Marine Industrial Park | Seaport

Well, you never know what may change in twenty years...IMHO the use of this land for industrial development is a very poor allocation of resources. The land could generate hundreds of millions of dollars in annual property taxes if it became an extension of the seaport while providing a new opportunity in city building for a land constrained urban center. The blue collar jobs that the district houses are insufficient to justify that trade off.
 
sidewalks said:
Well, you never know what may change in twenty years...IMHO the use of this land for industrial development is a very poor allocation of resources. The land could generate hundreds of millions of dollars in annual property taxes if it became an extension of the seaport while providing a new opportunity in city building for a land constrained urban center. The blue collar jobs that the district houses are insufficient to justify that trade off.
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Boston is still a significant U.S. port., You can’t just get rid of all possible places to conduct maritime-related industry in the name of property taxes and the housing stock. It’s no “trade off,” it’s necessary.
 
I kept hoping that perhaps Coast Guard would move here from North End freeing up even more valuable land for development there....
 
chrisbrat said:
Boston is still a significant U.S. port., You can’t just get rid of all possible places to conduct maritime-related industry in the name of property taxes and the housing stock. It’s no “trade off,” it’s necessary.
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If it's so "necessary" why has the vast majority of that land lay fallow for the past fifty years? They were so desperate to find somebody ANYBODY to rent space they struck a deal with a salt pile operator.
 
sidewalks said:
If it's so "necessary" why has the vast majority of that land lay fallow for the past fifty years? They were so desperate to find somebody ANYBODY to rent space they struck a deal with a salt pile operator.
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There's new buildings in the works for seafood companies down here. The more diversification an area's economy has, the stronger it is. There's already enough soulless condo buildings there as it is.
 
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Suffolk 83 said:
There's new buildings in the works for seafood companies down here. The more diversification an area's economy is, the stronger it is. There's already enough soulless condo buildings there as it is.
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I'd take a condo building with ground floor street life that adds to the city's desperately inadequate housing stock over a windowless fish processing warehouse every day of the week. We need housing (no matter the type) far more than we need cheap industrial space.
 
sidewalks said:
I'd take a condo building with ground floor street life that adds to the city's desperately inadequate housing stock over a windowless fish processing warehouse every day of the week. We need housing (no matter the type) far more than we need cheap industrial space.
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Yea I figured that out already
 
sidewalks said:
I'd take a condo building with ground floor street life that adds to the city's desperately inadequate housing stock over a windowless fish processing warehouse every day of the week. We need housing (no matter the type) far more than we need cheap industrial space.
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And yet you'll never be able to eat out because the lack of any effort at wholesale food pricing stabilization via city-serving warehouse infrastructure ends up pricing out 75% of the populace in all that "not one square acre wasted!!!" extra housing stock.

Maybe this issue is slightly more nuanced than total stark simplistic black-and-white. NYC figured that out with Hunts Point...which I'm sure in an alternate universe could've been a totes awesomesauce* lofts condo community.

*for the cost of nearly an hour's pay to order the side of "sauce"
 
sidewalks said:
If it's so "necessary" why has the vast majority of that land lay fallow for the past fifty years? They were so desperate to find somebody ANYBODY to rent space they struck a deal with a salt pile operator.
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City infrastructure still needs to operate. We need salt pile operators, because in the winter we need road salt. Our entire waterfront cannot be a playground, some of it needs to be working.

Also the large flats were created in by landfill in the 1980's -- these were finger piers before then. No doubt Massport and BPDA have mishandled trying to get marine development in the area. Part of the problem is they expect the developer to refurbish the port facilities (kind of like how they treat air rights as though they are terra firma). Neglecting the huge investment and risk associated causes lack of movement on proposals (there are simpler things for developer to build).
 
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JeffDowntown said:
City infrastructure still needs to operate. We need salt pile operators, because in the winter we need road salt. Our entire waterfront cannot be a playground, some of it needs to be working.

Also the large flats were created in by landfill in the 1980's -- these were finger piers before then. No doubt Massport and BPDA have mishandled trying to get marine development in the area. Part of the problem is they expect the developer to refurbish the port facilities (kind of like how they treat air rights as though they are terra firma). Neglecting the huge investment and risk associated causes lack of movement on proposals (there are simpler things for developer to build).
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Just look at the aerial view on google maps and you can see what is operating in the marine industrial park...then drive the streets. There is precious little business activity and a bunch of dilapidated old buildings and trash strewn parking lots. It makes people feel good to say that we are preserving blue collar jobs, but that's misleading. We aren't preserving many blue collar jobs at all, we are just locating (a numerically tiny number of ) them in an area that has a higher and better use whichcould contribute more to the life and economic strength of the city.
 
sidewalks said:
Just look at the aerial view on google maps and you can see what is operating in the marine industrial park...then drive the streets. There is precious little business activity and a bunch of dilapidated old buildings and trash strewn parking lots. It makes people feel good to say that we are preserving blue collar jobs, but that's misleading. We aren't preserving many blue collar jobs at all, we are just locating (a numerically tiny number of ) them in an area that has a higher and better use whichcould contribute more to the life and economic strength of the city.
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There's a million other places in this city with better bones than this spot. The lack of transportation to/from here plus the probably huge amount of ground remediation needed before residential could even be built real blocking issues. The only interesting part about this property is that it is on the waterfront... which in and of itself does not make it valuable.

