Logan Airport Flights and Airlines Discussion

[Java King]

Delta NS23 Domestic Network Additions – 24DEC22 — AeroRoutes

Published at 1900GMT 26DEC22 Delta during the weekend of 24DEC22’s schedule update opened reservation on various domestic routes. In particular, the airline will expand Boston network from May 2023, followed by Washington Reagan from October 2023. Boston – Memphis eff 08MAY23 1 daily Embraer

www.aeroroutes.com

Some further details on the Delta adds/resumptions.

Boston – Memphis eff 08MAY23 1 daily Embraer E175 (Republic Airways; Last served until January 2014)
Boston – Myrtle Beach 27MAY23 – 03SEP23 2 weekly A220-100 (Last served until September 2021 by Republic Airways)
Boston – Traverse City 27MAY23 – 03SEP23 2 weekly Embraer E175 (Republic Airways; Last served until September 2021)
Boston – Wilmington NC 27MAY23 – 03SEP23 2 weekly Embraer E175 (Republic Airways)

Also, service to Denver is increasing from daily to 11x weekly. On Las Vegas, a planned second daily has been scrapped and the route will remain at once daily service.

I'm kind of surprised by this expanded service with still almost no service to the Great Plains. Being from Nebraska, my only non-stop option is to fly into Kansas City and drive 5-6 hours to central Nebraska. The last time I flew back home, there was only 1 flight per day to Kansas City. There are NO direct flights to Lincoln or Omaha. The only other option to fly non-stop into the Great Plains area is fly to Denver, and then drive again 5-6 hours to central Nebraska. I know I'm being a little self-serving, but I just can't believe there are SO FEW flights from this area. My brother and family live in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and they are planning to drive the 4-5 hours up to Kansas City for the direct flight to visit me next summer. If you look at the thousands of square miles this geography covers, I only know the following direct flights from/to Boston: Kansas City, Dallas, Denver. No direct flights from/to: Kansas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota. So, basically there is a straight line from Dallas up to the Canadian Border that has NOTHING. I know this area is sparsely populated, but the connecting flights to Omaha always seem really full.

 

[JeffDowntown]

I'm kind of surprised by this expanded service with still almost no service to the Great Plains. Being from Nebraska, my only non-stop option is to fly into Kansas City and drive 5-6 hours to central Nebraska. The last time I flew back home, there was only 1 flight per day to Kansas City. There are NO direct flights to Lincoln or Omaha. The only other option to fly non-stop into the Great Plains area is fly to Denver, and then drive again 5-6 hours to central Nebraska. I know I'm being a little self-serving, but I just can't believe there are SO FEW flights from this area. My brother and family live in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and they are planning to drive the 4-5 hours up to Kansas City for the direct flight to visit me next summer. If you look at the thousands of square miles this geography covers, I only know the following direct flights from/to Boston: Kansas City, Dallas, Denver. No direct flights from/to: Kansas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota. So, basically there is a straight line from Dallas up to the Canadian Border that has NOTHING. I know this area is sparsely populated, but the connecting flights to Omaha always seem really full.

If there was sufficient demand for point-to-point nonstops, the airlines would pick up on that.

Connecting flights are full because they are aggregating demand from multiple origins.

 

[Java King]

If there was sufficient demand for point-to-point nonstops, the airlines would pick up on that.

Connecting flights are full because they are aggregating demand from multiple origins.

I totally get that, and it certainly makes sense. However, I'm just surprised places like Traverse City, Michigan (Metro Pop. 15,000) has more demand than Omaha (Metro Pop. 967,000) for a direct flight from Boston. However, I'm certainly no airline scholar.

 

[adamh8297]

I'm kind of surprised by this expanded service with still almost no service to the Great Plains. Being from Nebraska, my only non-stop option is to fly into Kansas City and drive 5-6 hours to central Nebraska. The last time I flew back home, there was only 1 flight per day to Kansas City. There are NO direct flights to Lincoln or Omaha. The only other option to fly non-stop into the Great Plains area is fly to Denver, and then drive again 5-6 hours to central Nebraska. I know I'm being a little self-serving, but I just can't believe there are SO FEW flights from this area. My brother and family live in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and they are planning to drive the 4-5 hours up to Kansas City for the direct flight to visit me next summer. If you look at the thousands of square miles this geography covers, I only know the following direct flights from/to Boston: Kansas City, Dallas, Denver. No direct flights from/to: Kansas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota. So, basically there is a straight line from Dallas up to the Canadian Border that has NOTHING. I know this area is sparsely populated, but the connecting flights to Omaha always seem really full.

