Logan Airport Flights and Airlines Discussion

mass88

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Wow, this is a great add. Star Alliance really has a very strong position in the Boston market.

Next summer they will have:

Munich - daily A380 Lufthansa
Frankfurt - daily 333 Lufthansa
Frankfurt - daily 748 Lufthansa
Zurich - daily 333 Swiss International
Zurich - daily 343 Swiss International
Lisbon - daily 332 TAP Air Portugal
Copenhagen - 4 weekly 333 SAS
Istanbul - daily 333 Turkish Airlines
Vienna - 6 weekly 763 Austrian Airlines
 

tysmith95

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Lol I keep finding myself saying it always comes back to the rail network. I totally agree that the market for shuttle flights between NEC destinations is burgeoned by the expense and reliability (or lack-thereof) of Acela.
Amtrak has taken a majority of the NYC to DC market, but the CT section is slow enough that airline shuttle flights are faster for most BOS trips.
 

whighlander

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Two recent articles on Boston overtaking DC and Miami for transatlantic traffic. https://thepointsguy.com/news/europ...4744363C&utm_medium=social&utm_term=editorial

and

Even more -- from tracking the links in the 1st article highlighted by BosDevelop
Can Delta and JetBlue Make Boston the Next Dual-Hub City?
Edward Russell
Aug 2, 2019
This post contains references to products from one or more of our advertisers. We may receive compensation when you click on links to those products. Terms apply to the offers listed on this page. For an explanation of our Advertising Policy, visit this page.
Delta Air Lines and JetBlue Airways are committed to Boston Logan. Both airlines consider it an important base on their maps and continue to grow there, competing fiercely for local travelers.
Delta upgraded Boston (BOS) to a “coastal hub,” meaning it caters to local travelers and offers some connections, in June. The next month, JetBlue doubled down with executives saying they were “committed to winning” Boston, in a not-so-veiled reference to its competitor.
Related: Delta Says Boston Is Now One of Its Hub Cities
As each carrier publicly tries to one-up the other, both may be right. Boston, like Seattle (SEA) across the country, may have room for two big airlines.
JetBlue management, in a meeting with analysts from Raymond James on Aug. 1, acknowledged that Boston could be a two-hub town.
Executives of the New York-based carrier “conceded that [Boston] could support both [JetBlue’s] and Delta’s very different customer targets with many other airlines contracting supply,” Raymond James analyst Savanthi Syth said in a report on Friday.
JetBlue aircraft at Boston Logan. (Photo by JOSEPH PREZIOSO/AFP/Getty Images)


JetBlue aircraft at Boston Logan. (Photo by JOSEPH PREZIOSO/AFP/Getty Images)
JetBlue’s aim is to be the airline with the most domestic nonstops for Boston-area based travellers, while Delta’s aim is more of a global nature.
“We are focused on local customers where we see a very clear first choice preference for JetBlue,” said Joanna Geraghty, president of JetBlue, during a results presentation in July. “We’ve got the best people, the best products and a point-to-point model that is just perfect for the Boston geography.”
A month earlier, Delta managing director of domestic network planning Amy Martin told attendees at an Airports Council International-North America conference that the SkyTeam Alliance member was “really focused on reinforcing our position as the number one global carrier in Boston.”
Boston Growth
Delta and JetBlue are both focused on growing in Boston. Delta will increase seats roughly 15.5% year-over-year as it adds a slew of new routes from Logan, including Chicago O’Hare (ORD), Lisbon (LIS) and Washington Reagan National (DCA), this year, according to Diio by Cirium schedule data.
Delta and Southwest aircraft parked at terminal A at Boston Logan. (Photo by John Tlumacki/The Boston Globe via Getty Images)


Delta and Southwest aircraft parked at terminal A at Boston Logan. (Photo by John Tlumacki/The Boston Globe via Getty Images)
JetBlue is set to increase seats by roughly 7.3% year-over-year in 2019, the data shows. The airline is adding flights on a number of existing routes, for example to Washington National, and opening new markets, including Palm Springs (PSP) and Rochester (ROC) in New York.
Related: How to Redeem Points With the JetBlue TrueBlue Program
The next three largest carriers in Boston – American Airlines, United Airlines and Southwest Airlines – are all schedule to reduce seats this year, according to Diio. Seats will decrease by 5.6% year-over-year on both American and United, and by 12.7% on Southwest.
Logan Airport is working with both airlines to facilitate their growth. Delta will take over all 21 gates in Terminal A when Southwest moves to Terminal B later this year. A number of underway construction projects will net JetBlue six more gates in Terminal C for a total of 30 by 2021.
Edward Russell@e_russell
https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/988928600844980224

