Yeah... I would have expected it to be 5-6 minutes or faster than pre-shutdown (would have to go and add up the times from the slow zones pre-shutdowns), not 12 minutes slower.. that's a +18 minute swing from what it should be. I'll be honest, if the T had come out and just said: hey, we said a week, but, look, we've never really done this large of a replacement before, and with the new rolling stock and other variables we are going to slow roll it longer to make sure trains don't derail and what not I would be fine with it. I think a little bit of humility from the agency would go a long way at this point: they have already proven themselves clueless/incompetent at running a subway system, and might as well own it as they try to figure things out.
MBTA "Transformation" (Green Line, Red Line, & Orange Line Transformation Projects)
- Thread starter Arlington
- Start date
A complete unmitigated disaster is this speed is a new normal. That's arguably semantics, but if these does go away I would feel less angry than if this becomes the thing long-term.
But we don't know, do we? We have our personal observations and TransitMatter data, but the MBTA is not telling us anything we can speculate and it seems we don't have the knowledge to infer it either.
But we don't know, do we? We have our personal observations and TransitMatter data, but the MBTA is not telling us anything we can speculate and it seems we don't have the knowledge to infer it either.
Especially considering the circumstances. Imagine the outrage if I-93 was in a state of disrepair such that you could only traverse sections of it at 10mph. And then the state asked to shut down the entire thing for a month. And then after it re-opened, you could only do 5mph on it. This would never happen for any major road in the US, let alone any semi-developed country.
A bit slow on my reply here, but just wanted to say that I really appreciate all of your responses and analysis, @nbcoram, @bigeman312 and @brattleloop. That is useful data, and yes, I think it does support the ultimate conclusion that the Molasses Orange Line is indeed better than Shuttled Orange Line. Those remaining slow zones (or whatever they actually are -- "increased travel times") on the northern half are really quite remarkable (and not in a good way).
Jeremy Siegel at WGBH has been following the shutdown pretty closely -- you might consider tweeting those analyses to him? (Or if you would prefer and approve, I could pull them together into a blog post and tweet that at him?) Because yes -- the non-riding public in general might not raise an eyebrow at an extra 12 minutes, but the before-and-after analysis is startling and easy-to-understand.
Jeremy Siegel at WGBH has been following the shutdown pretty closely -- you might consider tweeting those analyses to him? (Or if you would prefer and approve, I could pull them together into a blog post and tweet that at him?) Because yes -- the non-riding public in general might not raise an eyebrow at an extra 12 minutes, but the before-and-after analysis is startling and easy-to-understand.
bigeman312
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2012
- Messages
- 2,269
- Reaction score
- 2,093
Good idea. I’ll make a Twitter account and tweet at him. Just to be clear (in the name of pursuing the truth), my 12-minute response to my girlfriend was off-the-cuff, and depending on which benchmark you use, 11 minutes may be more accurate 
Good idea. I’ll make a Twitter account and tweet at him. Just to be clear (in the name of pursuing the truth), my 12-minute response to my girlfriend was off-the-cuff, and depending on which benchmark you use, 11 minutes may be more accurate
Well, according to the slow down dashboard pre-shutdown it was +4-6 minutes extra due to slow zones. As of yesterday it is now +24.92, so.... worse than 12 minutes ? Also never been more impressed/envious of the Blue Line which is hovering around no slow zones.
Feel free to tag me @RRRiverside when you do -- he retweeted my Service Closure maps a couple of times, so he might remember me, and I'd love to voice my support for your analysis (for whatever small amount my voice is worth!).Good idea. I’ll make a Twitter account and tweet at him. Just to be clear (in the name of pursuing the truth), my 12-minute response to my girlfriend was off-the-cuff, and depending on which benchmark you use, 11 minutes may be more accurate
bigeman312
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2012
- Messages
- 2,269
- Reaction score
- 2,093
There are a couple problems with that conclusion.
Problem 1, the primary problem: you are comparing round-trip times while I am talking about single direction times. If you divide the difference in your post by 2, you’ll find it’s very close to the numbers I am claiming. So that’s most of the difference right there.
Problem 2 (a minor one): The slow zone dashboard isn’t as comprehensive/accurate as comparing total trip time. Plug in Forest Hills -> Oak Grove. You’ll see it’s 10-12 minutes longer than pre-shutdown, depending on what you use as a baseline.
Transmatters’ slow zone data is a little bit flawed, but when you drill down to the more basic station-to-station dashboard it becomes more clear.
yes I spend too much time on that website haha.
EDITED TO ADD: I am not claiming that single direction is more useful than round trip data. I am just stating that my girlfriend and I were discussing single-direction times, not round-trip times, which accounts for most of the discrepancy. I hope this helps clear that confusion up!
bigeman312
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2012
- Messages
- 2,269
- Reaction score
- 2,093
Day 12. No further movement on the slow zones that were to last for 5-7 days.