If there was sufficient demand for point-to-point nonstops, the airlines would pick up on that.

Connecting flights are full because they are aggregating demand from multiple origins.

Omaha-Boston could happen BUT it may be too long of a route. It's about the same distance as Boston to South Florida but wind factors in off season.

81 people each way per day travelled the route in Q2 this year.

It's not that far fetched for Delta or American to try an E-175. United flies a much longer route Bozeman-Washington Dulles with it. However, the economics just may not be right due to distance mentioned above. If Omaha was 200-300 miles closer the route would be served already.

 

[737900er]

I totally get that, and it certainly makes sense. However, I'm just surprised places like Traverse City, Michigan (Metro Pop. 15,000) has more demand than Omaha (Metro Pop. 967,000) for a direct flight from Boston. However, I'm certainly no airline scholar.

TVC is a seasonal leisure destination like BZN or CUN. OMA isn't and BOS isn't either. American and Delta can only make LGA-OMA work once a day each and United doesn't even fly EWR-OMA. They're just more set up to funnel those passengers over MSP, DTW, MDW, ORD, etc. ICT has zero flights to NYC.

 

[Justbuildit]

Omaha-Boston could happen BUT it may be too long of a route. It's right the same distance as Boston to South Florida but wind factors in off season.

81 people each way per day travelled the route in Q2 this year.

It's not that far fetched for Delta or American to try an E-175. United flies a much longer route Bozeman-Washington Dulles with it. However, the economics just may not be right due to distance mentioned above. If Omaha was 200-300 miles closer the route would be served already.

There's a DC-Bozeman flight on an E175? Jesus, that's gotta be one uncomfortable haul. Seems like the perfect job for a Delta A220/C-series

 

[adamh8297]

Avianca to restart Boston-Bogota on late March. 5 weekly A320neo.

Schedule is very strange: sometimes a red eye, sometimes a morning flight, and sometimes an late afternoon flight depending on the day of the week.

4 days a week it connects well to Bogota-Belo Horizonte. I wonder if it's technically a through flight with different flight numbers.

Avianca plans new Boston-Bogota connection for 2023

Avianca plans to roll out a new route connecting Boston to its base in Bogota, Colombia starting by the end of March 2023.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[EdMc]

Hope that this is new information:

KCI Airport (MCI airport code)

Spacious single terminal to replace three 1972 terminals

“current expected completion date is early 2023”

[url]https://www.buildkci.com/future-kci[/url]

 

[sneijder]

81 people each way per day travelled the route in Q2 this year.

Where do you get this data by city pair? I'd be really curious what the most traveled BOS-xxx pairs currently exist with no direct flight.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Omaha-Boston could happen BUT it may be too long of a route. It's about the same distance as Boston to South Florida but wind factors in off season.

81 people each way per day travelled the route in Q2 this year.

It's not that far fetched for Delta or American to try an E-175. United flies a much longer route Bozeman-Washington Dulles with it. However, the economics just may not be right due to distance mentioned above. If Omaha was 200-300 miles closer the route would be served already.

81 people per day total is not enough to spin up a single nonstop. You are never going to convert all those people over to the nonstop service, because of airline loyalty and time of day travel needs.

 

[Arlington]

[at KC / MCI] Spacious single terminal to replace three 1972 terminals
“current expected completion date is early 2023”
[url]https://www.buildkci.com/future-kci[/url]

I had forgotten, Poor MCI was (along with DFW) designed at exactly the wrong time: after the jetway and before passenger metal detectors and bag X-rays (1970 introduced; 1973 Universal screening)— such that instead it was designed to minimize steps from curb to jetway. You think DFW is cramped? MCI was worse.

Also before deregulation and the (self reinforcing) connecting hub, and then failed as an Eastern Airlines alternative to TWAs St Louis.

(if we want to keep talking about this I will move us to the Airport Projects thread, not air service, since I doubt it will attract much more service than a few more Southwest flights)

 

[737900er]

Schedule is very strange: sometimes a red eye, sometimes a morning flight, and sometimes an late afternoon flight depending on the day of the week.

Wow, you're right. This schedule is wild.