JetBlue's @martysg says they have a plan to grow their gates in Boston to 30 by 2021. Trying to find details of that plan and found this...
View image on Twitter
https://twitter.com/intent/like?tweet_id=988928600844980224
Seattle’s Lead
Delta and JetBlue do not have to look far to see an example of a successful dual-hub airport. The former has been duking it out with Alaska Airlines at Seattle-Tacoma since 2014, a move that most analysts see as an example of a successful dual hub.
The mainline carrier began setting up a Pacific gateway at Sea-Tac in 2012 as part of an effort to reduce its reliance on Tokyo Narita (NRT) for flights into Asia. The gateway became a full fledged hub two years later.
Related: Delta to Leave Tokyo Narita for Haneda
Seattle’s transition to a two-hub town has worked. Alaska has largely maintained its share of local passengers, while Delta’s expansion has come mostly at the expense of other airlines.
Alaska’s market share in Seattle slipped by just over one point to 49% from 2012 to 2018, US Department of Transportation data via Diio shows. At the same time, Delta’s share more than doubled to 23% from 11%.
United Airlines took the biggest hit from Delta’s growth in Seattle. The Star Alliance carrier’s share slipped nearly four points to 6.5% in 2018 from more than 10% in 2012, according to the data. American Airlines and Southwest Airlines both saw their shares fall by nearly two points to 5.6% and 6.5%, respectively.
Alaska and Delta in Seattle is comparable in many ways to JetBlue and Delta in Boston. Both Alaska and JetBlue are similarly-sized carriers with networks limited to North America and near South America, at least until the latter lands in London in 2021. They tout strong local affinity to their brands in the markets but admit that they do not provide the global network some travelers need.
Related: JetBlue to Fly Between Boston/NYC and London
Delta, on the other hand, is a global carrier with a comprehensive domestic network. It cannot tout hometown status outside of Atlanta but has a strong brand and has brought in-demand international connections to both Boston and Seattle.
Boston and Seattle also share similarities. Both are mid-size airports that handled 40.9 million and 49.8 million passengers, respectively, in 2018, airport data shows. The metro areas are economically vibrant with strong and growing technology sectors.

Edward RussellIs a Senior Airline Business Reporter at The Points Guy. Edward joined the TPG team in June 2019 after seven years at FlightGlobal.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/away-limited-edition-luminous-colors/?navtid=More-1
Editorial Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are the author’s alone, not those of any bank, credit card issuer, airlines or hotel chain, and have not been reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by any of these entities.
 

Bos77

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Wow, this is a great add. Star Alliance really has a very strong position in the Boston market.

Next summer they will have:

Munich - daily A380 Lufthansa
Frankfurt - daily 333 Lufthansa
Frankfurt - daily 748 Lufthansa
Zurich - daily 333 Swiss International
Zurich - daily 343 Swiss International
Lisbon - daily 332 TAP Air Portugal
Copenhagen - 4 weekly 333 SAS
Istanbul - daily 333 Turkish Airlines
Vienna - 6 weekly 763 Austrian Airlines
Plus Air Canada, Copa, and United's largest non-hub market. :)
 

adamh8297

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Wow, this is a great add. Star Alliance really has a very strong position in the Boston market.

Next summer they will have:

Munich - daily A380 Lufthansa
Frankfurt - daily 333 Lufthansa
Frankfurt - daily 748 Lufthansa
Zurich - daily 333 Swiss International
Zurich - daily 343 Swiss International
Lisbon - daily 332 TAP Air Portugal
Copenhagen - 4 weekly 333 SAS
Istanbul - daily 333 Turkish Airlines
Vienna - 6 weekly 763 Austrian Airlines
Copenhagen is daily for summer but there is news on this route.

SAS will be switching the route to A321neoLR in 09/2020 and run it 6 weekly year-round.

 

Lrfox

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Copenhagen is daily for summer but there is news on this route.

SAS will be switching the route to A321neoLR in 09/2020 and run it 6 weekly year-round.

