Manchester Infill & Small Developments

Interesting discussions, guys. I just wanted to add a couple of things.

One, the comparisons between Manch and New Haven/Hartford are off the mark. The population numbers may be similar (Manch being a mere 10,000 or so smaller), but there's more to it than that. Hartford and New Haven cover a REALLY small area geographically (right around 17 Square Miles as opposed to Manch's 32). So, Hartford and New Haven have MORE people in about 1/2 the land area of Manch. They're bigger cities. It's like Comparing Jacksonville's population to Boston's... not an accurate measure. Hartford and New Haven are much larger urban areas than Manchester despite the similar population figures. Realistically, Manchester is much more similar in size to a city like Lawrence, MA or Fall River, MA (though Manch is in better shape than those cities) than it is to Hartford or New Haven.

That being said, while I think comparisons to Hartford are unrealistic, I don't disagree entirely with the New Haven comparison and I'll explain why in a second.

First, I have to chime in and say that I wouldn't consider Manchester a "suburb" of Boston. It's not a bedroom community. It may have a good portion of the population who do commute to Boston for work (in fact, I know some), but they don't all. Manchester still has some major independent functions (economic hub of NH) and its own urban identity. It used to be independent but is no longer entirely that way. However, it hasn't just morphed into Boston's urban fabric like, say, Lynn MA has (now an entirely suburban city). It's more of a SATELLITE city. A city that while retaining some independence, is caught in Boston's orbit.

Being a satellite city isn't a death sentence for a city though. In fact, many cities evolve and fill their role well. Providence is a city that was once an independent entity, but is now a Satellite of Boston. It has taken advantage of its ties to Boston (i.e. big city public transit in the commuter rail, and high level Amtrak service as well as more affordable urban housing) to establish itself as an urban oasis at the exterior of Boston's suburbs. Of course other things have played into the revitalization, but it has reinvented itself very well.

New Haven has done the same thing as a satellite city of New York. It may no longer be in it's own universe anymore, but it has adapted well to being in NYC's orbit. I can't think of any place in New England (outside of Boston) to go for a better urban environment (restaurants, museums, shopping, nighltife, etc) than Providence and New Haven. At the same time, these cities make great options for people who work in NYC/ Boston or just want to be near those cities yet can't afford to live IN them. They have fully adapted to their role and the change from being independent and primary to being a secondary orbiting city.

Manchester can find its niche in the same fashion. It needs better transit (though having the airport there doesn't hurt). IT can act as an affordable urban oasis as well as the primary city in the region. Having the airport, hospitals, restaurants and nightlife in that region will keep it from becoming irrelevant regardless of how entwined in the Boston area it is. Manchester has more going for it than many cities in similar shoes (Lawrence and Fall River, again, being good examples) and I bet it will eventually thrive in its adapted role.
 
Hey again, first off that article Patrick was great, and it brings me to my first point of how you said Manchester already had its boom. I know we have come quite a long way from where we were twenty years ago, but the way I see it, the boom was made up of renovations of what the city already had, in terms of office, retail, and dining space. Granted we did gain an incredible amount from it, like the new arena, and ballpark, but there was no ?building boom? like other cities, such as Providence has had.. Manchester filled in the spaces it already had, but the development stopped before anything new could go up. That?s what I would like to see, and I think the reason this didn?t occur was because of the current mayor being elected, and the economic turndown. The only good thing about Guinta being elected, I think, is that if Baines or someone who was really determined to get new development going was mayor at the time of the turndown, we might have projects sitting around unfinished throughout the city, I guess you have to look at it is the glass half full, we should use the economic situation to our advantage, get the city ready so when development opportunities arise, Manchester will be a choice for people to come to, to start growing again. Also I realize where Manchester stands in terms of what it has to work with. Cities like Providence, Worcester, and New Haven have very prestigious university?s like you said Patrick that play a big part in how the city has grown, and the schools Manchester has are good schools, but not known on a national or international level. What Manchester can do with the schools it has, is work with them when they expand to better benefit the community, like internship opportunities with city businesses, dorms and classrooms located in the downtown, etc. A big thing on the table right now is getting rail to comeback to Manch, like Lrfox said, better transit to and from Boston will help us grow. Oh, and also I want to clarify what I meant by my comparisons with other places, what I meant was that we have a similar population, so why can?t we BECOME, like these places, not that we already are. Manchester has the foundation down for development; we just need to attract it. Also acting as an edge city is a great thing, but we also have to be independent. I think the main reason we haven?t become like Fall River Mass, etc, is that we are in a different state. We benefit from having Boston near us, but being in a different stay more or less solidifies an independence from Boston, making us the economic center of New Hampshire, like Providence to Rhode Island. The city does need to take advantage of its proximity to Boston, which it doesn?t. I?m a firm believer in the ?why not? factor, why can?t Manchester have a better developed, more retail and business oriented downtown, why can?t we have a connection to the commuter rail down to Boston, why can?t we have something like the Providence Place Mall. It takes time, but with the right amount of determination from city officials, Manchester can grow to become a strong competitor in New England. That sounded a bit preachy, but ehh, I really think the city could do it.
 
