Logan Airport Capital Projects

[FenwayResident]

Do the current Blue Line to airport terminal shuttle buses encounter significant traffic congestion? Why not just buy some battery powered buses?

Yes. I've had it take 20 minutes to get from the blue line station to terminal E. When it's really crowded the bus becomes a giant clusterfuck of people with multiple huge bags getting on and off. It can easily take 5 minutes per terminal on busy days.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I suggest reading the article which discusses why buses are not desirable in this situation. Other than the cost (which as others have noted will come from aviation revenues which are restricted) I can't see how anyone could think this is a bad idea. Traffic in and around the airport is absolutely an issue that is only going to get worse in the coming years.

I suggest finding ways to get information that the public needs to know about distributed in non-paywalled publications.

If we want to have a dedicated ROW for the Blue Line to airport terminal connector, I'm wondering if we'd be better off with a busway that could be shared between the buses that stay on the busway plus SL1, Logan Express, etc, instead of building something that will exclude SL1 and Logan Express riders.

 

[FenwayResident]

I suggest finding ways to get information that the public needs to know about distributed in non-paywalled publications.

If we want to have a dedicated ROW for the Blue Line to airport terminal connector, I'm wondering if we'd be better off with a busway that could be shared between the buses that stay on the busway plus SL1, Logan Express, etc, instead of building something that will exclude SL1 and Logan Express riders.

Why not do what LAX is doing and have a consolidated transit hub that is connected to people mover? All the silver line buses could terminate at the Blue Line station instead of doing the loop at Logan. Then people could take the people mover to their terminal (which would probably be quicker for anyone going to Terminals C or E). That would also have the added benefit of freeing up the loop to cars that are picking up and dropping off.

 

[bigpicture7]

Why not do what LAX is doing and have a consolidated transit hub that is connected to people mover? All the silver line buses could terminate at the Blue Line station instead of doing the loop at Logan. Then people could take the people mover to their terminal (which would probably be quicker for anyone going to Terminals C or E). That would also have the added benefit of freeing up the loop to cars that are picking up and dropping off.

This is an excellent idea - if the people mover is efficient enough, then no need for the airport SL loop. Let the SL1, SL3, and Blue Line all go to the same hub (present-day blue line station), and let everyone disperse to their terminals from there. Would that not allow for increased frequency of SL service elsewhere? You'd think the MBTA would like that as a way to boost service frequencies in the seaport.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Why not do what LAX is doing and have a consolidated transit hub that is connected to people mover? All the silver line buses could terminate at the Blue Line station instead of doing the loop at Logan. Then people could take the people mover to their terminal (which would probably be quicker for anyone going to Terminals C or E). That would also have the added benefit of freeing up the loop to cars that are picking up and dropping off.

People hate transferring, especially when they have luggage. If a Lyft vehicle can pick you up at your terminal and SL1 requires a people mover transfer, that becomes an incentive to passengers to take Lyft and increase the number of vehicles on the road.

 

[FenwayResident]

People hate transferring, especially when they have luggage. If a Lyft vehicle can pick you up at your terminal and SL1 requires a people mover transfer, that becomes an incentive to passengers to take Lyft and increase the number of vehicles on the road.

Is a transfer enough of a disincentive to overcome a $20+ price difference? For most people I doubt it - someone who would pay an extra $20 to avoid a transfer would probably be taking a cab anyway.

For reference, here's LAX's proposal to fix the incredible traffic problem at their loop. LAX is actually a fairly similar design to Logan - radial with inner loop, offsite metro, offsite rental car facilities.

 

[bigpicture7]

People hate transferring...

People don't only hate one thing. They also hate excessive wait times, excessive aggregate times, crowds/discomfort on the vehicle, and paying a lot of money. This is a multi-factor optimization exercise.

If the central hub enables overall speedy service, people will like it. The present SL loop is a slow, crowded slog at many times during the day...and it involves musical chairs as people shove their big luggage on/off the bus and move from seats to the luggage rack.

Many of the fast automated people movers at airports don't have seats, so the luggage rack jockeying doesn't happen. Entering/exiting ATL's seatless people mover is dramatically quicker than boarding/departing an SL bus.

