Hong Lok House | 11-31 Essex Street | Chinatown

Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

One has to appreciate how a poor subsidized elderly housing developer could afford the expense to save several of these lovely, yet relatively historically insignificant, facades; when just down the street, dirt poor, destitute, and almost homeless Ron Druker just can't afford to save the Shreve's building.

Think anyone at City Hall would notice that?

Well said.

Agree with what seems to be many people in saying the refurbishment/facadectomy here is better than perhaps anything going up de novo right now. And that's sad.
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

One has to appreciate how a poor subsidized elderly housing developer could afford the expense to save several of these lovely, yet relatively historically insignificant, facades; when just down the street, dirt poor, destitute, and almost homeless Ron Druker just can't afford to save the Shreve's building.

Think anyone at City Hall would notice that?

Post of the Year.

This needs to be screamed from every rooftop like in the movie Network.
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

Now seen clear of scaffolding:
20121212-PC120031.jpg
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

Which one of these things is not like the others. Which one of these things just doesn't belong...

I'm joking, BTW. The new building doesn't look too bad.
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

This is actually pretty impressive resurection of streetscape for the area. And the last building in the set (current Hong Lok House with tan fascade and mansard roof) has not yet undgone its rennovation and cleanup.
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

This is a huge improvement over how this streetwall looked before.
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

It's a bit sterile for Chinatown though, isn't it? They couldn't have filled the ground floors with eateries?
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

Are the first floors even ready to be rented to anyone yet? Looks to me like the frontage is still fenced off.
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

20121212-PC120031.jpg


What do modern architects tell themselves to keep their self-respect when seeing their work lined up with its betters?
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

Live in a utopian, rose-colored, unicorn fantasy world much? That would be the modern architects speaking to you Joe. There's plenty of quality modernism out there but if you don't take off your 1875 glasses you can't see it.
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

Live in a utopian, rose-colored, unicorn fantasy world much? That would be the modern architects speaking to you Joe. There's plenty of quality modernism out there but if you don't take off your 1875 glasses you can't see it.

But Brad, do you think most of that "quality modernism" holds a shoe lace to the 1875 product that surrounds it?
And I'm not saying that it's the architects' fault - God knows load-bearing masonry has gone the way of the stage coach. But still, Joe makes a fair point.
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

Ron: Good question. I will look into it. Have to say, it's not prime RE - look at what else is on that block - one hair salon and nothing else. But, if they do get retail, could turn that whole block around.
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

Architecture as a profession has undergone a few major transitions over the course of history.

Architecture as we know it did not really exist until just before the dawn of the industrial age. It was typically a hodgepodge of highly trained craftsmen, engineers, or a person within the elite who designed buildings, with the actual construction and perhaps even detailing left up to the actual builders (who may or may not have been involved with the initial design). It would vary place to place based on tradition. During the 18th century the profession became a bit more defined, as there were go-to people who were desired for their skills and style.

As the profession began to become more refined throughout the late 1700s and early 1800s a debate began to rise as to what, exactly, the role of an architect was. The two schools of thought were torn between whether an architect was analogous to an artist (painter, sculptor, poet), or more similar to an engineer, and what the implications and responsibilities of either choice would be for this newly defined profession.

The most drastic change started in the late 1920s but really started to roll from the 50s into the late 70s. The former method of becoming an architect was to learn it as a trade; that is you apprenticed under a practicing architect for many years until you were competent enough to hold your own. It was in many ways similar to how one became (and still becomes) a master mason, carpenter, etc.

The change from apprenticeship to the modern form of going to an accredited college to obtain a degree happened to coincide with the widespread adoption of theories pushed by Le Courbusier and his compatriots. These theories as to how to design were taught to almost the entire current practicing field of architects, and is still held with near biblical stature at nearly every college in the western world, despite the increasing amount of flaws in these design practices that we have been uncovering since their conception.

This is the reason I changed my major from architecture to historic preservation. While I still intend to build many new structures, it allowed me to study and understand the craft of those who built on centuries of accumulated knowledge, versus that of the Modernists who threw everything from Egypt onward out the window in favor of their unachievable utopian ideal of how society should live and be structured. I don't know if Data got a similar taste, or would like to elaborate.