Mon: 07:20 BOG - 14:45 BOS
Tue: 14:00 BOG - 21:25 BOS
Wed: 23:10 BOG - 06:35+1 BOS
Fri: 07:20 BOG - 14:45 BOS
Sat: 14:00 BOG - 21:25 BOS

Sun: 00:05 BOS - 05:10 BOG
Mon: 16:05 BOS - 21:20 BOG
Wed: 00:05 BOS - 05:10 BOG
Thu: 08:00 BOS - 13:05 BOG
Fri: 16:05 BOS - 21:20 BOG

 

[Java King]

I had forgotten, Poor MCI was (along with DFW) designed at exactly the wrong time: after the jetway and before passenger metal detectors and bag X-rays (1970 introduced; 1973 Universal screening)— such that instead it was designed to minimize steps from curb to jetway. You think DFW is cramped? MCI was worse.

Also before deregulation and the (self reinforcing) connecting hub, and then failed as an Eastern Airlines alternative to TWAs St Louis.

(if we want to keep talking about this I will move us to the Airport Projects thread, not air service, since I doubt it will attract much more service than a few more Southwest flights)

I won't derail this read except with one comment: As per my original post about direct service from Boston, I fly into MCI a LOT! LOL It's truly horrible with almost no food or amenity options; but last March, I did see the brand new terminal under construction. It looks nice. As you mention, EVERY gate at MCI has their own security. It was designed back in the 70's when you could park near your gate and just run into the terminal to catch your plane. It was probably a good idea at the time, but with HUGE unintended consequences after security became FAR more important. Because of this weird design, there are almost NO food/drink and other amenity options AFTER security. I think each gate area has been retro-fitted with restrooms, a minimum of one food option and one essential store per gate. My last flight had ONE Starbucks, ONE hamburger option, and ONE news stand store. It was like rats packed into a space that was 10 times smaller than it should have been. Anyway........if you are going to fly direct from Boston.........it's the ONLY game in town if you are traveling to Nebraska, Kansas, western Missouri, Iowa, or Oklahoma. As I mentioned, it serves a BIG territory.

 

[sneijder]

81 people per day total is not enough to spin up a single nonstop. You are never going to convert all those people over to the nonstop service, because of airline loyalty and time of day travel needs.

That is true, although you are also forgetting about induced demand - people who are not making the trip entirely will do it if convenient enough, and people who are making the existing connecting trip may fly more often.

 

[adamh8297]

Where do you get this data by city pair? I'd be really curious what the most traveled BOS-xxx pairs currently exist with no direct flight.

DOT Table 6 Most recent quarter is Q2 CY2022. It also gives you market leader, cheapest airlines, average fare and more for particular city-pairs. You divide the passenger counts by two to get the PDEW - Passenger departing each way statistic. Note that Boston includes Providence, Worcester, and Manchester NH airports.

You used to have to download the whole chart but now you can visualize and filter data. https://data.transportation.gov/Avi...e-Report-Table-6-Contiguous-State-C/yj5y-b2ir Below is a chart i made with the table showing the trend of Boston-Wilmington NC over the years for Q3 traffic.

Someone on airliners recently gave top 10 unserved from Greater Boston. Omaha is #3 https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468575&p=23524771&hilit=jplatts#p23524591

81 people per day total is not enough to spin up a single nonstop. You are never going to convert all those people over to the nonstop service, because of airline loyalty and time of day travel needs.

You are partially right. You are not going to get everyone of those passengers. Some may be loyal to an airline and want a specific time. Southwest is often the market leader on the route.

However, there is market stimulation (going to Boston - the other side will be business and visiting relatives only) and connections: Example AA OMA-BOS could feed JetBlue, Qatar, Iberia, British Airways, Cape Air, Cathay, Aer Lingus. Omaha Metro Area grew 10% between 2010-2020.

Lets look at 2019 numbers too. It may be more of what could have been if it were not for COVID.
Q1-59 (ouch - may not go daily in that quarter if ever launched)
Q2-99
Q3-104
Q4-86

Finally - it may just take an incentive to tip the scales: see San Antonio and Louisville.

It is not a slam dunk as with many of the top 10 unserved in the airliners link above.

 

[Equilibria]

I won't derail this read except with one comment: As per my original post about direct service from Boston, I fly into MCI a LOT! LOL It's truly horrible with almost no food or amenity options; but last March, I did see the brand new terminal under construction. It looks nice. As you mention, EVERY gate at MCI has their own security. It was designed back in the 70's when you could park near your gate and just run into the terminal to catch your plane. It was probably a good idea at the time, but with HUGE unintended consequences after security became FAR more important. Because of this weird design, there are almost NO food/drink and other amenity options AFTER security. I think each gate area has been retro-fitted with restrooms, a minimum of one food option and one essential store per gate. My last flight had ONE Starbucks, ONE hamburger option, and ONE news stand store. It was like rats packed into a space that was 10 times smaller than it should have been. Anyway........if you are going to fly direct from Boston.........it's the ONLY game in town if you are traveling to Nebraska, Kansas, western Missouri, Iowa, or Oklahoma. As I mentioned, it serves a BIG territory.

