Green Line Extension to Medford & Union Sq

Is there anything operationally-prohibitive (forget about politically-prohibitive) to a Lechmere-Washington-Gilman extension with the Maintenance & Storage Facility completed as well?
 
Is there anything operationally-prohibitive (forget about politically-prohibitive) to a Lechmere-Washington-Gilman extension with the Maintenance & Storage Facility completed as well?

No. They can run it full-blast. It's more that breaking the phasing 2 stations at a time is much less costly than 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1. And since cost efficiency is be-all/end-all at the moment, if Gilman's built Lowell St. goes in the package.

Like I said...once they decided to segment the sequencing they picked the chunks that were most efficient. Anything else like "build Union first, forget the rest", or "skip this for later, build that" unfavorably warps it. Union because you're building all that flyover crap (already under construction!) any which way so deferring Washington saves little, adds cost for next phase. Deferring Lowell on next for Gilman saves little because ROW prep is ready-serve at that point for doing both, the connection from pre-existing Community Path to extension Community Path is dependent on all that ROW prep to Lowell St., and coming back later to infill that stop costs 1-1/2 times as much as doing the two-for-one package (again, mainly driven by the non-optional retaining wall work). And yada yada Ball + College Ave.

Route 16's the only one that's a truly independent +1 phase. Which is why when they get all this base build shock-and-awe behind them the +1 is a simpler Tufts conversation about picking up larger portion of the station bill. Since by that point they'll have completed buyout of just about all the properties on the North St.-16 block of Boston Ave. for future self-serving TOD, and probably have scooped up the land underneath the Whole Foods and Sav-Mor for later tall build once the station anchor is clinched. That 16 stop is going to be way more 'theirs' than College Ave. and a simpler public-private transaction to get going when the time comes. I don't have a lot of doubts that we eventually see 16 go on the board once College Ave. gets done. We just have to get over the current trauma before it re-enters conversation in any way/shape/form.
 
F-Line, thanks for linking to my post. Denver FasTracks is very instructive but it's important we put it in the right context. Firstly, everyone should keep this in mind:

Other cities would kill to be in a position to have extensions like GLX; even at the inflated cost.

Listen, I'm in no mood to overpay for projects so I want the powers at be to push the contractors back down to the max. However, as you watch all these Western cities build transit lines none of them are in a position to build any one transit line that delivers as much mobility as GLX does; especially for $1bn in state money (because another $1bn is coming from the Fed). Even on the high end of another $2bn in state money (assuming there are no savings from contractor scam inflated amount) GLX still looks like a bargain for the Western States who have trouble coming up with projects that can move this many people without going deep into the multiple billions range. None of the Denver lines come close to GLX. A lot of LA’s lines don’t either. GLX might be a short extension but it is a home-run in terms of mobility enhancement. That is the Boston advantage (mostly because of different land use patterns) and that’s why if the Denver FasTracks people were here they would be doing cartwheels with joy in how much they could do for the same dollar amount they are spending in Denver (even accounting for Boston’s increased construction cost).

That's the irony in all of this. The Western cities see the cost/benefit ledger and are making the choice to tax themselves and build transit because they know:

-Congestion costs money and so do new highway lane miles. Something needs to be done and you might as well get the most bang for your buck; and

-Foregone economic development and competitiveness is a real cost. It isn't a nice to have.

In Boston we are just too quick to forget that. The reason I think is because- and I go over this in my post F-Line links to- is that we do all our projects in one-offs. That means that any one project becomes a “well how come we are spending so much to bring the green line to Medford, or the Blue line to Lynn, etc.” What we would benefit from is a region-wide vision for transit that everyone could get behind. Then we would be able to put these numbers in a better context rather than jumping down each other’s throat about the merits of building a proper station vs. asphalt slabs.

The same spirit that is leading voters across car-centric- sometimes Republican voter dominated- cities in the American West to vote to tax themselves to build transit lines has not passed Boston. However, the difference is that true visions are being proposed that benefit a broad swath of the region; not one offs like GLX. We have the same capacity here; we just lack the visionary region-wide transit proposal that people will rally around.