TrolleybusFoaming
New member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2022
- Messages
- 80
- Reaction score
- 164
Took one ride recently, just as slow as always. Did they say that the shutdown would touch the viaduct? Thought it was about Medford work and Government Center Garage work.
Amateur data analysis from the MBTA Performance API shows a benchmark Science Park -> Lechmere of 180 seconds, with trips averaging 116 seconds. Leaving Lechmere the benchmark is 120 seconds, with trips averaging 134 seconds over the past week.
Yep; the initial press release included "Adjustments to the overhead wire on the East Cambridge Viaduct that will eliminate a temporary 10 mph speed restriction, allowing trolleys to operate at the system’s designed speed of 25 mph on a permanent basis."
Building A Better T: GLX Medford Branch to Open in Late November 2022; Shuttle Buses to Replace Green Line Service for Four Weeks between Government Center and Union Square beginning August 22 | News | MBTA
Official website of the MBTA -- schedules, maps, and fare information for Greater Boston's public transportation system, including subway, commuter rail, bus routes, and boat lines.
www.mbta.com
Personally, I'm willing to say that the continued slowdowns are at least partially related to the fact that the FTA will be back on site by 10/17 to "validate track work," presumably, primarily that done during the shutdown. I would presume that the T is taking absolutely no risks before that assessment, and to "preserve" the work done insomuch as possible.
nbcoram
New member
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2022
- Messages
- 96
- Reaction score
- 502
If this is the case, they should be upfront and honest with the public about it. Unfortunately, as everyone here knows, being upfront and honest with the public is not the MBTA's strong suit, to put it nicely.
Presumably very few members of the public watch the BoD meetings. Important info that could affect service like that shouldn't be relegated to a BoD meeting.
Not a ton of progress this week on the slow zones. As @bigeman312 noted, comparing round trip time between the termini stations (or really any station pairing) is slightly more accurate, but for the purposes of this note, the TM slow zone tracker communicates the idea fine.
Including no real progress between Assembly and North Station southbound:
Heading northbound, the median travel time between North Station and Assembly did drop by over 3.5 minutes this morning but it's still about 5 minutes above where it should be (prior to the summer slow zones, the median travel times were generally between 5.7 and 5.9 minutes):
ah, yeah, one way makes sense. Although one way or round trip - it is still horribly slow, although makes sense the drill down tool is a bit more accurate (although will say the slow tracker for the entire line isn't far off).
So... adding on to the it should be faster than the previous times (with the slow zones eliminated that they set out to fix in the first place) - they should in fact be even faster than the old base line with no slow zones, right? I would expect it be faster running the all new rolling stock that can accelerate and brake better, and with the all new rolling stock also decreasing dwell times significantly...
nbcoram
New member
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2022
- Messages
- 96
- Reaction score
- 502
In the BSRA meeting tonight they said that there is still tie and track work north of North Station left (Sullivan-Community College was cited specifically but Assembly-Sullivan and CC-North Station are still very slow too) that is being completed overnight.
So yeah, the MBTA is lying to the public's face.
Relatedly, this is likely more appropriate for the new car thread so I'll keep it brief, but they also said that there have been no new Orange Line CRRC deliveries since June; they will need to exceed their goal of 4 cars/month and get to 8 cars/month delivered to meet the goal of completing deliveries by next summer. They also said that we should expect at least some Hawkers to operate, mainly during rush hour, once an increased winter schedule takes effect in ~December.
So yeah, the MBTA is lying to the public's face.
Relatedly, this is likely more appropriate for the new car thread so I'll keep it brief, but they also said that there have been no new Orange Line CRRC deliveries since June; they will need to exceed their goal of 4 cars/month and get to 8 cars/month delivered to meet the goal of completing deliveries by next summer. They also said that we should expect at least some Hawkers to operate, mainly during rush hour, once an increased winter schedule takes effect in ~December.
I can't believe they think this solution is better than doing a weekend shutdown or two. Isn't the number of ties they can replace every night fewer than 10?
F-Line to Dudley
Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2010
- Messages
- 9,261
- Reaction score
- 9,269
You can see for yourself how little progress they made by looking out the window and noting how many ties are marked with spraypainted X's still for replacement.
nbcoram
New member
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2022
- Messages
- 96
- Reaction score
- 502
Something like that; I don't remember the precise number.
What makes me angry is the way they have just been lying through their teeth about all this. The fact that the work was incomplete shouldn't be something that comes out in a BSRA meeting. Obviously the shutdown was never supposed to be a cure-all, but the travel times should NOT be higher than pre-shutdown, certainly not 14 days after the shutdown ended.
What an embarrassment.
I'll have to look at other stretches of the line to see which slow zones outside of the big northern one remain.
And imagine the public response to even a partial weekend shutdown. There would be so much trust lost amongst the public.
If they're doing nightly tie replacement it makes sense that there's a speed restriction. That's standard practice.