Missing HSR Corridor Designations

Nexis4jersey said:
The Quebec Dream is boondoggle of itself , connecting New Hampshire and Maine to New York and DC via a one seat ride is a huge economic boost and through Running the T would fix traffic congestion throughout the region. Its well worth the cost , your region is broken transit wise this would fix some of it...
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I'm just using it as an example... I don't think Quebec City is worth the investment at all. I just can't see a N/S rail link project being worth it to connect New York and DC to Maine and NH alone.

Do you really think that connecting in Boston (with a direct light rail line from South to North Station) as opposed to a non-stop ride would deter that many people from taking rail to Maine or NH? And what about when they get there? Outside of downtown Portland, is there really much one can do without a car? If they're coming up from D.C. or NYC, it's certainly not a day trip.

I consider Maine and NH to be a lot like Cape Cod. Most visitors to Maine and NH are going to choose to drive because they're family vacation spots and you need a car to see most of the sites. I can't imagine packing my family in New Jersey into a car to drive to the Amtrak station that's closest, loading all of the luggage and kids onto a train and heading to Maine for a long weekend. Maine's close enough to DC or NY that driving is almost as cost effective and certainly more convenient. And unlike Cape Cod, attractions in Maine and NH are much further spread out so connecting them via bus is almost impossible.

Of course, I reserve final judgment for when I see a price tag. If it's even remotely reasonable it'll be worth it. However, I can't see it being less than a few Billion in which case a light rail line connecting the two stations is a far better alternative.
 
Semass said:
I find the Vineyard bus system to be excellent. A great example just a couple miles away.
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Definitely. Nantucket's isn't bad either. Like Bar Harbor, they only have to cover a small area which makes it easier to run.
 
Lrfox said:
Am I missing something with the N/S rail link? I feel like it would be an awful waste of money. There's one intercity line leaving from North Station and it serves small communities in Southern NH, and a sparsely settled metro area with 500,000 people spread out over a land area double the size of the state of Rhode Island (I'm including the extension to Brunswick in that figure). I've yet to see an estimate for a N/S rail link but assuming you'd have to tunnel under the existing tunnels and other infrastructure, I can only imagine the price tag would be in the billions.

Unless there are plans to make the existing Downeaster line fully HSR and extend it to Quebec City while adding a high speed Montreal line out of North Station, I can only imagine a much better solution would be to run light rail along the RKG between N/S station.
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Yeah, you're missing something hugely important here.

Without the NS Rail Link, the ONLY way to move equipment between the northside and southside ROWs is over the (loud, slow, grade-crossing heavy) Grand Junction. Naturally, this does not happen often - but it happens just enough to mean the Grand Junction is off-limits for any kind of development (like the Urban Ring, or a northside Green Line branch.)

We have two southside yards and one northside yard. They're all jammed to capacity - that's why we've got empty Commuter trains wasting platform space. There's nowhere to go.

We're not really building the NS Link because there's some huge outcry of demand for a one seat ride from Rockport to Readville, and in fact, I wouldn't put it past the MBTA to charge everyone on the train twice. We're building it so that we don't end up with a 32-platform stub end South Station that's STILL plagued by capacity problems (since 16 of those platforms have empty trains sitting on them.) Boston - Cape Cod via the Downeaster, or Manchester - Philadelphia Regionals (MHT - PHL is a HUGE air travel market), are both bonuses.
 
Commuting Boston Student said:
Yeah, you're missing something hugely important here.

Without the NS Rail Link, the ONLY way to move equipment between the northside and southside ROWs is over the (loud, slow, grade-crossing heavy) Grand Junction. Naturally, this does not happen often - but it happens just enough to mean the Grand Junction is off-limits for any kind of development (like the Urban Ring, or a northside Green Line branch.)

We have two southside yards and one northside yard. They're all jammed to capacity - that's why we've got empty Commuter trains wasting platform space. There's nowhere to go.

