Logan Airport Flights and Airlines Discussion

[czsz]

You'd think given the Brazilian population around here there'd be a lot of demand for direct to Sao Paulo.

 

[jass]

You'd think given the Brazilian population around here there'd be a lot of demand for direct to Sao Paulo.

Until two years ago, the only direct flights between Brazil and North America were:

Tam to Sao Paulo from NYC and Miami
American from NYC, Miami, Dallas and LA to Sao Paulo (2nd miami flight to rio)
Continental from Houston to Sao Paulo
I think United had a flight.

In the past two years about 10 new flights have sprung up, mostly to northern brazil (salvador, Fortaleza, natal, manaus)

I didnt understand why there were so few, almost all flights were full.

Maybe american carriers just dont like having to allow 2 bags of 70lbs free?

 

[Oakley]

Boston to Asia is a perfect example of the big benefits of the 787. Boston is not slot controlled also. Boston will see non-stop service to Asia by 2013. My money is on Korean Air to Seoul, or ANA to Tokyo. (Both have ordered the 787).

I know Korean Air has said they wanted to serve Boston once they get the 787 (whenever that will be). Seoul would be a great place to connection to other destinations throughout Asia.

Didn't an airline from China plan on starting service to Beijing (?)

Also, I wonder if Emirates will launch a Boston-Dubai route at some point. An airline that is building itself a connecting airline from Asia (in Boston's case, India) and the rest of the Middle East.

 

[Oakley]

You'd think given the Brazilian population around here there'd be a lot of demand for direct to Sao Paulo.

Routes on the international, long-haul routes are really based on the yields. A route that is heavy on economy-paying passengers is nice, but it's how many paying-passengers are flying in business and first class. If you don't have that, don't expect an airline to invest in those routes.

Does Boston have a lot of business with Brazil?

 

[mass88]

You'd think given the Brazilian population around here there'd be a lot of demand for direct to Sao Paulo.

As mentioned, yields are very important to an airline and the viability of a route. Boston-Brazil is a large market but it is mainy VFR (visiting friends and relatives) traffic. That traffic generally does not command a high yield (fare). If TAM wanted to run some high density (no first class, just a small business class and mostly coach) configuration, then Boston-Sao Paulo would be viable.

I know Korean Air has said they wanted to serve Boston once they get the 787 (whenever that will be). Seoul would be a great place to connection to other destinations throughout Asia.

Didn't an airline from China plan on starting service to Beijing (?)

Also, I wonder if Emirates will launch a Boston-Dubai route at some point. An airline that is building itself a connecting airline from Asia (in Boston's case, India) and the rest of the Middle East.

Hainan had been mentioned to start no-stop service, but nothing ever panned out. Deval and co. hailed the service as a victory of one of their trade missions. Nice work there.

Seoul and Tokyo both would be the best options. Yes the located passenger markets are a decent size, but the real benefit lies in the fact that both airports are hubs for 2 major Asian carriers with extensive networks in the region. So connections would be great and keep the flights running.

Until two years ago, the only direct flights between Brazil and North America were:

Tam to Sao Paulo from NYC and Miami
American from NYC, Miami, Dallas and LA to Sao Paulo (2nd miami flight to rio)
Continental from Houston to Sao Paulo
I think United had a flight.

In the past two years about 10 new flights have sprung up, mostly to northern brazil (salvador, Fortaleza, natal, manaus)

I didnt understand why there were so few, almost all flights were full.

Maybe american carriers just dont like having to allow 2 bags of 70lbs free?

You are forgetting about Rio too. The recent increase in flights to smaller Brazilian cities has been started by American, they are using winglet equipped planes to fly the routes and have had mixed results. Delta has also tried to do the same but has had terrible results. This mainly is because Delta's flight run out of Atlanta where the flights (to Brazil) are well over 90% connecting traffic.

 

[Oakley]

As mentioned, yields are very important to an airline and the viability of a route. Boston-Brazil is a large market but it is mainy VFR (visiting friends and relatives) traffic. That traffic generally does not command a high yield (fare). If TAM wanted to run some high density (no first class, just a small business class and mostly coach) configuration, then Boston-Sao Paulo would be viable.



Hainan had been mentioned to start no-stop service, but nothing ever panned out. Deval and co. hailed the service as a victory of one of their trade missions. Nice work there.