That makes a lot of sense for the route. And of course, you could see a seasonal upgauge if there is demand. I'm glad to see that they're committed to BOS. CPH is one of my favorite cities, even (especially) in the winter, so I'll probably take advantage of the year round service.
 

BosDevelop

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TAP Air Portugal just announced nonstop service to Ponta Delgada (PDL) from Logan which is of course already served by Azores Airlines. Not sure about the flight times/frequency yet or when the service starts.
 

adamh8297

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JAL announced the Haneda Expansion but Boston was not included.

Leaves the door open for ANA to jump in. Star Alliance, especially with the United FFers, still needs a link to East Asia in Boston.
 

HelloBostonHi

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Delta likes to talk the talk on Logan being a hub but I couldn't help but notice that even American carries more passengers through Logan still which surprised me... (Source: USDOT)

AirlinePassengersShare
JetBlue10,714,00032.21%
American6,288,00018.91%
Delta5,003,00015.04%
United3,819,00011.48%
Southwest2,629,0007.91%
Other4,805,00014.45%
 

Arlington

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I am flying to LGW on Norwegian and booked their Premium (business class) for $1700rt (and, while nonrefundable, changeable at no fee) -- 40% less than coach on the majors. How is such a value gap possible? Is that how powerful FF loyalty is, or some kind of distribution difference?
 

jass

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I am flying to LGW on Norwegian and booked their Premium (business class) for $1700rt (and, while nonrefundable, changeable at no fee) -- 40% less than coach on the majors. How is such a value gap possible? Is that how powerful FF loyalty is, or some kind of distribution difference?
Loyalty, and also people who are scared to try new things.

They also cut a lot of costs with their labor. IE, you might get a 100% Thai crew on your flight from Boston to the UK, which gets paid a whole lot less than a plane full of brits with 30 years seniority.

Ive flown Norwegian twice. Both times great flights. They do charge for most things, including drinks, but I think you get that included in premium class.
 

Arlington

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Loyalty, and also people who are scared to try new things.

They also cut a lot of costs with their labor. IE, you might get a 100% Thai crew on your flight from Boston to the UK, which gets paid a whole lot less than a plane full of brits with 30 years seniority.

Ive flown Norwegian twice. Both times great flights. They do charge for most things, including drinks, but I think you get that included in premium class.
This is a business trip, and while policy would be to not pay for business class, I easily made the case that for $1700 it was clearly the best value-for-money (productivity upon LON arrival)

But Microecon insists that the Majors should find a way to match the lower price *somehow* Maybe I was just buying on the "wrong" (for the Majors) end of the booking curve--at a "last minute" time when they judge that their loyalty-driven customers aren't going to shop around.

For me, with about 30k of travel for 2019 (but having split it equally between JetBlue and Delta) I'm an active flyer but nobody's elite. Meanwhile my DL super-elite boss is a DTW captive and is #3 on standby for an upgrade from Y to J.

If JetBlue had been in the market, I'd have flown them. If IcelandAir had offered JetBlue elite status for flying, I'd have flown them. Being not-loyal-enough, I'm looking forward to J on Norwegian, and will fly them for about the same reason that I fly EvenMoreSpace on JetBlue.
 

JeffDowntown

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My impression is that the majors are not really trying to capture the pure BOS => LON market. They are really marketing their network, so they want you when you go BOS => LHR => XXX (Or BOS => FRA => XXX), etc. And they have a lot of frequent fliers who will fill the seats for BOS => LON almost regardless the price.
 

jass

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But Microecon insists that the Majors should find a way to match the lower price *somehow* Maybe I was just buying on the "wrong" (for the Majors) end of the booking curve--at a "last minute" time when they judge that their loyalty-driven customers aren't going to shop around.
They have been. You can find ample AA/Iberia availability between NYC and Spain for ~$250 economy round-trip.

Just 5 years ago, $~500 would have been considered an exceptional deal.
 

Lrfox

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I am flying to LGW on Norwegian and booked their Premium (business class) for $1700rt (and, while nonrefundable, changeable at no fee) -- 40% less than coach on the majors. How is such a value gap possible? Is that how powerful FF loyalty is, or some kind of distribution difference?
I think the problem with this line of thinking is that it's not an apples to apples comparison . Norwegian's Premium is a premium economy product. Delta, British Airways, and Virgin are all currently flying very similar premium economy products between Boston and London. American likely will too when they start up next year. They're generally similarly priced to Norwegian's and often less. You can't really compare any of them to today's modern transatlantic business class which has lie flat seats and a much higher level of service. I agree that business class between Boston and London is often more expensive than it needs to be, but there's a reason premium economy seats are a good deal less expensive.