Whole new terminal coming in 2023, thankfully.

 

[Java King]

DOT Table 6 Most recent quarter is Q2 CY2022. It also gives you market leader, cheapest airlines, average fare and more for particular city-pairs. You divide the passenger counts by two to get the PDEW - Passenger departing each way statistic. Note that Boston includes Providence, Worcester, and Manchester NH airports.

You used to have to download the whole chart but now you can visualize and filter data. https://data.transportation.gov/Avi...e-Report-Table-6-Contiguous-State-C/yj5y-b2ir Below is a chart i made with the table showing the trend of Boston-Wilmington NC over the years for Q3 traffic.

View attachment 32295

Someone on airliners recently gave top 10 unserved from Greater Boston. Omaha is #3 https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468575&p=23524771&hilit=jplatts#p23524591





You are partially right. You are not going to get everyone of those passengers. Some may be loyal to an airline and want a specific time. Southwest is often the market leader on the route.

However, there is market stimulation (going to Boston - the other side will be business and visiting relatives only) and connections: Example AA OMA-BOS could feed JetBlue, Qatar, Iberia, British Airways, Cape Air, Cathay, Aer Lingus. Omaha Metro Area grew 10% between 2010-2020.

Lets look at 2019 numbers too. It may be more of what could have been if it were not for COVID.
Q1-59 (ouch - may not go daily in that quarter if ever launched)
Q2-99
Q3-104
Q4-86

Finally - it may just take an incentive to tip the scales: see San Antonio and Louisville.

It is not a slam dunk as with many of the top 10 unserved in the airliners link above.

I don't think you can look purely at these passenger numbers. For instance, it would NOT capture me flying to Kansas City dozens of times to then drive up to Nebraska because there is no direct flight from Boston. I would think you would need to aggregate demand from Kansas, western Missouri, western Iowa, southern South Dakata, etc. to fully understand a possible demand of Omaha. You can draw a circle with a 300-mile radius from Omaha and ONLY hit Kansas City as a direct flight option from Boston.

 

[tysmith95]

I don't think you can look purely at these passenger numbers. For instance, it would NOT capture me flying to Kansas City dozens of times to then drive up to Nebraska because there is no direct flight from Boston. I would think you would need to aggregate demand from Kansas, western Missouri, western Iowa, southern South Dakata, etc. to fully understand a possible demand of Omaha. You can draw a circle with a 300-mile radius from Omaha and ONLY hit Kansas City as a direct flight option from Boston.

Also, DL could route some European connecting traffic through BOS to help fill seats from Omaha.

 

[mass88]

Southwest is the largest carrier in Omaha, with American second, and Delta third. From what I can see, Delta serves Detroit twice a day, SLC 3 times a day, LGA once a day, Minneapolis 4 times a day and Atlanta 5 times a day. Only Atlanta is service with mainline aircraft.

NYC, which I am sure is a much larger local market, has only a single daily ERJ flight from Delta. United doesn't serve Newark from Omaha. I doubt Boston will get service. If Delta wants to feed European flights with traffic from Omaha(which is does via Atlanta and to a lesser extent Detroit and Minneapolis/St.Paul), then they would add service to JFK and tap into a larger European network.

 

[adamh8297]

Wow, you're right. This schedule is wild.

Mon: 07:20 BOG - 14:45 BOS
Tue: 14:00 BOG - 21:25 BOS
Wed: 23:10 BOG - 06:35+1 BOS
Fri: 07:20 BOG - 14:45 BOS
Sat: 14:00 BOG - 21:25 BOS

Sun: 00:05 BOS - 05:10 BOG
Mon: 16:05 BOS - 21:20 BOG
Wed: 00:05 BOS - 05:10 BOG
Thu: 08:00 BOS - 13:05 BOG
Fri: 16:05 BOS - 21:20 BOG

Boston.com article on Avianca mentions plans to return to Boston-San Salvador. This will be announced soon.

Avianca will resume direct flights between Boston and this South American city in 2023

Avianca will resume flights between Boston and Bogota in 2023. Read more on Boston.com.

www.boston.com