Green Line Streetcar extension to Hyde Square

B

bakerm

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
The Arborway Committee for Public Transportation is proposing to extend streetcar service beyond the current Heath St terminus along S. Huntington to Hyde Square. The proposal has been gaining traction by residents and businesses in the Hyde Square area.

arborway.org

https://www.facebook.com/arbcomm
 
Great! We need this, but this should be built alongside improvements to the existing E-Branch, so that the extension is dispatch-able, and can get from point A to point B in a reasonable, predictable, safe amount of time. That means:

  • Eliminate all grade crossing until Brigham Circle. This probably means continuing the Huntington Ave subway until Brigham Circle. Station consolidation may be a (positive) side effect.
  • Station consolidation and/or a trolley reservation past Brigham Circle.
 
Interesting...

12036669_1322158141143723_134404159262299593_n.jpg


11228913_1268599496499588_9210005851437525040_n.jpg


11694885_1266449483381256_3807556456458375048_n.jpg
 
bigeman312 said:
Great! We need this, but this should be built alongside improvements to the existing E-Branch, so that the extension is dispatch-able, and can get from point A to point B in a reasonable, predictable, safe amount of time. That means:

  • Eliminate all grade crossing until Brigham Circle. This probably means continuing the Huntington Ave subway until Brigham Circle. Station consolidation may be a (positive) side effect.
  • Station consolidation and/or a trolley reservation past Brigham Circle.
Click to expand...


Well, no. While that would be helpful and needed, you're transforming a pretty straightforward restoration of some of the old Arborway branch into a major infrastructure project.
 
Yeah, as much as I'd love this - I think any Arborway restoration is out of the question. I've seen these pics before, but I've yet to see a new report (other than the old Arborway Commission rebuttals to the MBTA's "we're not going to do this" analysis). I made a quick sketch-up of the So. Huntington to picture how this would fit in:

So. Huntington (Basis, tried to measure/approximate lane widths with google earth)

So. Huntington with reservation ROW

So. Huntington with Streetrunning ROW (can switch parking lane for travel lane if need be)

There's no way this gets built without whacking on street parking (which is something I'd support, but I can guarantee many residents wouldn't). The MBTA might have to secure some easements by the VA or Angel for some extra space, that'd be a complex and expensive task, and then you'd need to incorporate the service pattern into a line that's already a bit shaky to schedule because of the street-running segment (but at least it doesn't have to deal with the other lines until Copley).

And all of this would be occurring down the street from the Orange Line. I'd like to see E-Hyde Sq happen, but I'd need to see far more than some nice pictures - I think the days of street-running are past, but I'd be happy for my perception to be incorrect.
 
I like this plan. One issue is there's no place to store trains, but they can realign the Heath St loop and continue storing them there.

A problem with the South Huntington Ave stub-end terminal, other than it being a long block away from Hyde Square, is that it's a center platform station in pay-on-boarding territory.
 
ceo said:
I like this plan. One issue is there's no place to store trains, but they can realign the Heath St loop and continue storing them there.

A problem with the South Huntington Ave stub-end terminal, other than it being a long block away from Hyde Square, is that it's a center platform station in pay-on-boarding territory.
Click to expand...

There are four different station layout proposed so far, such as making a more complete & possibly inclosed station on Barbara St and by looping around into Hyde Sq and back on to center street.
 
This is only about 3,000 feet of new street running. (The current section is 3,600 feet). While that still poses operational difficulties, it's within the realm of manageable. Signal priority on the line would do a great deal, as would stronger enforcement of double-parking, and realtime-tracking-driven dispatching will help as well.
 
bakerm said:
There are four different station layout proposed so far, such as making a more complete & possibly inclosed station on Barbara St and by looping around into Hyde Sq and back on to center street.
Click to expand...

Do you have copies of the proposals?

Edit: other than the white paper

Edit 2: nevermind, found them

Ignore all that above.

Neither technology nor engineering has been the issue with Arborway restoration - it's a political issue; why is (or is it at all) this proposal any different from the 30 years worth of pro-restoration advocacy that preceded it? Walsh might not share the same anti-streetrunning zeal of Mayor Menino, but he's hardly a transit expansion advocate. The State's bogged down with GLX overruns, Pollack and Baker aren't exactly chomping at the bit to instigate a new project, the MPO hasn't been pushing it, BTD isn't pushing it (shocking, I know). Arborway Committee makes mention of some of the value capture best practices in the US, but until there's some concrete commitment or detailed implementation plan (that includes the political and financial considerations), is there really any chance this gets off the ground? No one doubts the ability of our transit agencies to put out slick looking wishlists, but getting from paper to approval to construction.....
 