Muns1990 said:
Hey again, first off that article Patrick was great, and it brings me to my first point of how you said Manchester already had its boom. I know we have come quite a long way from where we were twenty years ago, but the way I see it, the boom was made up of renovations of what the city already had, in terms of office, retail, and dining space. Granted we did gain an incredible amount from it, like the new arena, and ballpark, but there was no ?building boom? like other cities, such as Providence has had.. Manchester filled in the spaces it already had, but the development stopped before anything new could go up. That?s what I would like to see, and I think the reason this didn?t occur was because of the current mayor being elected, and the economic turndown. The only good thing about Guinta being elected, I think, is that if Baines or someone who was really determined to get new development going was mayor at the time of the turndown, we might have projects sitting around unfinished throughout the city, I guess you have to look at it is the glass half full, we should use the economic situation to our advantage, get the city ready so when development opportunities arise, Manchester will be a choice for people to come to, to start growing again. Also I realize where Manchester stands in terms of what it has to work with. Cities like Providence, Worcester, and New Haven have very prestigious university?s like you said Patrick that play a big part in how the city has grown, and the schools Manchester has are good schools, but not known on a national or international level. What Manchester can do with the schools it has, is work with them when they expand to better benefit the community, like internship opportunities with city businesses, dorms and classrooms located in the downtown, etc. A big thing on the table right now is getting rail to comeback to Manch, like Lrfox said, better transit to and from Boston will help us grow. Oh, and also I want to clarify what I meant by my comparisons with other places, what I meant was that we have a similar population, so why can?t we BECOME, like these places, not that we already are. Manchester has the foundation down for development; we just need to attract it. Also acting as an edge city is a great thing, but we also have to be independent. I think the main reason we haven?t become like Fall River Mass, etc, is that we are in a different state. We benefit from having Boston near us, but being in a different stay more or less solidifies an independence from Boston, making us the economic center of New Hampshire, like Providence to Rhode Island. The city does need to take advantage of its proximity to Boston, which it doesn?t. I?m a firm believer in the ?why not? factor, why can?t Manchester have a better developed, more retail and business oriented downtown, why can?t we have a connection to the commuter rail down to Boston, why can?t we have something like the Providence Place Mall. It takes time, but with the right amount of determination from city officials, Manchester can grow to become a strong competitor in New England. That sounded a bit preachy, but ehh, I really think the city could do it.
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All very good points. You have a similar attitude to me. I say why not as well when it comes to development. Wal mart? No thanks. But a high rise downtown? Of course. But, many people don't see a distinction between wal mart and high rises...all development is bad to them. it is peculiar. Nimbyism. People want to benefit from development (i.e. work, jobs, shopping, etc.) but they don't want it in their back yard or even on their block. Thus, you have places like Manchester, NH, which if it weren't for commuters would likely be a lot smaller. The city grew from an original mill town, set up to house the workers, and was booming because of that. then the mill jobs shipped overseas. Its classic post industrial new england scenario. The rents lowered and property values decreased because of a lack of demand for housing stemming from a lack of jobs (i.e. a lack of reasons to locate to Manchester). Now the city has a housing glut (to some extent, at least compared to its prime) and it needs to pursue policies that replace all of the high paying mill jobs and productive industry with something else. Thing is, that's easier said than done. The very thing for which the city was founded no longer exists. Its similar to what is being done with the mills (creative reuse) but on a municipal scale.

Also, Manchester is not near the population of places you compared it to. Not to argue, but the peak of Manch is at the shell of the other places (and even then it is less). The other small big cities in New England all have comparatively huge (1 million or more) metro areas. Manchester has 400,000 I think. So, compare those numbers and things look a little more understandable. The inner city population does not, in this day and age of the commuter, define the build out of a central city. Southern NH certainly could build a much larger metro area, and quite easily, even without an in migration. There are currently about 1 million people who live in southern NH. why is Manchester's metro region so small then? Because they don't all work in or depend on Manch. But they could. This would require drawing business from Northern Mass and Nashua, as well as concord, centralizing things. This would accelerate given the right sort of policy framework, which is a political objective to achieve, and depends on the right people in office. Perhaps you could affect this landscape?
 
