MA Casino Developments

There’s an easy way to put some teeth behind these threats. Bostonians should call the bluff, and make the City Council put its shiny new committee to real use by forcing a citywide referendum on Suffolk Downs and Vornado. Doing so would force Menino to relinquish control of the casino approval process. But it would also throw a legitimate scare into Vornado - something Menino has been unable to do. As long as the Filene’s pit is festering, why should these blight barons stay in business?
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I'm a bit confused. Isn't the question one of city-wide rather than an Eastie only vote? Why would the city as a whole be more likely to oppose the casino than just the neighborhood where it would be built? Unless my understanding of the local approval provision is incorrect, the Globe seems to be advocating for something that would lessen Menino's leverage with Vernado.
 
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And why should a thumbs up or down on the casino be used as leverage on Filenes Hole in the first place?

A casino at Suffolk Downs would have impacts of a significantly greater impact than the hole in its present condition. This should be the discussion, for or against.

And we all know that Filenes Hole is destined to be developed at some point.

There must be some other agenda at work here.
 
With a citywide vote, voters could threaten to vote No unless Vornado finds a way to develop or unload the Filene's property.

It's totally reasonable to tell a developer that if you can't competently manage and finish development A, you don't get to do development B.
 
Ron Newman said:
With a citywide vote, voters could threaten to vote No unless Vornado finds a way to develop or unload the Filene's property.

It's totally reasonable to tell a developer that if you can't competently manage and finish development A, you don't get to do development B.
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Ron, I don't disagree with the premise that we should hold Vernado accountable. But as a strategy, I think leaving the vote to the people who might really be against the casino works better than opening it up to a larger group that might not care so much about negative impact.
 
Don't forget Hynes was the developer of Filenes from the get go. And what doe the BRA do when VORNADO FIRES Hynes. The BRA then gives HYNES the greenlight for the Seaport District development.

I think Vornado and Menino are nothing more than noise. I don't think Menino cares about the hole in DTX. If he did he would position himself to get something down.

Seriously how bad does Menino want this casino in East Boston/Revere line. Menino must see the pot of gold at the end of the Rainbow. This might be his Lucky Charms box of cearel.

I was still wondering if Kinvely is deleting emails as the casino process continues to move forward?
 
Rif -- it really is quite simple:

If you have a Ph.D. or even an M.S> in cell biology, biochemistry, the new discipline of biological engineering -- you have your choice of employers on a nearly global scale

Make those degrees a B.S. and the picking is slimmer, make it a B.A. (still much more common) and you will eventually find a job as the unemployment rate for any 4 year college degree is 5%

But if you are the Mayah of a city with still a lot of Blue Collar High School or GED graduates and some even who didn't finish 10th grade -- how do you keep the crowd happy

You get them a job in the one boom part of the local economy that doesn't require a college degree -- Hospitality

What is more hospitable than a mega casino and hotel complex to be built on the Blue Line (2000 potential jobs) for the Blue Collar crowd

Nuff said
 
whighlander said:
Rif -- it really is quite simple:

If you have a Ph.D. or even an M.S> in cell biology, biochemistry, the new discipline of biological engineering -- you have your choice of employers on a nearly global scale

Make those degrees a B.S. and the picking is slimmer, make it a B.A. (still much more common) and you will eventually find a job as the unemployment rate for any 4 year college degree is 5%

But if you are the Mayah of a city with still a lot of Blue Collar High School or GED graduates and some even who didn't finish 10th grade -- how do you keep the crowd happy
You get them a job in the one boom part of the local economy that doesn't require a college degree -- Hospitality

What is more hospitable than a mega casino and hotel complex to be built on the Blue Line (2000 potential jobs) for the Blue Collar crowd

Nuff said
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So instead of educated people that worked hard their whole life by going to college to succeed we get the DUMB dropouts running things at the casino. Now you know why we need taxpayers money to build everything around here.

Whigh ^^^^

One of your better posts..........
 
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AdamBC said:
Fr McGowan has done extensive studies on gambling and its effects on communities and government. Not a bad voice of reason for the downside to casinos.

http://www.bc.edu/content/bc/schools/csom/faculty/bios/mcgowan.html
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I applaud Father McGowan.

He is participating in a summit headlined by this statement:

"Casinos are coming to Massachusetts. Investors and developers are clamoring to be a part of the process."

My point was that Fr McGowan voice appears to be marginal relative to the agenda of the rest of the speakers and the audience. It is not a commentary on him, I am making the point that the discussion in Boston's investment community is already tipping the scales.

PS. Let me add, Adam, I meant no disrespect to Fr McGowan and actually am personally in line with his position.
 
HenryAlan said:
Why would the city as a whole be more likely to oppose the casino than just the neighborhood where it would be built?
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Promoting "jobs" and "community benefits" and "highway improvements" (and an untold litany of other horseshit) to the voters of East Boston and Revere through forums sponsored by elected officials (who are vocal proponents of both expanded gaming and the Suffolk Downs casino proposal) is perceived to be an easier sell than promoting it to the entire City of Boston.

