during this GLX contract cancellation, I’ve seen some cautious grounds for believing Baker wants to go the latter route. If not, he might not be around long.

A really big indicator for me for the long run will be if we see some evidence that the T is staffing up in the department(s) responsible for planning, budgeting, bid/contract admin, and construction admin. I am strongly convinced that the T over time has been severely penny wise / dollar foolish in this regard, cutting back staff so badly that each year they “save” a million or two on payroll to end up with a staff so weak they lose (really lose, not “lose”) tens-to-hundreds of millions each year (and billions each decade) getting ripped off by private companies that are not at all stupid enough to cut their counterpart staff who put together corrupt bids. This would be another place where the new workout regime would hurt before it felt better. Baker / Pollack would have to have the guts to say, “we need to spend $xxx more per year in the short term to rebuild this internal capacity, in order to save $xxx multiplied by yy order of magnitude each year going forward.” I haven’t seen that happening yet, but I’ve seen comments from Pollack and Aiello to indicate they understand this very well. And I think Baker understands that sort of concept very well. That’s what I’m looking for more generally.

On GLX, if they start rebidding out the segments that really can’t be “value engineered” down, that’ll be a good sign from the project-specific perspective. I bet there are at least a few segments where it can be pretty quickly determined that there’s no “value engineering” to be done. (I put “VE” in scare quotes because in my line of work we call VE “neither of the above”.) Capuano’s comments from the Congressional perspective were also heartening.

So I see cancelling GLX contracts as a necessary painful first step, like that first day back to the gym after letting oneself go soft (and the even worse second day). The worst is felt among the lower-level people who lost their jobs without having been culpable for the worst sins (or any sins, in some cases). It sucks for them, I try to not lose sight of that as I sit here still employed. It still needed to be done.
 
The Big Dig is like the huge-ass gift that keeps on giving. First it adds tremendous capacity to auto routes into the city at costs that are laughably over budget, and in the process dispenses with all transit expansion options that could've and should've been connected with it (NSRL, TWT 3rd bore, etc). Now the same malfeasance continues, AND the hangover remains, making even relatively small-fry projects like GLX impossible to execute. And the further irony is that small-fry projects like GLX are the result of lawsuits stemming from the Big Dig, led by none other than Stephanie Pollack, who in her role now seems to be at a loss for how to push this forward and may end up killing it.

All this twisted history points to one solution that really can't be ignored any longer: TOLL 93. I'm fairly certain that the Feds could make an exception here to the general policy they have regarding interstate tolls. Even if not, I think legally an arrangement could be worked whereby the highway exits coming onto Atlantic/Purchase are tolled, while highway entry from downtown and highway through-traffic remains free. That ends up being more of a "city-street congestion charge" than a 93 toll, and may be perfectly kosher even in light of Federal guidelines. Functionally it does the trick. If Pollack were serious about getting these things funded, this would be where to look. I think, after this contract crisis is over, that it's got to be the next step in the fight to position transit expansion as a viable and sustainable priority.

"Dream a little dream ......" Shep you and the "T at all costs" sect have to come to terms with reality at some point

Money is money and taxes, tolls, fees all hit the people who are working and struggling to live at a reasonable standard in this very expensive and getting more so state.

Excessive taxes, regulation, cost of energy and fees are the impediments that businesses much balance against the advantages of talent and the U's when they are choosing where to expand or relocate. Squeeze the talented harder and they will leave and if the companies can't hire the top talent then they too will go.

Until the global, US and New England economy starts producing lots of jobs paying "good wages" there will be no money for anything except fixing the most critical problems

No Southcoast, No NSRL and its looking increasingly as if there will be no GLX or it will be significantly scaled down.
 
[IMG]https://www.boston.com/ae/celebrity/more_names/blog/howie.jpg[/IMG] said:
"Dream a little dream ......" Shep you and the "T at all costs" sect have to come to terms with reality at some point

Money is money and taxes, tolls, fees all hit the people who are working and struggling to live at a reasonable standard in this very expensive and getting more so state.

Excessive taxes, regulation, cost of energy and fees are the impediments that businesses much balance against the advantages of talent and the U's when they are choosing where to expand or relocate. Squeeze the talented harder and they will leave and if the companies can't hire the top talent then they too will go.

