MBTA Red Line / Blue Line Connector

[bigeman312]

There is no way the Minuteman trail would ever be converted to transit, either rail or BRT. Any transit will need to be tunneled under the trail, OR in a God Mode pitch, the trail remain in place with elevated rail over it, which is obviously a non-starter in Lexington and Arlington.

If it wasn’t clear, I 100% agree.

 

[Charlie_mta]

If it wasn’t clear, I 100% agree.

I figured that; I was just agreeing with you. In my opinion, it is unfortunate that elevated rail is generally regarded as toxic by the public in the Boston area. Other metro areas are pushing ahead with it. The Minuteman could stay in place with an aesthetically pleasing (at least relatively speaking) elevated structure on single piers alongside the trail. The issue would be noise to the adjacent homes, and the visual impacts as well. Oh well, my wife always tells me that I've never seen an overpass I don't like.

 

[JeffDowntown]

I figured that; I was just agreeing with you. In my opinion, it is unfortunate that elevated rail is generally regarded as toxic by the public in the Boston area. Other metro areas are pushing ahead with it. The Minuteman could stay in place with an aesthetically pleasing (at least relatively speaking) elevated structure on single piers alongside the trail. The issue would be noise to the adjacent homes, and the visual impacts as well. Oh well, my wife always tells me that I've never seen an overpass I don't like.

I think Els are viewed as toxic because, in Boston, the neighborhoods that had Els through them ended up blighted. And the blight was not reversed until the Els came down. So we learned from history.

 

[BosMaineiac]

That's a very interesting thought! However, I think the point still stands that if you think Lexington lacks the demand for HRT, they might not even need LRT as compared to buses that run through streets with largely light traffic, are much less of a hassle to build and operate, and can potentially run even higher frequencies reliably if really needed.

Also, F-Line suggested above that downtown Lexington itself is a bottleneck. From a quick eyeballing of Google satellite, looks like putting 2 tracks and the trail requires you to eliminate a portion of these giant parking lots. Not saying it shouldn't be done, but I'd think that if the political challenges of doing so can be tackled, then at least some other parts of the ROW can also be double tracked.

I think it's important to point out that the destination isn't Lexington itself, but instead Route 128 in Lexington. With Route 3 terminating nearby and the huge potential for TOD also nearby at the Burlington Mall/Hartwell Ave, the ridership potential far outweighs Lex on its own. Plus, as NIMBY as Lexington would be, I don't think it can stay that way forever with the MBTA communities law, especially if there is in fact a rapid transit connection.

As far as the tunneling/at-grade debate goes, I think there would need to be some sort of compromise in downtown LEX, with a capped trench running through and at-grade elsewhere on the ROW. Perhaps there could be mitigation with sound walls at various locations. The minuteman trail would have to be rerouted off the ROW in a RL to Lex/Rt 128 universe, I think that much is pretty obvious.

 

[Teban54]

I think Els are viewed as toxic because, in Boston, the neighborhoods that had Els through them ended up blighted. And the blight was not reversed until the Els came down. So we learned from history.

In some sense, that's also why the many remaining Els in NYC are also being viewed as bad, because they're ancient and had similarly negative effects to the nearby neighborhoods as the Els in Boston did. That's why I think it's important to build some role models, preferably nearby, of modern Els so that people can see they're different from the ancient Els and are more supportive of them.

 

[bigeman312]

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I genuinely want to be enlightened. I'm pro mass-transit (obviously) and have loved riding Els in many cities, but I always view them as having inherently negative effects on their surroundings compared to at-grade and underground alternatives. Change my mind, please! Is there some evidence to enlighten me?

 

[jklo]

Yeah. You guys are crazy thinking that ELs are a good idea.

 

[FK4]

There is no way the Minuteman trail would ever be converted to transit, either rail or BRT. Any transit will need to be tunneled under the trail, OR in a God Mode pitch, the trail remain in place with elevated rail over it, which is obviously a non-starter in Lexington and Arlington.

Tunnel to Arlington Ctr in 100 years, if Arlington actually grows denser. That’s it

 

[chrisbrat]

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I genuinely want to be enlightened. I'm pro mass-transit (obviously) and have loved riding Els in many cities, but I always view them as having inherently negative effects on their surroundings compared to at-grade and underground alternatives. Change my mind, please! Is there some evidence to enlighten me?

You're not stirring the pot; they do have inherent negative impact. They don't just get torn down "because they're old." Nobody wants to live in the shadows of an elevated line.

 

[Teban54]

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I genuinely want to be enlightened. I'm pro mass-transit (obviously) and have loved riding Els in many cities, but I always view them as having inherently negative effects on their surroundings compared to at-grade and underground alternatives. Change my mind, please! Is there some evidence to enlighten me?

I was not saying modern Els have no negative effects on their surroundings. I was saying 1) their impacts are often blown out of proportions in public engagement, because people think of them like the old Els, which have additional issues that can be avoided; and 2) wherever feasible, they're a cost-effective way to bring quality transit that can be far cheaper than the alternatives.

For 1), yes, any El will block sunlight to some extent, especially if you build them on narrow 2-lane streets. However, not only is that less of an issue on wider streets, but many (if not most) other public complaints of Els are only applicable to those ancient structures:

• They're noisy. (Often not the case with modern structures that have sound barriers.)
• They take up too much space even at the surface level, as support was often provided by two pillars at both ends of the structure. (Modern Els can often fit into road medians.)

Heck, Lechmere is an El. The point is that evaluation of modern Els should be different from that of the BERy and NYC Els, but at least anecdotally, the negative opinions about Els that I've heard of were mostly supported using experiences with the latter.