Sicilian said:
There must be some other agenda at work here.
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HenryAlan said:
...I think leaving the vote to the people who might really be against the casino works better than opening it up to a larger group that might not care so much about negative impact.
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Menino and the elected officials representing East Boston (likely in coordination with those in Revere, and Speaker DeLeo in Winthrop) are selling their constituents a bill of goods. The "empowerment" language for host-communities is a bit of a red-herring.

It's addition (to their influence) by subtraction (of educated opponents elsewhere in Boston):
"You get to decide what happens at Suffolk Downs" + "There's jobs, and little league uniforms, and free icecream" = "Casino at Suffolk Downs."

In a recent communique to a growing network of gaming opponents, I said: If we allow our elected officials to control the venue, tone, and content of any public discourse around expanded gambling (in and beyond our communities), we run the risk of surrendering the result they've already come forward to advocate.

Recently, a neighbor forwarded me a listing on Craigslist that lead me to this survey, offering focus group attendees $100 for their opinion on "neighborhood issues." Anyone have a thought on who might be sponsoring three sessions @ $100/opinion? I signed up, but haven't heard back -- if I attend this event, it'll be in the context of intelligence gathering, and I'll put the $100 toward opposition activities.

whighlander said:
But if you are the Mayah of a city with still a lot of Blue Collar High School or GED graduates and some even who didn't finish 10th grade -- how do you keep the crowd happy[?]

You get them a job in the one boom part of the local economy that doesn't require a college degree -- Hospitality
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And to think I wasted seven years on college and grad school...
 
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Beton Brut said:
Promoting "jobs" and "community benefits" and "highway improvements" (and an untold litany of other horseshit) to the voters of East Boston and Revere through forums sponsored by elected officials (who are vocal proponents of both expanded gaming and the Suffolk Downs casino proposal) is perceived to be an easier sell than promoting it to the entire City of Boston.
....


And to think I wasted seven years on college and grad school...
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Bet -- I went to school from age 4 (1/2 nursery school) to age 29 (Ph.D. defense and finishing the editing)

i really enjoy those telephone surveys which always finish by saying "can I ask you about your education background for demographic purposes" --- they start 12 years or less, 16 years .. .and say keep going till you get to 23 9they don't even count kindergarten)

however I don't begrudge someone with only 1/2 as many years of education earning an honest living moving someone's suitcases or tending bar, dealing cards, sweeping, etc.

Massachusetts has the highest percentage of College (4 year) graduates of any state (25%) and Boston is even a bit ahead of the Commonwealth -- but that still leaves 3/4 of the adult population who are the modern version of my father's sister who finished high school and then got a job sewing shoes.

Except that there are no shoe factories or most any of the other traditional "blue" or even "pink' collar jobs

A major exception is the hospitality / entertainment industry which is fiendishly difficult to automate and so will continue to provide jobs for those who for whatever reason don't get Ph.D.s in experimental sciences or engineering.

Don't be so elitist
 
whighlander said:
Don't be so elitist
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On the contrary, working-class people deserve livable communities. Help me understand how a casino will make any urban neighborhood more livable, and more attractive people with school-aged children (regardless of socioeconomics).
 
^^^
Whats wrong with constant smokers, drinking and all night gambling. I might actually move to Revere. Yeah this is great for the NIMBYS........Another Night club where all the gang bangers and drug dealers out of Lynn, Everett, Chelsea, East Boston and Revere can hang out. Welcome to BIFF'S CASINO at Suffolk Downs.
This will be the downfall to those areas heading right in the direction of DETRIOT. It's like the Nuclear Bomb of social economics for this part of the state.

Those areas were actually shaping up since the 70's and 80's right back down the drain.........Revere Beach will be the new desert to plant the degenerates that can't make the weekly vig. What a ashame.

I wouldn't complain if I was one of the owners. The investors involved in this project will clean up.
 
Beton Brut said:
On the contrary, working-class people deserve livable communities. Help me understand how a casino will make any urban neighborhood more livable, and more attractive people with school-aged children (regardless of socioeconomics).
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How is a casino really different than a theme restaurant or one of those fancy movie theaters with the 'stadium seats" or for that matter a sports stadium

In all of the above people come to spend some money gratuitously -- they don't get a product or a vital service -- its just play

And don't tell me about poor people who can't afford to play a slot machine occasionally -- note I'm not talking about gambling addicts any more than I'm taking about alcoholics at a theme restaurant and bar

The key in all the above is that our society has evolved to the point that in the U.S. today -- a significant part of nearly everybody's income is expended on gratuitous purchases far above the threshold required for survival.

When I'm in Vegas I usually drop $20 to $50 on slots and play for a few hours -- then I go back to my room. My wife thinks that when I'm home that I spend too much time on the computer and / or watching TV with the dog -- she would rather read a book a night or so. Casios, lottery tickets, keno, the "President's picks for the NCAA basketball final 4" all are just vehicles for adult play -- of the "gaming" nature. So I really can not find any argument against the business of a legally operated casino.