We're not really building the NS Link because there's some huge outcry of demand for a one seat ride from Rockport to Readville, and in fact, I wouldn't put it past the MBTA to charge everyone on the train twice. We're building it so that we don't end up with a 32-platform stub end South Station that's STILL plagued by capacity problems (since 16 of those platforms have empty trains sitting on them.) Boston - Cape Cod via the Downeaster, or Manchester - Philadelphia Regionals (MHT - PHL is a HUGE air travel market), are both bonuses.
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Now in that case, I could support it. There's very little that could convince me it's worth billions to just to connect DC/NYC to Maine and New Hampshire by rail. But if it made the local network function more efficiently and open up other local transit possibilities, then I could see it being worthwhile.

MHT- PHL is a huge travel market in large part due to the fact that PHL is a USAirways hub. Same with BWI (which has its own Amtrak stop) and Southwest (MHT's two top destinations). I don't think that would necessarily translate to rail travel.
 
NSRL would help with operations. But I also think you would see a rise in demand from cross-city commuting trips, if it existed. It's hard to say right now because there is no option, so those trips don't happen on the CR, only on the subway. At least, just getting from the north side to South Station would be a big deal, we can tell from passenger surveys.
 
Matthew said:
NSRL would help with operations. But I also think you would see a rise in demand from cross-city commuting trips, if it existed. It's hard to say right now because there is no option, so those trips don't happen on the CR, only on the subway. At least, just getting from the north side to South Station would be a big deal, we can tell from passenger surveys.
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It depends on what you consider 'cross-city,' really.

I can certainly see the trip through the link itself being insanely heavily patronized, as well as perhaps NS-Fairmount Line (or Fairmount to Porter, NS, Malden, West Medford.)

Anything that's solidly outside of Zone 1A, though, I'm not seeing.
 
I think people forget that the concept of the North/South Rail Link is predicated on the services that use it not sucking. The problem lies in the fact that T trains will use it. The reason for the NSRL, as I understand it, is not really to benefit Amtrak but to allow the commuter trains to run through Boston instead of stopping. In theory, this is a good as trains would go from end to end on a line and not clog up the downtown stations.
In practice, this would be a disaster. Each small delay would be magnified over longer distances. A train running 30 mins. late from Fitchburg to North Station has no impact on southside operations. However, if that same train is supposed to continue to Kingston, the delay will continue to snowball as the runs are longer.
 
Semass said:
I think people forget that the concept of the North/South Rail Link is predicated on the services that use it not sucking. The problem lies in the fact that T trains will use it. The reason for the NSRL, as I understand it, is not really to benefit Amtrak but to allow the commuter trains to run through Boston instead of stopping. In theory, this is a good as trains would go from end to end on a line and not clog up the downtown stations.
In practice, this would be a disaster. Each small delay would be magnified over longer distances. A train running 30 mins. late from Fitchburg to North Station has no impact on southside operations. However, if that same train is supposed to continue to Kingston, the delay will continue to snowball as the runs are longer.
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Septa through runs without any major issues , despite have daily delays across the system. It depends on how many trains per hour and how many tracks and capacity... Septa runs every 5-15 during rush hour and 20-35 mins off peak. In both directions , with 4 tracks in the Center city Tunnel...so a delay can be absorbed by the next train.
 
Matthew said:
The T's number one enemy is: the T.
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You mean New Englanders are their number one enemy they seem to NIMBY or whine about everything which I find strange since there pretty progressive in the social dept...
 
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You know it's bad when we start reaching for Amtrak with adjectives like "competent."

On the topic of tertiary links, I just found this: http://www.berkshireeagle.com/ci_21605606/plan-conn-rail-line-could-be-boon-berkshires
Here’s where the idea could affect the Berkshires. The Housatonic Railroad Co. is exploring the idea of restoring passenger rail service between Danbury and Pittsfield. If that service is restored, and Amtrak is able to build its new high speed rail line, Berkshire County passengers would be able to connect directly to high-speed rail in Danbury, instead of taking Metro North trains from that southwestern Connecticut city to New York City.
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Matthew said:
You know it's bad when we start reaching for Amtrak with adjectives like "competent."