Last edited:
The EGE said:
This is only about 3,000 feet of new street running. (The current section is 3,600 feet). While that still poses operational difficulties, it's within the realm of manageable.
Click to expand...
Any value to going all the way via Paul Gore St or Boylston to get to Orange Line @ Stony Brook?
The EGE said:
Signal priority on the line would do a great deal, as would stronger enforcement of double-parking, and realtime-tracking-driven dispatching will help as well.
Click to expand...
Does the Green line currently have signal priority? I love it and think it should be everywhere, but I'm trying to figure how this new stretch can get it if current legs don't have it.
 
Stony Brook? Not really? The number of OL-GL transfers you'd get is minimal, and they're both narrow one-ways. Getting to Hyde Square knocks most walks around there to about a quarter mile, versus the current half-mile between Hyde Square and Stony Brook.

A small-scale signal priority program is being worked on; there's no good public information available and I'm not exactly privy to private details. I sure hope we actually see signal priority introduced soon; there's some infrastructure cost but it's mostly a petty turf far between BTD and the T.
 
I tried to get this group to advocate for this a decade ago but they wanted full restoration of the entire line to Forest Hills and wouldn't compromise. Glad to see they're still pounding away at getting some streetcar service restored after all these years.
 
There is a lot of support for this from businesses and organizations in Hyde Square. Hyde Square Business Leaders, Mount Pleasant Home, Hope Lodge, Sherrill House, Jamaica Pond Association, the Hyde Square Task Force, and the Boston Redevelopment Authority (http://www.arborway.org/documents/BRA/South-Huntington-Ave-Framework-FINAL_May-2013.pdf). The Hyde Square Initiative has gained some recent media coverage as well (http://blogs.arborway.org/2015/07/by-tobias-johnson-our-event-at-connolly.html).

Edit: Here is a link to all of the proposed Hyde Square terminus designs, along with a link to a site design at the bottom of the page:

http://www.arborway.org/hydesq/terminuses.php#sthash.deNAubAC.dpbs
 
Last edited:
elemenoh said:
I tried to get this group to advocate for this a decade ago but they wanted full restoration of the entire line to Forest Hills and wouldn't compromise. Glad to see they're still pounding away at getting some streetcar service restored after all these years.
Click to expand...

After the lawsuit mandating a full return to Arborway was defeated in 2011, they got smart and realized that Hyde Square was a much better solution. It hits the widest streets, fewest residential abutters (=fewer hard-fought parking spaces to worry about taking away), and the most commercial support. Plus it's the section of the former line with the worst transit access: longer walk to the orange line, doesn't have the 41, and not close enough to Forest Hills that riding the 39 there is attractive.

It'll be an uphill battle: the state won't pay for it post-GLX, but the feds will be wary of anything to do with Massachusetts. But this looks to be a great cost/benefit ratio, and something the community might actually get behind.
 
I wish it would come with some stop consolidation and traffic signal priority. Riding from Heath up to Park is absolutely BRUTAL. Taking the OL and walking is almost always better than the GL for getting anywhere in northern JP.
 
Scalziand said:
I'm surprised that putting a loop in the south parking lot of the animal hospital wasn't one of the options they proposed.

L8ZN7Gg.jpg
Click to expand...

Um, why would they propose taking someone else's land? That's a surefire way to not get a project built.
 
Oops, forgot this wasn't the crazy transit pitches thread.

Seriously though, it reduces traffic conflicts while still getting close to Hyde Square, and provides room for a storage yard.
 
I doubt that the loop needs to be that big but that's actually a pretty good compromise.
 
Scalziand said:
I'm surprised that putting a loop in the south parking lot of the animal hospital wasn't one of the options they proposed.

L8ZN7Gg.jpg
Click to expand...

Not enough land to fit the necessary turn radius of the loop on that footprint. Heath inner loop's got a wider angle than that.

Besides, you don't need to think loops when space is at a premium. Changing ends and having a pocket track for storage is the best way to swing it. Loopage is land-taking without a purpose. What you need to have is pocket track storage that's greater than what Heath currently offers. Only 1 out-of-service set can idle there since one loop has to be kept clear at all times. For Hyde if you can shiv in a Blandford Yard-sized pocket with 2-4 two-car trains of storage you've got a much more reliable backstop for the car supply and ability to wave a standby car into service for on-demand slots (schedule corrections and headway adjustments) where they need to plug a gap sooner than the time it takes to change ends.

So figure out where that pocket goes relative to the station. But don't waste space you don't need to be wasting trying to replicate Heath loop 1:1.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top