If the SL1 bus terminated at one hub, then everyone would be getting off with their luggage at the same time...

 

[bakgwailo]

I don't mind the idea - as for the price tag, if its self funded (isn't MassPort loaded?), then who cares. It would make getting to and from Logan much easier. It would be really nice if they could keep the inter-terminal portions behind security to help transfers, too.

 

[jass]

Actually, we can't - the money would be aviation revenue and is Federally-mandated to be spent on aviation uses.

Money isnt free.

Tacking on additional fees to pay for this garbage makes flying from Logan more expensive and less attractive.

Look at Heathrow. Some folks route their flights Heathrow-EU-Heathrow-USA just to avoid some of their ridiculous fees.

Why not do what LAX is doing and have a consolidated transit hub that is connected to people mover? All the silver line buses could terminate at the Blue Line station instead of doing the loop at Logan. Then people could take the people mover to their terminal (which would probably be quicker for anyone going to Terminals C or E). That would also have the added benefit of freeing up the loop to cars that are picking up and dropping off.

So make driving easier and transit less attractive. Brilliant idea.

Why not ban all cars from the loop and force people to drop off at South Station where they can transfer to the SL.

Same concept, but Im sure youll argue that it's idiotic because reasons.

 

[bakgwailo]

If anything the central hub and people mover to my terminal makes it more attractive, not less. When I fly out of JFK I don't think twice about the transfer to their 'airtrain' - its nice and it works (although I grumble at the ticket price as it doesn't tie into the MTA fare system). If anything putting mass transit into its own dedicated ROW and out of the congested streets is a good thing. Also - moving everything to South Station is pointless and not the same thing at all. If anything this makes the Blue Line way, way more attractive, and the Blue is doesn't deal with tunnel or seaport traffic, or signal priority at D Street.

 

[Equilibria]

Money isnt free.

Tacking on additional fees to pay for this garbage makes flying from Logan more expensive and less attractive.

Yeah, I'm sure the people who fly through the airports in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Dallas, Phoenix, Tampa, Orlando, Miami, Chicago, Detroit, New York (JFK and Newark), Toronto, and probably several others I haven't thought of would all agree that their APMs are "idiotic garbage". FWIW, Heathrow doesn't have an APM system (of this type), but Paris and Frankfurt both do...

 

[Arlington]

At what height will this thing run? High above the departures roadway? Someplace aerial (roughly on level with Departures?) but "tighter in" toward the garages? Or ground level but as an "inner loop". Or TBM?

But the time has clearly come for this--and for a separate admission fee (a la DFW) for vehicles to enter the terminal area at all. We've got basically the same roadway as 1998 (or earlier) that's already sustained huge growth and has to be priced & allocated much smarter if it is to sustain another 2x of growth.

 

[curcuas]

This is an excellent idea - can't count the number of times I've been stuck in traffic on the shuttle bus, encouraging me to take lyft/uber/cab

 

[jass]

Yeah, I'm sure the people who fly through the airports in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Dallas, Phoenix, Tampa, Orlando, Miami, Chicago, Detroit, New York (JFK and Newark), Toronto, and probably several others I haven't thought of would all agree that their APMs are "idiotic garbage". FWIW, Heathrow doesn't have an APM system (of this type), but Paris and Frankfurt both do...

Congrats, you clearly cant identify the difference between a APM that moves people inside the airport (like Dallas) and outside the airport. Oh, and Heathrow has PRT.

This one does nothing to help transfers between terminals, which is fine, because thats not an issue at Boston. The 12 people who transfer from E to A can use the moving walkways through the garage.

It's $1bn to get buses out of the way of cars. Period.


...oh, and according to federal regulations, if airport fees are used to build it, it cannot go to off-site uses. Idiotic rule.

AKA: Any connection to the blue line would be a paid trip. Newark charges $5.50 to get to the train station on their baby monorail. JFK is somewhat similar.