So in short, you cant just blame the architects. For the most part, they don't know any better.
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

Dave, good post and congrats on having the courage and sense to switch your major.

I disagree on one point: We can absolutely blame the architects. Regardless of how an education in architecture happens, architects are theoretically not fully moronic. If you (not you, DaveM, but a hypothetical architect) don't see that what your field, and you yourself, are doing is pretty terrible (especially when you have plenty of contrasting examples all around you), your powers of perception are piss-poor.

One of the grandees of architecture, Robert AM Stern, seems fully aware of how much better-looking (and how much more desirable) pre-modern architecture is. Other architects must have an inkling as well, and they should absolutely be blamed as a profession for not acting on this. Otherwise, we end up blaming either a public forced to live in increasingly ugly surroundings whose opinion nobody ever asks, or a long-dead Swissman whose credibility should have plummeted to nil the moment he proposed to raze Paris and replace it with a housing project.
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

I essentially agree with everything that you said. There are indeed the professors that obsessed and even maybe got sexually aroused by Corbu's work, but the students who succeeded in the architecture curriculum were the ones that had enough intuition to realize that this modern movement was one of many in the history of architecture. We had 3 history courses throughout our 4-year degree. One was lumped into "Fundamentals of Architecture" where on tuesday you learn about design/drawing techniques and thursday you learn about history starting with the earth mounds thousands of years ago and such up through about Egypt. "Genius Loci" ("sense of place") gets introduced and becomes a fundamental theme throughout the rest of your time in schooling. History of Arch I then covers Greece, Rome, and the Medieval Ages in its entirety. Parallels are consistently drawn to "How do these principles apply to how we currently design?" I was extremely vocal about this (to the point of arguing with the professor one day) and actually got the course to shift from identifying every. single. fucking. Gothic. cathedral. to something that was actually useful and could inform our design sense in studio. History of Arch I has now been rewritten and that professor has retired. History of Arch II was just awesome. It starts during the Italian Ren. and goes through today, introducing Borromini (and his undulating wall), Bernini, FLW, Gropius, Corbu, Aalto, the Futurists (Bucky and friends), and then it gets weird when you learn about the people who live off the land and build with recycled materials (how Frank Gehry actually started, but soon defected and decided to make arbitrary sculptures). The course ends on its last day by discussing how terrible Po-Mo is.

In studio, professors come in a variety of ages and backgrounds. If they have their degree from Harvard, then they will definitely obsess and insist you design a building that Corbu, Gropius, or a Brutalist would approve of. Other, younger professors, have a better overall view of urbanism. Our last semester in studio is spent master planning. There are PLENTY of students and professors who are "green space" fetishists. It's a buzzword in architecture. They obsess over providing useless spaces instead of meaningful development. Luckily, me and a few other friends in my studio had enough voice in number to limit our master planning from becoming fancy towers in a park with minimal street retail.
 
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Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

davem, itchy, & datadyne007 great stuff. This is the main reason I joined this forum, so I could learn this kind of stuff and understand what I was seeing as i walked the streets of our cities and towns.
Thanks much and keep it up, please!
 
Re: Hong Luk Project - Chinatown

But Brad, do you think most of that "quality modernism" holds a shoe lace to the 1875 product that surrounds it?
And I'm not saying that it's the architects' fault - God knows load-bearing masonry has gone the way of the stage coach. But still, Joe makes a fair point.

It's comparing apples to oranges. Building is a very different and vastly more expensive animal than it was 100 years ago. In this case the project is non-profit. Pretty much doubt they ever considered marble columns and travertine arches. Nonetheless the street section responds well enough to it's neighbors. It has the good sense to know it can't wear the flashy Versace dress so it settles for Ann Taylor. The top section is JC Penny but again it's a non-profit.

I love the quality and detailing of century old buildings but something like them can only be realized today in a meaningful, cost-effective way on a very small, boutique scale. Post Modernism filled the vacuum of wanting something more decorative and what a god-awful horror show that has mostly been. Even if the same style and quality could be widely duplicated I wouldn't want it. Mimicry doesn't sit well with me at all. Architecture is such a plastic art. A street respecting, well functioning, sustainable building of quality materials can look like so many different things. No to neo-historicist straightjackets.
 

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