Ya, it?s kind of hard to get a straight answer about what Manchester?s metro is. I?ve heard people say that its 175,000, just the immediate towns surrounding it, to 600,000 or so, and that would be Hillsborough, and Rockingham counties in their entirety. Both of those are a little out of whack, so 400,000 is probably a good gauge as to what it is. That though isn?t anything to complain about, say half of those people who live outside the city are part of the work force, 150,000 (subtracting Manch?s pop from that 400,000 metro), if Manch could get just 10% of those people to work in the city, that?s a decent amount of people. That would be on the low end too, what you could really hope for is to get a huge chunk of those people to find jobs in Manch, whatever they may be, and turn the surrounding area into bedroom communities that are oriented towards Manchester, not northern Mass. Seeing that it is the largest city in the state, it really needs start acting that way. Manchester has to really be strong about this, and say to itself that it is plenty capable to handle just as much as any other New England city could, and with a Mayor, Alderman, etc, who feel this way, it can try, and can, reverse the hold Mass has on southern NH. Obviously none of this happens over night, but a good ten years of thinking this way, and Manch could really change how southern NH works, the city needs to become the focal point. The dynamic would be completely different if Manchester was the same distance, population, and what not, and was in the same state as Boston. Since it?s not, it has just as much of a right to be the center of NH, as does a city that is the largest in its respective state. One thing that really has to change, is that downtown needs retail, not just like little shops and such, but real stores that would bring people downtown who usually don?t go there. For instance, there is no movie theater in Manchester, that?s just ridiculous. Hooksett, the town north of Manchester, basically stole a brand new IMAX theater from being built downtown. Back in like say 2004 or 2005 cinemagic was looking to open another theater in or around Manchester, and the city was in talks to bring it downtown where the Plaza Mall is, a perfect space for it. Hooksett though swooped in and gave the company this deal they couldn?t pass up on, on this huge chunk of land to build the theater on. It was over from there, two years later cinemagic opened up in Hooksett. The whole city needs to start working from the ground up though, first take care of the crime, and poor school district, and then make the place look a little better. There needs to be some major road paving done, and nice new tar can make a street a million times more appealing. Until things like this are done, nobody is going to want to move to Manchester. As for people being passionate about Manch, it?s pretty fifty fifty, there are a lot who love it, and then a lot who just see it as another Lowell. As for me getting involved in the ?landscape? of the city, maybe after I get out of college haha, I just love where I?m from. I just hate it when people don?t like Manchester, and ask what?s so great about it. There?s so much history in the city, and if we?ve been on top before with those mills, we can certainly find a new niche for ourselves to do it again.
 
I'm glad you mentioned the movie theaters because those were supposed to be located in the city. It seems that the approval process to get anything done moves way too slowly sometimes. Although, the Elliott got quick approval, so maybe that's a sign of things to come. Once the airport access road is complete, tons of companies will move into that area. There are already plans for more office space on the Londonderry side.

If commuter rail comes to the city, it will only help. People would definitely use it. You know it's a good thing because the Union Leader is against it.

I'm most excited right now for the new Elliott because that's going to transform that whole area. It's kind of a sketchy area over near Bakersville and I'd like to see southern Elm grow to match the northern portion in terms of its look. There were plans to tear down the plumbing supply business next to Van Otis and build a ten story mixed use building, but I'm sure the developers are waiting for the economy to bounce back.
 
Lrfox said:
Interesting discussions, guys. I just wanted to add a couple of things.

One, the comparisons between Manch and New Haven/Hartford are off the mark. The population numbers may be similar (Manch being a mere 10,000 or so smaller), but there's more to it than that. Hartford and New Haven cover a REALLY small area geographically (right around 17 Square Miles as opposed to Manch's 32). So, Hartford and New Haven have MORE people in about 1/2 the land area of Manch. They're bigger cities. It's like Comparing Jacksonville's population to Boston's... not an accurate measure. Hartford and New Haven are much larger urban areas than Manchester despite the similar population figures. Realistically, Manchester is much more similar in size to a city like Lawrence, MA or Fall River, MA (though Manch is in better shape than those cities) than it is to Hartford or New Haven.

That being said, while I think comparisons to Hartford are unrealistic, I don't disagree entirely with the New Haven comparison and I'll explain why in a second.