That said, I like Norwegian's Premium product and have flown it a handful of times myself. I don't think the lie-flat is necessary for the BOS-London trip as it's so short. By the time you complete the dinner service and they dim the cabin lights, you're only going to get 2 hours or so to sleep (assuming you can fall asleep right way) before they turn them back on and start the breakfast service. Frankly, I think the $1,700 is still a little high. Last time i flew Premium, I paid about $900 r/t. For me personally, it was worth the additional cost over a BA economy ticket which, at the time, was about $600. I'm doing BOS-LHR in January for $375. No way I would pay even the $900 for Norwegian Premium instead. It's not nearly a big enough improvement over the standard Major airline economy product to justify the cost.

Other reasons, apart from what's already been stated, FFs would choose their normal carrier over Norwegian include:
  • Airline stability - Norwegian is frequently in the headlines for their financial hardship. It would suck to have the airline go belly-up in the middle of a trip a la Thomas Cooke, Wow, Primera, etc.
  • Infrequent service - Norwegian's limited route network and infrequent service means fewer backup plans in case of an equipment problem/delay. If something is wrong with your flight, you could be stuck 24 hours or more. With a Major carrier like Delta, you have a litany of routing options (i.e. LHR-JFK-BOS, LHR-ATL-BOS, LHR-BOS on Virgin, etc) between Delta and Virgin if there's an issue with the direct flight.
  • Equipment change - Norwegian is notorious for swapping out planes for charter aircraft due to its small fleet size and maintenance needs. This often leads to ending up on an inferior product.
  • Consistent service - Norwegian is also notorious for not hiring the best or most experienced crews. Each flight can be different.
  • Mileage and status contributions (self explanatory)
  • Upgrade potential
  • Better lounge access (with all due respect, the No. 1 Lounge that comes with a Norwegian Premium ticket is often overcrowded and underwhelming).
 
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kmp1284

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I am flying to LGW on Norwegian and booked their Premium (business class) for $1700rt (and, while nonrefundable, changeable at no fee) -- 40% less than coach on the majors. How is such a value gap possible? Is that how powerful FF loyalty is, or some kind of distribution difference?
I haven’t flown them but it’s a bit of a stretch to call this business class. It looks like more of a premium economy experience with what passed for a business class seat twenty-five years ago. I don’t think Norwegian even attempts to spin it as such

Having said that and provided you don’t experience the operational issues Lrfox outlined it still beats economy.
 

Arlington

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I haven’t flown them but it’s a bit of a stretch to call this business class. It looks like more of a premium economy experience with what passed for a business class seat twenty-five years ago. I don’t think Norwegian even attempts to spin it as such
True. It is essentially Premium Economy or Business Class 1993 (or LH Business Class 1998)

Also, what would Norwegian substitute for a 787? Two 737s with a technical stop in the middle?

But as of right now for Sunday-Friday travel next week on VS/DL prices are "Main Cabin" ~$2700, Delight/Comfort, ~$2900~$3000, and Premium $3600 ~ $4000,

vs Norwegian's $1000 Economy and $1600 Premium
 
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Lrfox

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True. It is essentially Premium Economy or Business Class 1993 (or LH Business Class 1998)

Also, what would Norwegian substitute for a 787? Two 737s with a technical stop in the middle?

But as of right now for Sunday-Friday travel next week on VS/DL prices are "Main Cabin" ~$2700, Delight/Comfort, ~$2900~$3000, and Premium $3600 ~ $4000,

vs Norwegian's $1000 Economy and $1600 Premium
Norwegian’s 737s (800 and Max) can do BOS-LGW direct w/o a stop. But what they actually do when they need to sub is sub in leased aircraft like a330s, 777s, and even an a380 (in some instances out of JFK). The a330s and 777s in particular are high density charter layouts so you lose your premium economy seat and they’re not often inclined refund passengers the difference.

Based on the scenario you have for next week, I’d definitely go with Norwegian Premium given the price difference. It’s just important to remember you’re getting an entirely economy experience with a more comfortable seat.
 

atlantaden

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