MBTA "Transformation" (Green Line, Red Line, & Orange Line Transformation Projects)

RandomWalk said:
It’s not like the catenary even lines up with the trough on the curves any longer.
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Is this trough a common cause of delays or “catenary issues” that cause disabled trains? I just have not even heard of it as a problem before today so it’s surprising a 15 day shutdown is warranted with that as the focus. Is it higher priority than GLTPS or would they have needed 15 days for signals regardless?
 
Badusername said:
Is this trough a common cause of delays or “catenary issues” that cause disabled trains? I just have not even heard of it as a problem before today so it’s surprising a 15 day shutdown is warranted with that as the focus. Is it higher priority than GLTPS or would they have needed 15 days for signals regardless?
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I think to be perfectly fair we do see general caternary issues causing issues in the green line tunnel. I think Eng has been taking stock of a lot of the system and the (150 year old) deferred maintenance some of it needs and its fair to say his guys think this is necessary.

I do think you are right that the real reason is probably GLTPS but the headline is leading with the trough thing since that sells it better to the public.
 
RandomWalk said:
It’s not like the catenary even lines up with the trough on the curves any longer.
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I would think it doesn't line up all over the place, not just in curves. A feature of catenary is that it zigs above the pantograph. I suspect it hasn't aligned with the trough since the day they transitioned from trolley wire.
 
Badusername said:
Is this trough a common cause of delays or “catenary issues” that cause disabled trains? I just have not even heard of it as a problem before today so it’s surprising a 15 day shutdown is warranted with that as the focus. Is it higher priority than GLTPS or would they have needed 15 days for signals regardless?
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It's been listed as far back as at least 2010 as a project necessary for achieving a "state of good repair" - https://www.ctps.org/mbta-pmt (Appendix H, page H-2).

So while I entirely agree that I've never seen a word mentioned about it before (nor can I find anything about the bidding) it has at least been on the general list of things needing replacement for a long time.

For actually doing it, it suddenly popped onto the latest CIP with money immediately allocated this year, so I do wonder if they either came into some funding for it or found something that moved it up the priority list.
 
Via Wikimedia Commons, here's a photo of Park Street in 1898, with the wire trough visible. The photographer is standing slightly behind the spot where the MBTA's press photo was taken, looking in the same direction.
1763565340323.png


(Side note: what's with that crossover? There's a pole in the middle making it impassable, and while there's a trough above it, there's no wire in it.)

And here's a higher-quality image from Boylston on August 30, 1897, two days before the subway opened, also showing the trough:
1763565853508.png
 
www.wbur.org

The Orange Line has gotten so much better it has a new problem: Traffic

An "unintended consequence" of all the recent improvements, Orange Line trains are now running into delays due to congestion at the end of the line. However, the MBTA has a plan to ease the issue. Meet the "dropback."
www.wbur.org www.wbur.org
  • The problem: The issue began last spring and intensified in August when they started running Orange Line trains up to 55 mph north of Boston, Habershaw said. During peak hours, trains arriving at Oak Grove and Forest Hills were coming in so hot on the heels of the previous trains that neither side of the platform was free. So they had to stop and wait, often erasing the gains of all the improvements. According to Habershaw, one in every 10 trains arriving into Oak Grove saw about an eight-minute delay as a result. "Anyone who's heard that we're standing by for a schedule adjustment, that is because there isn't another location for the entering train to arrive," she said.
  • The solution: While the T was able to ease the issue a little this fall via schedule tweaks, they began testing out other ideas. Enter "the dropback." Typically, when an Orange Line train reaches the end of the line, the driver has to walk to the other end of the train to drive back out in the other direction. To speed up the turnaround, the dropback adds another driver into the rotation. Now, when a train reaches its terminus, there's another driver waiting to hop on and drive it out, while the current driver gets out and "drops back" to the next train. (If you, like some MBTA board members, find it confusing, just watch this animation.)
  • Now what? Habershaw said the dropbacks will be implemented at Oak Grove when the new winter schedule takes effect on Dec. 15. She estimates it will save an additional two minutes. "It seems small ... but if you think about the folks that are on that train, that means making a bus connection or not," she said. "It can be precious minutes." Habershaw said there's an added benefit of giving train drivers an informal break  to stretch their legs, use the restroom or simply reset before getting back in the train cab. "Not everything that we do needs to be a big, expensive capital [project], like new trains and all that stuff," Habershaw said. "We can tweak these operational things and have some really good payoff."
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Hey, I invented the dropback! (Obviously, not the first to do so, and not under that name.) One time when they were turning Red Line trains at Park Street, I observed that the trains just sat there for a few minutes while the operator walked to the other end, and wondered why they don't stagger them so each operator waited for the next train at the outbound end and immediately drove off with it.
 