First, I have to chime in and say that I wouldn't consider Manchester a "suburb" of Boston. It's not a bedroom community. It may have a good portion of the population who do commute to Boston for work (in fact, I know some), but they don't all. Manchester still has some major independent functions (economic hub of NH) and its own urban identity. It used to be independent but is no longer entirely that way. However, it hasn't just morphed into Boston's urban fabric like, say, Lynn MA has (now an entirely suburban city). It's more of a SATELLITE city. A city that while retaining some independence, is caught in Boston's orbit.

Being a satellite city isn't a death sentence for a city though. In fact, many cities evolve and fill their role well. Providence is a city that was once an independent entity, but is now a Satellite of Boston. It has taken advantage of its ties to Boston (i.e. big city public transit in the commuter rail, and high level Amtrak service as well as more affordable urban housing) to establish itself as an urban oasis at the exterior of Boston's suburbs. Of course other things have played into the revitalization, but it has reinvented itself very well.

New Haven has done the same thing as a satellite city of New York. It may no longer be in it's own universe anymore, but it has adapted well to being in NYC's orbit. I can't think of any place in New England (outside of Boston) to go for a better urban environment (restaurants, museums, shopping, nighltife, etc) than Providence and New Haven. At the same time, these cities make great options for people who work in NYC/ Boston or just want to be near those cities yet can't afford to live IN them. They have fully adapted to their role and the change from being independent and primary to being a secondary orbiting city.

Manchester can find its niche in the same fashion. It needs better transit (though having the airport there doesn't hurt). IT can act as an affordable urban oasis as well as the primary city in the region. Having the airport, hospitals, restaurants and nightlife in that region will keep it from becoming irrelevant regardless of how entwined in the Boston area it is. Manchester has more going for it than many cities in similar shoes (Lawrence and Fall River, again, being good examples) and I bet it will eventually thrive in its adapted role.
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Good points. I just wanted to point out that I used the term suburb loosely. By a suburb, I mean: more so than average, people AROUND the city of Manchester commute to places OTHER than Manchester. I guess I meant its metro region is half a suburb or Northern Massachusetts (not just Boston). So, while there may be 1 million ppl in So NH, where the travel during the day is NOT 100% manchester, unlike somewhere like Burlington, VT, where everybody has but one choice as to where they work and shop etc. Manchester area people can choose to go to Manchester, or, if they locate a suitable job elsewhere (not an impossibility, given the proximity of northern mass, nashua, and concord) they can work there as well, instead. It is this factor that I think makes the manchester AREA suburban, even if the city is obviously not just a bedroom community.
 
NICE!

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When was this proposed, because I think I saw these plans a few years back. If it does go through, it would be a great addition to southern Elm st, making it a little less warehousey, and with the Elliot Center going up on the other end, it'll cap the end of the "southern downtown". The Elliot Center really needs to get a move on though, they broke ground for it like a year ago this month and it's still just this GIGANTIC hole in the ground hidden behind a few tenement buildings, and a gas station. That looks great though if they do build it!
 
Patrick said:
Good points. I just wanted to point out that I used the term suburb loosely. By a suburb, I mean: more so than average, people AROUND the city of Manchester commute to places OTHER than Manchester. I guess I meant its metro region is half a suburb or Northern Massachusetts (not just Boston). So, while there may be 1 million ppl in So NH, where the travel during the day is NOT 100% manchester, unlike somewhere like Burlington, VT, where everybody has but one choice as to where they work and shop etc. Manchester area people can choose to go to Manchester, or, if they locate a suitable job elsewhere (not an impossibility, given the proximity of northern mass, nashua, and concord) they can work there as well, instead. It is this factor that I think makes the manchester AREA suburban, even if the city is obviously not just a bedroom community.
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Sounds like we're on the same page but using different terminology. That's about how I'd sum it up.
 
Well I wish Manch would just use what it had to its advantage. Hopefully now that the recession is slowing, the city might be able to get some corporations that are starting to grow again to move to the city. Just want Manchester to have a more vital role in NH, and New England. If only every pipe dream of mine could come true for the city.......haha.
 