On the topic of tertiary links, I just found this: http://www.berkshireeagle.com/ci_21605606/plan-conn-rail-line-could-be-boon-berkshires
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DO NOT WANT.

Housatonic RR is a bunch of charlatans. CT and MA pulled all their TIGER grant applications concerning the Berkshire Line out of fear that Housatonic would just pocket the money. They are over $100M in the hole on maintenance of that line and have refused to fix bad grade crossings on the portion that CTDOT owns and the operator is obligated to maintain. They booted Berkshire Scenic RR off their tracks this summer and prompted a Surface Transportation Board filing and threats of a libel suit from BSRR for some of the unfounded allegations their V.P.'s have chucked about that Berkshire's running an unsafe operation (working theory by those in-the-know: Housy's own track condition is what's unsafe, so they're creating a diversion by blaming Berkshire instead). They had another tense STB confrontation and threatened lawsuit from P&W over track in central CT that Housy owns and P&W has co-rights to where they refused to maintain it in operable condition. They've fought constantly with Metro North over the years over non-revenue track MNRR shares with them, arbitrarily revoking rights of individual engineers to operate on their track on Internet Tough Guy spat over RR.net posts (!), yet keep pimping in the press this fantasy proposal for a Danbury-Brewster shuttle using MNRR stations on each end...without consulting a very nonplussed MNRR.

They only have 2 locomotives that still work. Because they won't repair their fleet. All-volunteer Berkshire Scenic used to do it for them, but then they shat all over 'em.

And they are nearly bankrupt, having pissed away most of their business and getting their license to operate a lucrative trash transload in Danbury revoked last year. Nobody knows just how much in debt they are because there's only a few private shareholders, and everyone is afraid the investors are gaming to scuttle the operation, sell the RR for scrap, pull out all their money, and scram leaving CT and MA with tens of millions in mess to clean up and auditions for a new operator to take over that corridor lest the collateral damage does more harm to the meager manufacturing economy in the Housatonic Valley and Berkshires.


They're crooks. They don't have the means of operating anything passenger. They just want to line their pockets with public money before the jig is up.

DO NOT WANT.
 
The state should take over the tracks as a matter of safety and regional improvements...
 
Yeah there were some oddities in that article. I didn't know anything about the company, I literally received that article today out-of-the-blue from my Dad, who for some reason thought I should see it. (and by received it I mean, it showed up printed out as a snail-mail letter, because he doesn't believe in e-mailing links, or electronic cut-and-paste).
 
Nexis4jersey said:
The state should take over the tracks as a matter of safety and regional improvements...
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It might come to that, but there isn't any legal precedent for purely pre-emptive eminent domain on a private RR ROW. Not when there's no public project existing or proposed to do anything more with it. The Supreme Court has reaffirmed it for protection of existing Amtrak passenger routes, but not prospective routes with no extant passenger rights. And there'd have to be an interstate commerce protection danger to intervene for freight. There isn't a strong case for that with only trace local business remaining and CSX still interchanging with them in Pittsfield. If they fuck up transporting the goods...well, the free market, lawyers, and the STB complaint board will settle that. But it's not cause for seizure of private assets and privately-run service. The only track where there is a case is the disputed segment shared with P&W from Danbury-Derby or the emergency non-revenue access Metro North has Danbury-Brewster...but that's the Maybrook/Beacon Line, not the Berkshire Line. CTDOT's contract with Housatonic for trackage rights doesn't have a strong revokability clause, and if they boot the RR off their track that only serves to sever the middle third of the Berkshire Line from the privately-owned ends. Which launches doomsday all the same.