bigeman312 said:
This is the kind of solution that shows incredible leadership. #EngForPresident
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I'm pretty sure this isn't how the red line operates. Having observed a few turnarounds at Alewife, seems like the same operator walks to the other end to operate the same train southbound. How come other lines don't have this problem? Won't the red line have the same issue once we have the (promised) 3-min headways at peak?
 
While I know that photography wasn't exactly uncommon in the late 1890's, it's still kind of amazing and impressive that @alewife was able to find a photograph of a random piece of infrastructure from 128 years ago!
 
sneijder said:
I'm pretty sure this isn't how the red line operates. Having observed a few turnarounds at Alewife, seems like the same operator walks to the other end to operate the same train southbound. How come other lines don't have this problem? Won't the red line have the same issue once we have the (promised) 3-min headways at peak?
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They mentioned this a bit during the board meeting, but the idea was to start with the Orange Line to avoid any complexity with branching on the Red Line. This is likely due to ensuring operators end up at the station they started at, but there wasn't any additional explanation.
 
BeansTheCat said:
They mentioned this a bit during the board meeting, but the idea was to start with the Orange Line to avoid any complexity with branching on the Red Line. This is likely due to ensuring operators end up at the station they started at, but there wasn't any additional explanation.
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I'd also think it's more apparent on the Orange now that has more rolling stock than before, no slow zones, and no branches, higher speed running: I'd think this would only be an issue on the Red at Alewife, but the split head-ways with current conditions at Ashmont and Braintree would make it not as needed. I'd wager the Orange Line will be super interesting once the signal system upgrade is done and full rolling stock order done: with Eng's focus on track/eliminating slow zones and other state of good repair improvements, I could see it rivaling the Blue line as the top, provided the CRRC trains hold up. With all done I thin the theoretical max from rolling stock was headways of 4-4.5 minutes on the line which maybe could be reduced during rush hour.
 
themissinglink said:
www.wbur.org

The Orange Line has gotten so much better it has a new problem: Traffic

An "unintended consequence" of all the recent improvements, Orange Line trains are now running into delays due to congestion at the end of the line. However, the MBTA has a plan to ease the issue. Meet the "dropback."
www.wbur.org www.wbur.org
Click to expand...
FTA said:
To speed up the turnaround, the dropback adds another driver into the rotation. Now, when a train reaches its terminus, there's another driver waiting to hop on and drive it out, while the current driver gets out and "drops back" to the next train.
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The strange thing about this statement, is that they were already doing this several years ago. It's not a new idea, nor is it operationally new for the T to do this. I guess they must have stopped at some point, so I'm glad it's coming back at least.
 
I have a question about schedule adjustments on the Green Line, specifically schedule adjustments that change the end destination of a train that is already underway with passengers.

Three times over the Thanksgiving weekend I had Green Line trains make schedule changes while underway, resulting in lots of passengers needing to unexpectedly change trains.

Twice inbound trains labeled Government Center changed to a Park destination, in both cases quite late in the run (after departing Arlington).
Once outbound C and D trains swapped destinations at Hynes. Virtually everyone on board both trains had to swap trains.

Do other metros do this kind of destination change when trains are underway? I thought most attempted to predict this kind of service adjustment need, and set the destination correctly before picking up passengers. In all of the cases the delay was pretty minor, but still annoying. Also communication was so poor (garbled shouts of "T speak") that several passengers were caught on the wrong train, particularly after the C/D swap.
 
The Green Line has a lot of variability and unreliability due to the operating environment, especially in the on-street segments. Short-turns are used to get delayed trains back on schedule and having B/C trains bound for Government Center short-turn at Park is common, especially because it's short-turning only one stop short.