To that argument you couple the requirements of $1B + investment in a "destination casino / hotel complex" -- you are not going to be talking about some back-alley operation. the kind of operation proposed by Kraft / Wynn or Vornado / Suffolk or Adelson will provide thousands of jobs for all manner of skills and levels from dealing cards to managing a significant computer / communications infrastructure, vacuuming carpets and vacuuming coins from slots, mixing drinks, parking cars, making beds, making reservations, cleaning sinks, fixing light fixtures, cooking, baking, driving trucks, etc.,etc.

As a model take away the office aspects of Pru / Copley complex and what is left: hotels, restaurants, shops, and the Hynes is a fair guess at the scale of the casino we are discussing
 
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Let me get my X-ACTO Knife:

whighlander said:
How is a casino really different than a theme restaurant or one of those fancy movie theaters with the "stadium seats" or for that matter a sports stadium[?]
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For one, non-gaming entertainment facilities don't create a financial profile of their customers. Here's what the IRS has to say in terms of federal regulation of casinos as financial institutions, able to grant credit to "qualified borrowers."

And here are the sorts of tools casinos use to profile their guests:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPdcXol6tSk

whighlander said:
-- they don't get a product or a vital service -- its just play
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whighlander said:
The key in all the above is that our society has evolved to the point that in the U.S. today -- a significant part of nearly everybody's income is expended on gratuitous purchases far above the threshold required for survival.
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Given the fragility of the global economy, and how that effects the lives of individuals and families, is this a quality of contemporary American life that local and state governments should be trying to enhance (directly or indirectly)?

whighlander said:
[T]he kind of operation proposed by Kraft / Wynn or Vornado / Suffolk or Adelson will provide thousands of jobs for all manner of skills and levels from dealing cards to managing a significant computer / communications infrastructure, vacuuming carpets and vacuuming coins from slots, mixing drinks, parking cars, making beds, making reservations, cleaning sinks, fixing light fixtures, cooking, baking, driving trucks, etc.,etc.
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Casino operators spend tens of thousands of dollars training their high-skill staff. Given the failing state of the gaming industry elsewhere in the U.S., isn't it reasonable to think that relocating already-trained dealers, pit bosses, IT staff, and financial managers to Massachusetts from less profitable facilities will be a no-brainer? Low-skill jobs are a wash, if a hotel is built next to the Convention Center, or at a resort casino.
 
Beton Brut said:
Promoting "jobs" and "community benefits" and "highway improvements" (and an untold litany of other horseshit) to the voters of East Boston and Revere through forums sponsored by elected officials (who are vocal proponents of both expanded gaming and the Suffolk Downs casino proposal) is perceived to be an easier sell than promoting it to the entire City of Boston.

.
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Your clearly against this, how is having the community that it is closest to it having the only community say a bad thing? I can't see how that works against your cause, which I'm against.

"On the contrary, working-class people deserve livable communities. Help me understand how a casino will make any urban neighborhood more livable, and more attractive people with school-aged children (regardless of socioeconomics)"

Is this community going to live in this casino, cause otherwise they can just not go to it and they're lives stay the same. It's also relevant to note it's right next oil tanks. If you really want a better neighborhood around Suffolk Downs then those would most certainly have to go. I think you should at least entertain the thought that if it gets built your life won't really change and Suffolk Downs owes you something about as much as you owe it.
 
GW2500 said:
Your clearly against this, how is having the community that it is closest to it having the only community say a bad thing? I can't see how that works against your cause, which I'm against.

"On the contrary, working-class people deserve livable communities. Help me understand how a casino will make any urban neighborhood more livable, and more attractive people with school-aged children (regardless of socioeconomics)"

Is this community going to live in this casino, cause otherwise they can just not go to it and they're lives stay the same. It's also relevant to note it's right next oil tanks. If you really want a better neighborhood around Suffolk Downs then those would most certainly have to go. I think you should at least entertain the thought that if it gets built your life won't really change and Suffolk Downs owes you something about as much as you owe it.
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Or, rather:

"Would you've preferred the dog track came back?"

This is a hell of a lot more upscale than what's there before and the nothing that's there now. The communities are absolutely right at exercising caution with something the state may be moving way too fast to build, but there needs to be a distinction drawn between prudent caution and total fear of changing the status quo. The status quo ain't been so great for a very long time. Is that really preferable to an huge investment of new development they can have considerable say in shaping?
 
I still don't understand why Suffolk Downs is thought of as a good location for this. Setting aside the community impact issue for the moment, were I an investor, I wouldn't like the site. It is completely surrounded by neighborhood. That means an inward only focus, which is fine for the casino, but not at all good for the resort. I'd look for something that is actually on the harbor, rather than simply near the harbor. This makes me think that Menino figures he has a better chance of selling it in Eastie than he does in the proper location, which is the Seaport.
 
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