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Thought Experiment:

In my long post that F-Line linked to I outlined my concept of a regional visionary transit proposal. It was basically North South Rail Link regional rail plus some rapid transit expansions that become extremely acute in light of north south rail link. Moreover, I proposed a carbon tax to pay for it with half of the proceeds of the carbon tax refunded back to taxpayers.

I thought that the carbon tax was a nice way to fund transit because it has the duel benefit of reducing carbon emissions along with increasing transit use. Also, taxpayers statewide would be entitled to a refund so the “spoils” of the new tax wouldn’t just hogged by Boston. However, I admit it there are a lot of moving parts to it; at least as compared to other tax levies.

So let’s look at something much more straightforward. What about a 1 penny sales tax statewide that sunsets in 30 years to strictly pay for transportation? As of now about 1 cent of the sales tax currently goes straight to the MBTA. In Fiscal Year 2015 that amounted to $810,637,174 (source see page 31: http://www.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/A...OfficialStatement2014SeriesASalesTaxBonds.pdf).

Let’s imagine you say that 75% of this new penny sales tax will be used to pay for the new T regional transit vision that I outlined- Boston FasTracks- which cost by my high estimate $23.5bn.

The other 25% of this penny sales tax would be put toward road and rail improvements all outside the MBTA district (i.e. it would all be spent in areas that weren’t touched by the other 75%).

Assuming a 2% per annum growth rate of the sales tax receipts (that’s not an aggressive estimate) over the life of the tax that is $24.6 bn in monies for Boston FasTracks and $8.2bn in monies for everywhere else in the Commonwealth for road/transit/rail projects as is deemed fit by the people in those areas.

Those are transformational amounts of money in addition to all current spending. You could easily bang out most of the no-nonsense T expansions that have been contemplated for decades and bring most of the rest of the state into SGR on the other transport assets like roads, highways and bridges.

What’s more, not only do you have the vast majority of the voting population affected by the Boston/MBTA area major transit expansion -because the project scope is where most of the people are- but citizens everywhere else gets to participate too by virtue of 25% of the tax being obligated for other areas. This all sounds eminently achievable in Massachusetts politics and frankly it’s this sort of region wide buy in and broad based tax structure that is working in Western cities- even ones that have a lot of Republican voters who are less likely to vote for new tax levies.

Now with that in mind do you really think that a well-organized ballot initiative here in solidly blue Massachusetts couldn’t get this done? A penny over 30 years to solve a problem that is well recognized across the state and across party lines? I think a penny for Mass Road and Rail would have a very good shot at getting approved if rolled out right.

I hope that puts things more in context. Boston could be like Denver and LA with a few minor changes in how we think about and approach things on transit. In the meantime the fights we are having on GLX are a textbook example of how the old methodology has probably got us as far as it is going to. We either change our approach or get used to old trains and clogged streets.
 
So it's more like you have a pot of up to 40,000 riders. You have some ballpark assumptions on how the pie will divide: Lechmere...lion's share; Gilman...#2 from location; Ball & Lowell...smaller; College/Brickbottom/Union...even match, TOD determines. And the rest of the pie gets sliced by external local conditions and service patterns, not the existence of the thing in the locations where the thing is built.

The new stations account for 14k of the ridership. I think all the rest was at lechmere - govt ctr generated by the increased frequency. The 6 new stations are basically a high ridership key bus route.
 
The new stations account for 14k of the ridership. I think all the rest was at lechmere - govt ctr generated by the increased frequency. The 6 new stations are basically a high ridership key bus route.

14K over 6 stops is 10% higher than the sum-total 13-stop C line, which I suppose makes Beacon St. a not-very-key-at-all bus route. And three-quarters an Ashmont Branch, which I guess makes the Red Line in Dorchester a BRT version of the 39.


What's your point, other than making an airtight case for building it?
 