Seoul and Tokyo both would be the best options. Yes the located passenger markets are a decent size, but the real benefit lies in the fact that both airports are hubs for 2 major Asian carriers with extensive networks in the region. So connections would be great and keep the flights running.


You are forgetting about Rio too. The recent increase in flights to smaller Brazilian cities has been started by American, they are using winglet equipped planes to fly the routes and have had mixed results. Delta has also tried to do the same but has had terrible results. This mainly is because Delta's flight run out of Atlanta where the flights (to Brazil) are well over 90% connecting traffic.

If Brazil's economy keeps developing (getting the 2014 World Cup and 2016 Olympics also help), maybe we'll see a business travel sector develop between Boston/New England and Brazil over time. Plus, maybe the 787 will help make it more affordable for airliners to fly such a route.

I believe Tokyo could support a Boston-Tokyo route based on O&D passenger loads alone. Not to mention the amount of business travel. With the limits on slots and flights, I wonder if ANA/Japan Airlines offer enough destinations and flights to be a great place for connections from Boston/New England to the rest of Asia/Pacific. Seems like Korean Air and a very nice airport in a slot-free Seoul airport would be better suited for this.

What are your thoughts on Emirates? Could they come to Boston at some point and feed it's traffic to Dubai, Middle East, and Southeast Asia (India in particular). What about service to Mexico City/Mexico through Mexicana or AeroMexico?

 

[mass88]

If Brazil's economy keeps developing (getting the 2014 World Cup and 2016 Olympics also help), maybe we'll see a business travel sector develop between Boston/New England and Brazil over time. Plus, maybe the 787 will help make it more affordable for airliners to fly such a route.

I believe Tokyo could support a Boston-Tokyo route based on O&D passenger loads alone. Not to mention the amount of business travel. With the limits on slots and flights, I wonder if ANA/Japan Airlines offer enough destinations and flights to be a great place for connections from Boston/New England to the rest of Asia/Pacific. Seems like Korean Air and a very nice airport in a slot-free Seoul airport would be better suited for this.

What are your thoughts on Emirates? Could they come to Boston at some point and feed it's traffic to Dubai, Middle East, and Southeast Asia (India in particular). What about service to Mexico City/Mexico through Mexicana or AeroMexico?

With Emirates, anything is possible. I think Boston will see service by the Emirates at some point, but not in the next 1-3 years. By 2015, I think we will have non-stop service to Dubai. You bring up a good point about India. In addition to the local Indian population in Massachusetts, tech traffic also helps drive the India-Massachusetts traffic. Mexico City has been a tough nut to crack out of Boston. It has been attempted a couple of times with little success. There is a decent sized market, but for some reason, the last 2 times it was tried loads were poor and the yields were only decent. People find it easier to connect via Atlanta on Delta and Houston on Continental when heading to Mexico.

One thing that should be mentioned is that non-stop service to international cities usually tends to increase the market. For example, I know a number of people who live closer to Providence and Manchester and when they have to travel to Asia, they opt to use those airports as they know they will have to make a stop if they left from from Boston too. Giving non-stop options would lure these people to use Logan.

 

[Oakley]

With Emirates, anything is possible. I think Boston will see service by the Emirates at some point, but not in the next 1-3 years. By 2015, I think we will have non-stop service to Dubai. You bring up a good point about India. In addition to the local Indian population in Massachusetts, tech traffic also helps drive the India-Massachusetts traffic. Mexico City has been a tough nut to crack out of Boston. It has been attempted a couple of times with little success. There is a decent sized market, but for some reason, the last 2 times it was tried loads were poor and the yields were only decent. People find it easier to connect via Atlanta on Delta and Houston on Continental when heading to Mexico.

One thing that should be mentioned is that non-stop service to international cities usually tends to increase the market. For example, I know a number of people who live closer to Providence and Manchester and when they have to travel to Asia, they opt to use those airports as they know they will have to make a stop if they left from from Boston too. Giving non-stop options would lure these people to use Logan.

Sorry about some of grammatical errors in my post (such as it's, instead of its).

Emirates would be an interesting choice. The business travel and pure passenger numbers between India-Boston/New England have to be rather high. With the tech trade (and a booming economy) in India and the huge wealth in the Middle East that could be attractive to Boston's financial sector, I don't see why such a flight couldn't be successful. Not to mention Emirates is building a very strong brand.

One concern I have is where would you put these flights and gates if you did get Korean Air (Seoul), ANA (Tokyo), Emirates (Dubai), and any others that may join. The international terminal is pretty tapped out, isn't it?