Their best bet is to box Housy in with pressure, then make an offer they can't refuse. CTDOT first for the Danbury-New Milford track so there's something contiguous. Then MassDOT for state line to Pittsfield. And if the cleanup gets toxic, simply pay them to go away. MassDOT unfortunately just doesn't have a lot to gain from this other than a good-faith effort to protect Berkshire Scenic from getting squashed. They'd buy it up if it preserved the CSX interchange for the next carrier, kept the corridor intact, and kept the peace...but it's so many miles through such a desolate part of the state that they really don't have any reason to want it. CTDOT at least has medium-large P&W, existing state-owned track, and Metro North (non-revenue access + the proposed New Milford extension of the Danbury Line) to placate. But everyone's going to be writing off losses stabilizing that situation.
 
Sorry to backtrack on a tangent for a second but to reference this:
F-Line to Dudley said:
No one would ever reactivate that line for commuter rail. It spends most of its time in the forest with few abutters and only a handful of nearby streets before it dead-ends in downtown Merrimac. State doesn't even own it...it reverted to town control after abandonment. I think there were only 1 or 2 customers at each end of the line because of how buffered it is from property lines. Only 6300 people live in Merrimac...that's in the middle of the big population cavity west of 95 through the forest between Middleton and the state line.


Amesbury wasn't served by that branch. There was another stub line that forked off the now-abandoned section of the Eastern Route in Salisbury. Newburyport's an easy drive from there so there'd be no demand even if the Eastern Route were restored to Seabrook or points further. And that branch also reverted to town control after B&M abandoned it.
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I would never think these places would be viable as extensions on their own accord. However if the T ever got its act together and started running local/express trains these small stub end towns could be a good end for the locals. For instance express starting in Portsmouth and Local starting in Amesbury.

Also if Farmer Joe of Merrimac decided to sell his land super cheap to the T for a layover yard, I'm sure the town would get a railroad stop as a consolidation prize.
 
Lrfox said:
The Boston to P-Town ferry is different. It drops passengers off right in the middle of one the few really walkable communities on Cape Cod. There are pedicabs and bike rentals left and right as well. Most of the beaches around P-Town are public (which isn't the case in a lot of the Cape) so they're accessible by bike or foot from the town center too. I don't think too many Boston- P.Town riders are going much beyond P-Town.

Hyannis, Chatham and Falmouth have walkable town centers and you have tiny village centers in Orleans, Woods Hole, Falmouth and Sandwich that are somewhat walkable too. The issue is rail access to all of those places. Lots of Cape Cod's rail is now bike path. Hyannis has rail near the town center, but I don't know how much use it would be for Commuter Rail or Intercity Rail. Falmouth's ROW is now a bike trail (good luck converting that) and There's nothing near Chatham.

Then there's simply the novelty of a boat ride to the Cape in the summer. Get on a boat at Rowes Wharf and in 90 minutes you're in the center of the town at the tip of the Cape. Compare that to rail where you'll pass through scenic Stoughton, Taunton, Middleborough, etc. to get off at a station where you're likely to have to transfer to a bus to get to the town center you want to get to.
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Ditto all of this.

Once you're down the Cape, there's just no good way to get around without a car. That's not gonna change. There's lots of nice little town centers, but the train wouldn't go to most of them. The type of people who go to the Cape wouldn't be the type to transfer to a bus from a train. And since it's ripe for high-speed ferry service, and ferrys are quite cheap to operate, why bother with a train?
 
Why are you so anti Rail for the cape? What about the people inland like along the 195 corridor or south of Boston? A Train is a better option for them....put bike lanes on your streets , add sidewalks to all roads.. We did it along the Jersey Shore , as well as added more Rail services and people took full advantage of the bike lanes and sidewalks... Of course were not done yet , still 14 towns that will receive Rail service , all major roads are being redone with sidewalks , bike lanes... And there's also an Investment side of it , at least 3 billion poured into the Jersey shore since they started doing this back in 2004... Same has happened on Long Island , Auto Centric Long Beach has been transformed into a biking paradise and has a bike sharing program. Theres no reason the Cape Can't follow suit...


Ocean Avenue - Deal,New Jersey by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


LIRR Long Beach Terminal by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


NY 878 Southbound - Lawrence - New York by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr
 
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