Just pointing out that most of the project ridership isn't at the new stations. If we're in a position to invest $2b+ on individual key routes count me in. Is the #15 next?
 
the state could save money on the project by cutting down on the size of stations, redesigning the planned route so that one set of commuter rail tracks does not need to be moved, axing the planned extension branch to Somerville’s Union Square, and other options.
http://www.boston.com/news/2016/01/11/the-green-line-extension-fate-could-decided-this-spring/e9NC8F5HrXEpwjBI5whl4L/story.html?p1=well_ICYMI_subheadline_hp

Seems pretty much inline with what we have been talking about.
 
The point about Gilman expected to be high volume station based on the location relative to the McGrath is undermined by the expected "taming" of the McGrath which will push more people onto 93. Better to expand Sullivan Square Station on the Orange Line to handle more people and park more cars.

That said. I don't disagree with the current Gilman Square Station design requirements. You will need to get people across the commuter rail tracks over the top. Versus other locations which have sufficient access from the green line side of the tracks.
 
Other factors beside proximity to McGrath go into why Gilman (my future stop!) is expected to be the most active. As F-Line said, you have Pearl and Medford St (big local arteries) but you also have School St, which functions as a thruway from 93 to Harvard Square, Central Square and environs—particularly for those avoiding the AM backups to Sullivan Square.

There is also proximity of city hall, high school, library—and this would be the stop used by the bulk of the city's affordable housing population.
 
Other factors beside proximity to McGrath go into why Gilman (my future stop!) is expected to be the most active. As F-Line said, you have Pearl and Medford St (big local arteries) but you also have School St, which functions as a thruway from 93 to Harvard Square, Central Square and environs—particularly for those avoiding the AM backups to Sullivan Square.

There is also proximity of city hall, high school, library—and this would be the stop used by the bulk of the city's affordable housing population.


And virtually no parking. So being on some important car routes doesn't matter. And the station isn't designed to have a bus terminal, so transfers would be relying on just a bus stop.

I think the station design requirements (the design result is actually pretty damn ugly) are justified more on the grounds of it serving the high school, civic buildings and it being awkward from the square to have to walk up the hill and around the corner to get around the commuter rail tracks.

But besides the civic stuff we are mostly talking about triple deckers in the neighborhood. Oh and the old folks home which it won't serve because the station is too far away and uphill. In general, I question these ridership projections that are being cited to justify more elaborate stations. They seem very speculative based on longer term expectation of transportation oriented development rather than based on existing demand.
 
Um the red line serves mostly triple decker neighborhoods so I don't think that is a negative as far as ridership is concerned. Triple deckers and two family homes are a pretty dense style of development especially in the form they occur in metro Boston. I just don't see what your issue with this stations estimate is. And the old folks home may run a shuttle to the stop if it is too difficult to get to for the people living there. This is a ridiculous discussion. At this point it seems like you just have some sort of personal issue with this project beyond cost. Maybe I am totally wrong but I will admit it has its flaws but overall it is a very good and much needed extension that should have happened years ago.
 
Um the red line serves mostly triple decker neighborhoods so I don't think that is a negative as far as ridership is concerned. Triple deckers and two family homes are a pretty dense style of development especially in the form they occur in metro Boston. I just don't see what your issue with this stations estimate is. And the old folks home may run a shuttle to the stop if it is too difficult to get to for the people living there. This is a ridiculous discussion. At this point it seems like you just have some sort of personal issue with this project beyond cost. Maybe I am totally wrong but I will admit it has its flaws but overall it is a very good and much needed extension that should have happened years ago.

The issue I have with it is cost and over engineering and over estimating ridership in order to pad costs. And overall poor design of the stations at high cost.

Since the MBTA are in fact currently redesigning the stations to reduce cost/complexity I think I am on solid ground here. Yes it is a ridiculous discussion because whether I am right or not, they are right or not, that is what they are doing.
 
I highly doubt ridership is over estimated I don't know why you think it is these stations are all located in dense residential areas. No they are not currently redesigning anything they are rebidding the project. Not a single design is being changed currently as far as I know. That has been discussed but it is not currently being done so no you are not on solid ground and the cost is a matter of contractor greed and how long this actually getting built has been dragged out.