Train swaps are much less common, but they do happen. I'm not sure of all the reasons for it, but in your case it was most likely because the train that was an originally a C train had some kind of issue (but not significant enough that they had to pull the train from service right away) and they wanted to send it to the shops at Riverside for repair.
 
JeffDowntown said:
I have a question about schedule adjustments on the Green Line, specifically schedule adjustments that change the end destination of a train that is already underway with passengers.

Three times over the Thanksgiving weekend I had Green Line trains make schedule changes while underway, resulting in lots of passengers needing to unexpectedly change trains.

Twice inbound trains labeled Government Center changed to a Park destination, in both cases quite late in the run (after departing Arlington).
Once outbound C and D trains swapped destinations at Hynes. Virtually everyone on board both trains had to swap trains.

Do other metros do this kind of destination change when trains are underway? I thought most attempted to predict this kind of service adjustment need, and set the destination correctly before picking up passengers. In all of the cases the delay was pretty minor, but still annoying. Also communication was so poor (garbled shouts of "T speak") that several passengers were caught on the wrong train, particularly after the C/D swap.
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For added context, based on my pull from the T's LREvents data (which is a disaster, still need to write this up somewhere), in October 2025 13% of weekday B trips terminated at Park St and 9% of C trips of weekday B trips terminated at Park St. It's something that happens routinely and anyone who gets transfers from the Blue Line or boards at Government Center and wants to go to Beacon/Comm Ave west of Kenmore knows to just take the first westbound train and transfer.
 
737900er said:
For added context, based on my pull from the T's LREvents data (which is a disaster, still need to write this up somewhere), in October 2025 13% of weekday B trips terminated at Park St and 9% of C trips of weekday B trips terminated at Park St. It's something that happens routinely and anyone who gets transfers from the Blue Line or boards at Government Center and wants to go to Beacon/Comm Ave west of Kenmore knows to just take the first westbound train and transfer.
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But my point is the bait and switch of changing the destination on a train while it is in service with passengers. And as I indicated I was headed inbound on the C train that change from Government Center to Park as a destination after Arlington.

That is the kind of call a competent scheduling operation would make BEFORE the train departs Cleveland Circle, not in while in transit.

And lots of the people who get transfers from Blue to Green at Government Center don't know this quirk because they are visitors arriving from the Airport. Operations of a competent transit system don't require passengers to have intimate knowledge of unsigned, unannounced quirks. That is just crap we tolerate here in Boston because the T has always been run that way.
 
JeffDowntown said:
But my point is the bait and switch of changing the destination on a train while it is in service with passengers. And as I indicated I was headed inbound on the C train that change from Government Center to Park as a destination after Arlington.

That is the kind of call a competent scheduling operation would make BEFORE the train departs Cleveland Circle, not in while in transit.
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I wouldn't be so sure. Usually a short turn is for a train that leaves Cleveland Circle (or BC) on time, but due to surface running unpredictability, the train is late by the time it reaches Kenmore. Maybe they could have made the decision before Arlington (or announced if the decision were made earlier), but I suspect the intention at Cleveland Circle was to run per schedule and as indicated on the sign.
 
HenryAlan said:
I wouldn't be so sure. Usually a short turn is for a train that leaves Cleveland Circle (or BC) on time, but due to surface running unpredictability, the train is late by the time it reaches Kenmore. Maybe they could have made the decision before Arlington (or announced if the decision were made earlier), but I suspect the intention at Cleveland Circle was to run per schedule and as indicated on the sign.
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There are planned strange trips, but they're typically signed for what they're actually doing for the whole trip (eg, I was recently on a Union Sq-Reservoir train which was signed "Reservoir" the whole trip). As far as I'm aware, Park Street turns aren't typically planned in advance. I think the old P/G/N light at Boylston Inbound is still there, so finding out at Arlington is better than it used to be. Dispatch does it when the actual headway gets too big, but as mentioned above it can result in very long times between trains at Government Center as the trip effectively gets dropped for passengers originating there.
It's just like the "Express" practice which is also a product of high variability operations on the B/C/E.
 
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