In other words this conversation is about twenty, maybe thirty years too early.
 
meddlepal said:
There's a million other places in this city with better bones than this spot. The lack of transportation to/from here plus the probably huge amount of ground remediation needed before residential could even be built real blocking issues. The only interesting part about this property is that it is on the waterfront... which in and of itself does not make it valuable.

In other words this conversation is about twenty, maybe thirty years too early.
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Is there a realistic middle ground of developing a mixed-use industrial building/residential building in that area? As in the first level or two for industrial use and then a few stories above for housing with views of the area. There could even be some kind of ground floor retail in some area much like what's done with the Black Falcon building (Boston Design Building) where there is a Flour Cafe at ground level. I know a lot of the Black Falcon building is office and lab space above, but still.
 
sidewalks said:
If it's so "necessary" why has the vast majority of that land lay fallow for the past fifty years? They were so desperate to find somebody ANYBODY to rent space they struck a deal with a salt pile operator.
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While a lot of "The Seaport"/"Innovation District" was indeed barren and/or parking lots, it's also a fact that recent development has pushed out a number of commercial fishing operations. To whatever degree this can offset that, it's a good thing.
 
sidewalks said:
Just look at the aerial view on google maps and you can see what is operating in the marine industrial park...then drive the streets. There is precious little business activity and a bunch of dilapidated old buildings and trash strewn parking lots. It makes people feel good to say that we are preserving blue collar jobs, but that's misleading. We aren't preserving many blue collar jobs at all, we are just locating (a numerically tiny number of ) them in an area that has a higher and better use whichcould contribute more to the life and economic strength of the city.
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Single-minded instant gratification is an awesome way to anticipate 50-year future needs in a dense city of interdependent systems. Why don't we review how that rising tide lifted all fortunes during 1960's Urban Renewal?


This is an area with a long-game buildout plan for perishables warehousing as a means of stabilizing regional wholesale food pricing against market shocks. Please elaborate how "affordable" city living is going to be if most people living in the inner city 25 years from now are priced out of restaurant and local-market fresh food staples? That is something that large cities are now starting to grapple with for future anticipation.
 
AndrewOnTheMBTA said:
Is there a realistic middle ground of developing a mixed-use industrial building/residential building in that area? As in the first level or two for industrial use and then a few stories above for housing with views of the area. There could even be some kind of ground floor retail in some area much like what's done with the Black Falcon building (Boston Design Building) where there is a Flour Cafe at ground level. I know a lot of the Black Falcon building is office and lab space above, but still.
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Prior to the 1960s, many areas of Boston and Cambridge were mixed residential and industrial. East Cambridge and North Cambridge were that way. I think this area of Boston could eventually become a mixed use area where there is a land use pattern of one or two blocks of residential/commercial interspersed with one or two blocks of industrial. It would be necessary to manage truck traffic and noise levels. Industry now is mostly "clean", so there shouldn't be significant pollutants to address. I think a really exciting city should have these areas of mixed use, properly managed. As a kid I remember how vibrant East Cambridge was with its residential areas having some small industrial uses mixed in, and the larger industrial area a couple of blocks to the south. It can be an effective urban model now with industry much cleaner than it was 70 years ago, and tighter zoning and traffic management in place.
 
Charlie_mta said:
Prior to the 1960s, many areas of Boston and Cambridge were mixed residential and industrial. East Cambridge and North Cambridge were that way. I think this area of Boston could eventually become a mixed use area where there is a land use pattern of one or two blocks of residential/commercial interspersed with one or two blocks of industrial. It would be necessary to manage truck traffic and noise levels. Industry now is mostly "clean", so there shouldn't be significant pollutants to address. I think a really exciting city should have these areas of mixed use, properly managed. As a kid I remember how vibrant East Cambridge was with its residential areas having some small industrial uses mixed in, and the larger industrial area a couple of blocks to the south. It can be an effective urban model now with industry much cleaner than it was 70 years ago, and tighter zoning and traffic management in place.
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Yea you could probably do some mixed residential/ light-industrial but I think there’s still significant pollution problems not to mention sound, vibration and fire issues with industrial that can only be mitigated with money.

My point is I do not think the problem is whether you can do it but whether you can find a market that will buy or rent those units that allows the developers to make a profit vs starting projects on more viable areas. Then you still have the transportation problem out here.
 
meddlepal said:
Yea you could probably do some mixed residential/ light-industrial but I think there’s still significant pollution problems not to mention sound, vibration and fire issues with industrial that can only be mitigated with money.

My point is I do not think the problem is whether you can do it but whether you can find a market that will buy or rent those units that allows the developers to make a profit vs starting projects on more viable areas. Then you still have the transportation problem out here.
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Oh I 100% agree that the transportation issue would have to be addressed before any mixed use development were considered in that area. That said, at least that might provide an impetus to create a transportation solution for the ENTIRE seaport which is already choking on traffic. You could probably fund the transportation improvements with a TIF approach.
 
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