Until the global, US and New England economy starts producing lots of jobs paying "good wages" there will be no money for anything except fixing the most critical problems

No Southcoast, No NSRL and its looking increasingly as if there will be no GLX or it will be significantly scaled down.

Tell us again about how deeply concerned you are about the plight of urban poverty like you did on Page 95 before you pulled the perfunctory week in hiding in the safety of the Dev forum's pretty picture threads to avoid getting called out for racist dogwhistling?


Oh, darn...he didn't think we'd remember the last several-page threadshit-'o-thon before beginning the next threadshit-'o-thon, and is running for the door again. :rolleyes:
 
Tell us again about how deeply concerned you are about the plight of urban poverty like you did on Page 95 before you pulled the perfunctory week in hiding in the safety of the Dev forum's pretty picture threads to avoid getting called out for racist dogwhistling?

In the spirit of the season I'm going to ignore the preamble about my motives

The issue is to make sure that we don't entrench poverty -- Just perhaps we can separate rhetoric from policy

I don't think that there is anyone here who wants to entrench poverty, whether urban or rural -- the key is how to improve the lot of the people currently living in poverty in the US [the rest of the world I'll leave to another forum]

We've tried for 50 years the unlimited growth of a nameless, faceless, careless bureaucracy -- aka "LBJ's War on Poverty"

Just perhaps we can try a new approach to helping an area that is currently poor -- and which in a few decades can become not-poor

Start by embracing and empowering the people who live there with a stake in improving their own lives and the lives of all in the community

Then encourage innovation and support entrepreneurialism -- Oh damn that seems to be the basis of success of the US [at least in the past]

Note that the above doesn't preclude the local and high level governments taking an interest and even contributing things such as the Interstate Highways, Public Libraries, Satellite platforms for observation and communications, or the Internet -- It just means that there are things best left local and few and well defined things for higher governments

Editors note -- Fortunately for my self image I don't resemble any of the images which you have used to attempt to caricature me and my comments
 
^ Along these lines, I'd say that simply improving a place where poor people happen to currently live mostly serves to invite gentrification and displacement/dispersement. That's the story for most inner neighborhoods as shorter commuting times/distances have attracted in rich(er) people to what were (from 1950 to 2000) considered "bad" neighborhoods.

So I'd rather improve the lot of the poor with a higher minimum wage, universal healthcare, Section 8 vouchers, and more affordable education, and zero (point) emission cars (as California has) and empower them to live wherever they want.

The California program does require you to live in a low-income + bad pollution area and gives you $12k for an EV (near-enough to buy a 3-year old Nissan Leaf in California), plus $2k for a charger...or just $4k worth of transit vouchers. But for those looking for life/health/EJ win in Somerville, I'd say a program like Californias, at $14k per household x 1000 (for EVs) would work a world of good for just $14m and then $4k in transit x 9000 households for $36m, and you've done a whole lot of immediate good for $50m. Revolutionize 20k housholds for $100m...and you could do that again for 400k households for the same $2b that we're willing to spend on 40k households on the GLX.

The EV-replacement plan is particularly effective because the poor tend to drive older, dirtier, more poorly-maintained cars. High emitters.
 
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Note that the above doesn't preclude the local and high level governments taking an interest and even contributing things such as the Interstate Highways, Public Libraries, Satellite platforms for observation and communications, or the Internet

Really you want to include interstate highways as a benefit?

I think poor neighborhoods got more than enough of those and they certainly don't help unless your talking about a suburban or rural area and even then land right next to a highway is nearly always less valuable.

The other suggestions are good overall, but building an interstate highway in a poor neighborhood to "help it" is one of the first things any professor in an urban studies or planning course will say not to do and that is supported by real world evidence of the harm they cause.
 
...

So can someone help me understand what the 'innovative procurement method' for GLX was? With all the commotion about the MBTA at large, it seems reasonable to focus on this novel procurement process in particular as a leading factor in this fiasco.

My very superficial understanding is that it was essentially 'design-build' but on a cost-plus basis. Which is really stupid, obviously. Am I on the right track?
 

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