 

[ceo]

OK, this is a Crazy Transit Pitch if ever there was one, but: here is an ideal application for an urban gondola. Build it as a loop: instead of going out and back like nearly all such installations, it has one-sided stations at Airport Station, Terminal E, Terminal C, between A and B, and the rental car lot, then back to Airport.
One issue is you have to build the stations fairly high up, with support structures squeezed in between the various elevated roadways; A/B is particularly constrained. Another is that the alignment goes over the tarmac between Airport Station and E; I don't know if TSA will have a problem with that. And, I don't actually know what the capacity requirement here is and if a gondola can meet it.
Here's a quick map of the route.

 

[mass88]

Since they have opened the CONRAC (this was a very smart move by Massport) the number of shuttles buses has dropped and traffic moves a little bit smoother.

 

[Smartiro]

It's $1bn to get buses out of the way of cars. Period.

I don't see it that way. Currently, during peak times SL1 gets stuck behind all the cars trying to get to the terminals. It can take 30 mins to traverse terminals on SL1 during peak times. I got seriously stuck on it more than once and promised myself to only take it when traffic is light.
When you are going to terminal C or E cab takes you there directly, SL1 might take another 15-20 mins getting through clogged A and B roadways.
The other issue is luggage - pretty much everyone has wheels on luggage now and it's really easy to walk into a train/APM. And you don't need a rack for that luggage as ride is smooth and fast and seats are not needed.
I just came back from SFO - their APM (AirTrain) is great. Free, frequent, clean and gets you to rental car facility.
You simply can't compare the convenience and ease of use of APM with a zoo of buses travelers at Logan must deal with currently.

 

[FenwayResident]

I don't see it that way. Currently, during peak times SL1 gets stuck behind all the cars trying to get to the terminals. It can take 30 mins to traverse terminals on SL1 during peak times. I got seriously stuck on it more than once and promised myself to only take it when traffic is light.
When you are going to terminal C or E cab takes you there directly, SL1 might take another 15-20 mins getting through clogged A and B roadways.
The other issue is luggage - pretty much everyone has wheels on luggage now and it's really easy to walk into a train/APM. And you don't need a rack for that luggage as ride is smooth and fast and seats are not needed.
I just came back from SFO - their APM (AirTrain) is great. Free, frequent, clean and gets you to rental car facility.
You simply can't compare the convenience and ease of use of APM with a zoo of buses travelers at Logan must deal with currently.

Yeah, anyone who is saying that an APM would be less convenient than the Silver Line (or #55 shuttle) clearly has never had to take the bus at peak times. It's an absolute nightmare - slow, clogged, and bags rolling around everywhere. Not to mention the ride is terrible with lots of quick starts and hard brakes due to the traffic (all while trying to control a heavy bag on wheels).

I guarantee that the APM would be a much more pleasant experience than the current situation except during the quietest hours of the day. It would almost certainly be quicker for all the terminals except A (and maybe B) too.

 

[Arlington]

I would first like to see Logan address "getting stuck behind cars" (at curbs) by imposing a vehicle-entry fee at the airport. This could shift a lot of personal vehicle trips from "Ill pick you up at the airport" to "I'll pick you up at the T"

Then I'd like to see a BRT Gold Line from NS/Haymarket to the terminals.

*then* do the APM.

 

[jass]

I don't see it that way. Currently, during peak times SL1 gets stuck behind all the cars trying to get to the terminals. It can take 30 mins to traverse terminals on SL1 during peak times. I got seriously stuck on it more than once and promised myself to only take it when traffic is light.
When you are going to terminal C or E cab takes you there directly, SL1 might take another 15-20 mins getting through clogged A and B roadways.

OK, so there is a problem. That doesnt mean the solution is spending $1bn on a train. I think we can come up with better ways to speed the Silver Line up.

The other issue is luggage - pretty much everyone has wheels on luggage now and it's really easy to walk into a train/APM. And you don't need a rack for that luggage as ride is smooth and fast and seats are not needed.

It doesnt take $1bn to reconfigure a bus.

This is what an average bus - not airport - in Paris looks like.

I guarantee that the APM would be a much more pleasant experience than the current situation except during the quietest hours of the day. It would almost certainly be quicker for all the terminals except A (and maybe B) too.

Free massages at the gates would be a much more pleasant experience than the current situation. Should we spend $1bn on that?