As far as being overbuilt I don't think anyone has ever complained about the four track central subway having been overbuilt but everyone complains about how the Copley Junction mucks with scheduling so I don't think the flying junction or build as a whole is overbuilt considering Somerville has upzoned the area around every station and this will likely need more service over time and it already is being built in a high transit demand area.

Also by delaying building this project to redesign stations the overall cost of the project will increase in part just because of inflation and also because you are now paying a design team to redo work that was already finished. Which is ridiculous.
 
Since the MBTA are in fact currently redesigning the stations to reduce cost/complexity I think I am on solid ground here. Yes it is a ridiculous discussion because whether I am right or not, they are right or not, that is what they are doing.

I think that slides released in December stated that stations (even at the vastly inflated costs) accounted for $270million total of the overall budget. Redesigning stations and dropping them to platforms still doesn't fill the hole.
 
I think that slides released in December stated that stations (even at the vastly inflated costs) accounted for $270million total of the overall budget. Redesigning stations and dropping them to platforms still doesn't fill the hole.


I believe that was the anticipated cost savings with a redesign.
 
I think that slides released in December stated that stations (even at the vastly inflated costs) accounted for $270million total of the overall budget. Redesigning stations and dropping them to platforms still doesn't fill the hole.

Texian -- No but if you simply try to squeeze the contractors without doing some redesign you won't get very far

To build GLX now -- Everyone involved needs to have some skin in the game:
  • The local community along the ROW needs to scale back the "gold plating"
  • The T needs to compromise some of their wish list
  • Sommerville and possibly Tufts need to pony-up some $ and relax some requirements
  • the Master Contractor and all the subs and suppliers get squeezed and possibly some of the construction financiers need to take a haircut
  • all of the people threatening to sue unless the original project plan is strictly followed need to go sit on a block of ice
Only Then the can you ask the Massachusetts Taxpayer to pay the rest of the over run
 
The official GLX ridership estimate were pretty lowballed, perhaps intentionally. I don't believe they reflected much of the development that has now been planned or built based on the GLX. I saw a presentation yesterday at TRB that was looking at 20-30% higher starting ridership than the official projections, with a lot of that at the smaller stations (Gilman, Ball, and Lowell).
 
I think that slides released in December stated that stations (even at the vastly inflated costs) accounted for $270million total of the overall budget. Redesigning stations and dropping them to platforms still doesn't fill the hole.

No. It deepens the hole to send things into re-design, because change orders are pure unadulterated inflation that cause further inflation from delays. We're starting with stations that as total % of the project pie are very small, with unchanging baseline access requirements that tie up the bulk of their cost...and then are squinting at a vanishingly narrow target within the rest that can be plucked out with tweezers without inducing a major structural change. That pie has been sub-divided so many times to such small scale that transactional formalities like a redesign charges wipe out the savings right away. One touch ends up involving 6 changes, which increases the desperation to start overturning other stones, which racks up more bundles of change orders.

Congratulations, you've shrunk a $270M station package to $290M by cutting features.



Is this short attention-span theatre or something? Or were the non-shouty posts on the last 3 pages written in Klingon or something?
 
No. It deepens the hole to send things into re-design, because change orders are pure unadulterated inflation that cause further inflation from delays. We're starting with stations that as total % of the project pie are very small, with unchanging baseline access requirements that tie up the bulk of their cost...and then are squinting at a vanishingly narrow target within the rest that can be plucked out with tweezers without inducing a major structural change. That pie has been sub-divided so many times to such small scale that transactional formalities like a redesign charges wipe out the savings right away. One touch ends up involving 6 changes, which increases the desperation to start overturning other stones, which racks up more bundles of change orders.

Congratulations, you've shrunk a $270M station package to $290M by cutting features.



Is this short attention-span theatre or something? Or were the non-shouty posts on the last 3 pages written in Klingon or something?

F-Line -- I don't know -- is Warf your new Handle?

You keep flogging the same dead old horse -- Face it - -the GLX that comes out of the process currently underway will be different and it has to be cheaper or its DOA
 

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