For 2), comparing it to a subway is self-explanatory. Comparing it to at-grade transit, I'd argue that the at-grade option also has several negative impacts: While an El allows people and wheels to pass underneath (especially in dense neighborhoods with many crossings), a ground-level transit route is either a hard physical barrier that divide the surroundings completely, or gives substandard service due to grade crossings.

Edit: Here are some examples of the kind of Els that I'm talking about.

 

[Charlie_mta]

Here's a thought: build the RLX in a tunnel to just beyond Arlington Center, then surface the rest of the way via Lexington to Rte 128. What to do with the Minuteman Trail? Elevate it above the surface rail line with ped ramps up to it at most existing access points. A lot cheaper than tunneling, and a lot cheaper than elevating RLX over the Minuteman Trail. Also, the noise and visual impacts would be a lot less than elevated rail.

 

[737900er]

Here's a thought: build the RLX in a tunnel to just beyond Arlington Center, then surface the rest of the way via Lexington to Rte 128. What to do with the Minuteman Trail? Elevate it above the surface rail line with ped ramps up to it at most existing access points. A lot cheaper than tunneling, and a lot cheaper than elevating RLX over the Minuteman Trail. Also, the noise and visual impacts would be a lot less than elevated rail.

This makes sense, especially given that it could bridge over all the road crossings.
Something about it scares me though, especially with people flying down the hill across 128

 

[kingofsheeba]

I think it's important to point out that the destination isn't Lexington itself, but instead Route 128 in Lexington. With Route 3 terminating nearby and the huge potential for TOD also nearby at the Burlington Mall/Hartwell Ave, the ridership potential far outweighs Lex on its own. Plus, as NIMBY as Lexington would be, I don't think it can stay that way forever with the MBTA communities law, especially if there is in fact a rapid transit connection.

As far as the tunneling/at-grade debate goes, I think there would need to be some sort of compromise in downtown LEX, with a capped trench running through and at-grade elsewhere on the ROW. Perhaps there could be mitigation with sound walls at various locations. The minuteman trail would have to be rerouted off the ROW in a RL to Lex/Rt 128 universe, I think that much is pretty obvious.

I don’t like it when people read my thoughts regarding the RL/128 extension potential. But if it’s going to come to fruition, I’ll allow it.

Real talk: A short spur from the Route 3 Terminus to a future 128 Burlington Station would be a slam dunk. Would more cars spill out to the back roads of Lexington but, if Lexington breaks the NIMBY mold, that vision of a RLX could be an actual thing.

 

[bakgwailo]

So, although this is maybe pretty off topic at this point, I'd have to agree with others that while I used to be pretty in on the Red out to Lexington/128, I do think the other extensions like the Orange taking Needham over (w/ a GLX to Needham), BLX to Lynne and beyond, GLX out to Medford and/or Porter, etc all should be prioritized over the Red just due to the complications with the ROW and low current population density - the other projects will benefit far more people that exist today.

That said, as others are saying: build it and population density will come. I agree with this, but I would take it even a step more: This could be a perfect extension to try to fund via Tokyo's/JR's/HK's expansion strategy which is to use the TOD around stations to fund line expansions and new stations. Maybe hard due to Arlington and Lexington Zoning, but, could be an interesting experiment to try.

 

[mjbellantoni]

While I think at this point RLX through Arlington would find a lot of support, anything that displaces or changes the bike path will be a complete non-starter here.

Also, Arlington has recently made changes to its zoning which far exceed the changes required by the MBTA Communities legislation. So, the density is coming.

 

[TheRatmeister]

While I think at this point RLX through Arlington would find a lot of support, anything that displaces or changes the bike path will be a complete non-starter here.

Also, Arlington has recently made changes to its zoning which far exceed the changes required by the MBTA Communities legislation. So, the density is coming.

I think everyone is in agreement that any extension to Arlington Heights would be tunneled, but any extension further to Lexington would only make sense if it can be done on the surface somehow.

 

[Teban54]

I think everyone is in agreement that any extension to Arlington Heights would be tunneled

Nope, as @F-Line to Dudley just said:

To Arlington Heights you have zero issue; the ROW is luxuriously wide and you've got the abutting parkland to off-ROW a well-landscaped trail.

He has also repeatedly mentioned in the past that even having 2 tracks and the trail both on surface level side-by-side is feasible until Arlington Heights.

 

[BosMaineiac]

Nope, as @F-Line to Dudley just said:

He has also repeatedly mentioned in the past that even having 2 tracks and the trail both on surface level side-by-side is feasible until Arlington Heights.

Wouldn't you have to build a shallow tunnel from Alewife to Arlington Center, though? Similar construction to the Davis-Alewife stretch.

 

[Vagabond]

"With the permanent closure of Bowdoin station, many have called for the emergency head house west of Government Center to be converted to a regular-use head house.

MBTA senior project manager Shannon Greenwell said the MBTA has no plans to make the conversion.

According to Greenwell, the decision to close Bowdoin was based on both accessibility and ridership. Bowdoin is the only non-accessible station on the Blue line, and has the second lowest ridership with about 1,700 passengers as of early October."

This doesn't seem like a big lift - is it really such a cost blowout to open an existing staircase?

 

[737900er]

"With the permanent closure of Bowdoin station, many have called for the emergency head house west of Government Center to be converted to a regular-use head house.

MBTA senior project manager Shannon Greenwell said the MBTA has no plans to make the conversion.

According to Greenwell, the decision to close Bowdoin was based on both accessibility and ridership. Bowdoin is the only non-accessible station on the Blue line, and has the second lowest ridership with about 1,700 passengers as of early October."

This doesn't seem like a big lift - is it really such a cost blowout to open an existing staircase?

Didn't the Government Center overhaul include plans to reopen that entrance, and then it got cut?