Well they can and they might, but not by merely thinking of them. There has to be a coordinated and concentrated effort to revitalize a place. Historic forces operate to bring industry to locations where it is most economical and efficient to operate, based on cost of labor, skills, know how, and geography. Just about all of these things, with the exception of geography, change over time. So, the things that once conspired naturally to make a town what it is/was may not be in force any longer. This seems to be the case for manchester. It is at this point where a city can either accept a redefined role as the center of a commuter region or as the center of a self sustaining urban center. It seems like a place could also opt to play both roles, something manchester does to a degree already, siding more on the commuter side of the spectrum's center, though, I think. Given the fact that historical and economic forces responsible for manchester's existence no longer exert the same pull on its development these days, it is going to take proactive efforts to ensure that the city develops more toward the other end of the spectrum. Otherwise, it will fall comfortably into a niche where it provides gas and other necessities to those on their way to Massachusetts. This may be the optimal choice for an individual family living in manchester, which wants to take advantage of proximity to a larger business market while being near cheaper housing, but in the aggregate if everyone makes similar assessments of manchester's regional significance, it leads the city to be not much at all. There need to be policies to attract new investment, as relying on natural market forces likely won't accomplish things on the scale you seem to be hoping for. Interfering in the market is not always a bad thing. in fact, i guess what I am suggesting is less actually interfering with the market or in the market than it is actually influencing or creating the market. the art college seems to be great. what about getting more dorms downtown? remember, large businesses are great for a skyline but they might not do much for a city if all of the workers go home at a certain time of day and the sidewalks correpsondingly roll up. Get more housing in town. how? give people a reason to want to be there. providence place mall and the old port in portland are examples of what I mean. create an arts district. student dorms inevitably seem to bring culture as well. organize community events more than currently exist. give reasons for people to move downtown and the rest I think has a better chance of falling into place. you have to pursue the type of vibrancy you are seeking indirectly by promoting policies which at first may seem like they have nothing at all to do with attracting large businesses, condo developments, skyline altering structures etc. those things follow the more community oriented developments i think
 
I love the discussion guys. I also think that Manch is not quit a suburb, but a satilite city like Providence and Worcester, and if you look on a map it looks like it was almost planned that way; Boston in the center, Worcester directly to the west, Providence directly to the south, and Manchester directly to the north and they are all pretty much the same distance away from Boston. And I think that is a great situation for Manchester to be in. It just makes the Boston metro (Boston-Worcester-Providence-Manchester CMSA) more powerful. But I also agree than Manchester needs to become more attractive, though I think that it is quit attractive right now. If it wasn't the population would be lowerer, the airport wouldnt have grown to what it is now, we wouldnt have any sports teams, new construction and so on. I think what we need is a downtown mall like Providence. So I guess what I am saying is Manch needs to become more like Providence and Worcester than what it already is now.

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being 'more like Worcester' doesn't sound like a good plan to me.
 
Yes, I absolutely agree with you Patrick, and M. Brown, that's what I've been trying to get at all along, Manchester-Worcester-Providence. Especially Providence, I think the whole revitalization that has gone on there is amazing, and want something to that degree to happen for Manchester. Since Boston already has two fairly large satellite cities to its south and west, why can't Manchester also take advantage of the proximity to grow and become a player as the third. Right now its almost like it goes Southern NH-Worcester-Providence, instead of Manchester. Just like Providence acts as a satellite, and regional center of its state, Manchester should be able to pull that off too. One major issue with Manch is too much of its retail is concentrated on South Willow St, the area that contains the mall, chain restaurant, car dealers etc. Leave the car dealers, and tire shops there, and get all the retail you can to move downtown. About 10 years ago Manch's mall went under a huge renovation, but now its failing because it contains the same stores as the Salem, and Nashua malls that sit on the border of Mass. Something like Providence Place would do well downtown, but they should try and attract stores that aren't in NH, but have locations right over the border in Mass. Something like an "upscale mall" would bring more upscale people downtown, altering the demographic of people who usually stay there after 5pm. For instance I know places like Nordstrom, Crate&Barrel, etc are all places that have no locations in NH, but NH people will flock over the border to mass to shop at, if locations were brought to Manch in some sort of downtown mall it would bring NH shoppers, as well as tax evading bay staters. Also, whenever there is talk of the downtown, the city always says there is no room to build, but the last time I check the whole area is full of flat open spaces called parking lots, that could easily be developed over. First though the city has to take care of the schools, and crime. Sadly today's Manchester Express's, weekly alternative paper, front cover was "25% of Queen City Kids live below poverty line, why?". Manchester just needs to be worked through top to bottom.
 
Ted Gatsas won for mayor, which isn't totally bad, either one was better than what we have, but something terrible happened. The voters approved a tax cap, one gigantic step backwards for the city.
 
A few pictures of the downtown area on November 9th 2009.


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very nice. thanks for posting. What an impressive skyline for a small city. What I think the town could use is more affordable housing and closer to downtown. make it a 24/7 type of place. that would do a bunch. too many parking lots. should be housing in my opinion. I know you don't control these things, just rambling on I guess
 
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