 

[czsz]

the local Indian population in Massachusetts

How large is this? Compared to the Indian populations in New Jersey, NYC, California, or Illinois, it almost seems like there's no Desi community whatsoever in Massachusetts. I've never seen anything close to an Indian neighborhood in the state; there are just a handful of stores catering to them in Cambridge and Somerville.

 

[Ron Newman]

I've heard actually that Burlington MA is quite popular with Indians.

 

[statler]

^^popular or populated?

 

[mass88]

How large is this? Compared to the Indian populations in New Jersey, NYC, California, or Illinois, it almost seems like there's no Desi community whatsoever in Massachusetts. I've never seen anything close to an Indian neighborhood in the state; there are just a handful of stores catering to them in Cambridge and Somerville.

The states you mentioned are all have larger populations than Mass, especially California and New York. In any event, there are a good amount of Indians scattered throughout the Metro Boston area. Also, other areas have Indian stores and shops besides Cambridge and Somerville.

 

[mass88]

Sorry about some of grammatical errors in my post (such as it's, instead of its).

Emirates would be an interesting choice. The business travel and pure passenger numbers between India-Boston/New England have to be rather high. With the tech trade (and a booming economy) in India and the huge wealth in the Middle East that could be attractive to Boston's financial sector, I don't see why such a flight couldn't be successful. Not to mention Emirates is building a very strong brand.

One concern I have is where would you put these flights and gates if you did get Korean Air (Seoul), ANA (Tokyo), Emirates (Dubai), and any others that may join. The international terminal is pretty tapped out, isn't it?

What's important to remember is that if Boston is to see flights to Dubai, Tokyo and Seoul, they won't be happening for at least 2 or 3 years. In any event, E could accommodate more flights, Asian flights are timed differently than European flights in some cases.

 

[czsz]

The states you mentioned are all have larger populations than Mass, especially California and New York. In any event, there are a good amount of Indians scattered throughout the Metro Boston area. Also, other areas have Indian stores and shops besides Cambridge and Somerville.

Okay, where? I'm not challenging you; I'd be really interested in finding a concentration of these in the state.

Asian flights are timed differently than European flights in some cases.

And flights to/from the Middle East are timed especially weird as, in some cases, they have to take off or arrive in the middle of the night to avoid the heat on the runways. Or so I've heard...and it would explain why Cairo's airport is busiest at 2AM.

 

[Oakley]

There are currently no plans for Lufthansa to make their Munich-Boston route wide body year round. It will stay at the current 7 month wide body run and then 5 month 737.

I really don't think we will see Boston.

Looking over the Lufthansa flights (non-stop), it looks like the Boston-Munich flight is a 330/340 during the winter.

Also, looks like JetBlue really added a lot of flights (no new destinations) to Boston.

 

[blade_bltz]

Moody St has a number of Indian grocers. I'm not sure how "concentrated" the community is in Waltham proper, but the size of these markets is considerable (if I recall).

Of course, there's no question the Indian population in MA is much smaller than that in the four states mentioned. I'd be willing to bet Houston and Dallas have larger and faster growing Indian populations as well.

 

[palindrome]

Someone over at skyscrapercity calculated all the flights from the DC metro to Boston metro airports.

18 Baltimore to Boston (Airtran, Jetblue, Southwest)
9 Baltimore to Providence (Southwest)
9 Baltimore to Manchester (Southwest)
11 Dulles to Boston (United, Jetblue)
4 Dulles to Providence (United)
3 Dulles to Manchester (United)
25 Reagan to Boston (Delta, US Airways)
2 Reagan to Providence
3 Reagan to Manchester
__________________________________________________________
Total: 84 non-stop flights from Washington Area to Boston Area (daily)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=45161269&postcount=327

 

[czsz]

Wow, that's an insane amount of flights.

Think of all the carbon/airport congestion that could be saved by increasing capacity and speed on Acela.

 

[Beton Brut]

^^ Or having a secondary airport in the 128/495 band? How many of these business travelers have to drive to Logan or Manchester or Providence when they could travel a much shorter distance to a repurposed Hanscom Field?

 

[Pierce]

^^ Or having a secondary airport in the 128/495 band? How many of these business travelers have to drive to Logan or Manchester or Providence when they could travel a much shorter distance to a repurposed Hanscom Field?

I think that would likely add to those flights rather than supplant them