Missing HSR Corridor Designations

Huh??? Now we're including the Conway Branch too? That's a total gobbledygook routing that involves coordination with a second private track owner and freight carrier, and two right-angle turns at the junctions for a Z-formation route way more inefficient than NH 16. All to hit a few more towns with painfully lower population than any shot off the Haverhill Line...and still with no big city terminus.


You're right. I wouldn't call this Transit OCD. I'd call it Super-duper Transit OCD. Every study wasted on one of these is resources diverted from building something more important sooner.

I'd be genuinely interested to know who owns that branch and why, since it dead-ends into a rail trail which itself deadends in Wolfeboro. If NOT a Rochester passenger service, what IS that branch good for?

And would keeping it on the Downeaster Corridor to terminate at Wells or Saco be any better?
 
I'd be genuinely interested to know who owns that branch and why, since it dead-ends into a rail trail which itself deadends in Wolfeboro. If NOT a Rochester passenger service, what IS that branch good for?

And would keeping it on the Downeaster Corridor to terminate at Wells or Saco be any better?

It's owned by the New Hampshire Northcoast shortline. They serve all of the sand quarries that supply Boston Sand & Gravel's cement-mixing operation (Pan Am's single largest Southern New England customer). Train starts in Ossippee late morning at the first quarry, fills up at several stops, NHN crew changes over to the Pan Am crew in Dover, then the same train proceeds straight to North Station and back again with empties the next morning. 6 days a week. Vital link in the regional supply chain. That track is the lifeline of one of the very last remnants of heavy industry still booming smack dab in downtown Boston.


No...there is no Portsmouth configuration whatsoever that has a population anchor to support anything other than Boston on the other end. Maybe Portland-Portsmouth, but now you're talking a MEDOT-run service and there's very little additional revenue in it for them with the extra NH running miles to deviate off the Western Route at all with their equipment. If they had a homegrown commuter rail they'd be stopping across the state line at Dover and that's it...and probably not until continuing service Boston-Dover is being run again on the pre-'65 service pattern for the extra transfer revenue in Dover.
 
It's owned by the New Hampshire Northcoast shortline. They serve all of the sand quarries that supply Boston Sand & Gravel's cement-mixing operation (Pan Am's single largest Southern New England customer). Train starts in Ossippee late morning at the first quarry, fills up at several stops, NHN crew changes over to the Pan Am crew in Dover, then the same train proceeds straight to North Station and back again with empties the next morning. 6 days a week. Vital link in the regional supply chain. That track is the lifeline of one of the very last remnants of heavy industry still booming smack dab in downtown Boston.


No...there is no Portsmouth configuration whatsoever that has a population anchor to support anything other than Boston on the other end. Maybe Portland-Portsmouth, but now you're talking a MEDOT-run service and there's very little additional revenue in it for them with the extra NH running miles to deviate off the Western Route at all with their equipment. If they had a homegrown commuter rail they'd be stopping across the state line at Dover and that's it...and probably not until continuing service Boston-Dover is being run again on the pre-'65 service pattern for the extra transfer revenue in Dover.

So what you're saying is, there's absolutely no way to connect UNH to Portsmouth, except by perhaps a shuttle bus?

Man, that's tragic...

I don't even think a ME commuter rail would go to Dover. They'll run it to Wells and stop there because the extra revenue out of Dover isn't going to cover what it will cost them to run it out to Dover, and really, where else are you going to end the train? South Berwick?
 
So what you're saying is, there's absolutely no way to connect UNH to Portsmouth, except by perhaps a shuttle bus?

Man, that's tragic...

There isn't even a historical ROW that'll do that.

Look how chewed up NH's rail network is: http://www.nh.gov/dot/org/aerorailtransit/railandtransit/documents/RailRoad_by_Owner_State_2011.pdf.

The only 2 cross-state routes are total freight flyover country between Maine-Massachusetts on the Western Route and Maine-Vermont on the St. Lawrence & Atlantic. That sliver clipped by the Vermonter is likewise flyover country despite the 1 in-state passenger stop (Amtrak-floated, because the state won't pay). West/VT border, Central, East/Seacoast, and North regions are entirely disconnected from each other. Nothing goes anywhere near Keene anymore. All of that mileage north of Concord only hosts an in-season tourist RR from Lanconia-north and a once-a-month freight...and is shut down every winter as a snowmobile trail over the tracks. About half those branch miles up north between the SL&A main and Conway are other seasonal tourist RR's. That line due west of Nashua pretty much only exists because a state legislator happens to own the shortline that runs on it and (*cough*) has an uncanny knack for finding public money no other operator can seem to score.


Compare with Maine which has thick density around Portland and heavily-used N/S/E/W border crossings: http://www.maine.gov/mdot/utilities/pdf/railmap.pdf.

...or Vermont, where literally everything except a couple tiny stubs is connected to each other or crosses a border: http://railroads.vermont.gov/images/AOT-PLN-Rail_railnetwork.GIF


Yeah. Third-world New England.
 
I take it back, tragic was a massive understatement.

Although, that abandoned ROW hugging Lake Winnipesaukee would look so promising if I didn't know the Lakes Region better.
 
FWIW, I stayed overnight in a hotel on Railroad St in Keene, NH a few months ago, but was disappointed to find nothing nearby. Looks like its been trailed.
 
What intercity route would possibly go to the South Coast? None. Ever. That's why it doesn't belong. It's a state commuter rail project. I could see a revival of the Cape Codder being tacked on as "other" service...but Cape is not South Coast is it?

Not to dig this back up for no reason, but the Old Colony Lines really are complete crap and assuming the Savin Hill - JFK/UMass nightmare never gets fixed, I could see the case being made for Cape Cod via Taunton.

Of course, as I understand it, 'to Taunton' is the extension that's most likely to actually happen because it's not completely useless, even factoring in the jerks in Raynham and Easton.
 
Via Taunton would be for Amtrak coming from New York and Commuter rail from Providence...
 
Via Taunton would be for Amtrak coming from New York and Commuter rail from Providence...

Amtrak coming in on the Downeaster out of the N/S Rail Link, rolls over the Fairmount Line, through 128 and down to Canton Junction, over the Stoughton Branch, South Coast FAIL to Taunton and on to Middleboro/Lakeville.

I don't see Boston - Cape Cod intercity happening any way other than a Downeaster Extension. Absent my own neurotic problems with reversing direction trains, South Station is way too much of a limited-organization chaotic mess even without trains coming in on, say, the Worcester Line, screwing around with a backup across 8+ tracks to get to the Old Colony Lines.
 
Not to dig this back up for no reason, but the Old Colony Lines really are complete crap and assuming the Savin Hill - JFK/UMass nightmare never gets fixed, I could see the case being made for Cape Cod via Taunton.

Of course, as I understand it, 'to Taunton' is the extension that's most likely to actually happen because it's not completely useless, even factoring in the jerks in Raynham and Easton.

Oh yes, absolutely. The Stoughton main would have to be fully double-tracked to support a branch (actually, it has to be to support any kind of meaningful schedule to both FR and NB...but they are penny-pinching and NIMBY-placating on the initial design by going for single track start and double-up later). But the Middleboro Secondary is an arrow-straight shot between Cotley Jct. at the 24/140 interchange to Middleboro yard. It's *decent* condition track used 2-3 times a day every single day, very few grade crossings, and when the Cape Codder was still running they trenched cable for a new signal system that remains unfinished because the route was canceled before it was more than half-done. That would be a relatively easy one to pump up to full passenger speed, plunk down a side platform connected to the Silver City Galleria stop, and run from there to Middleboro station. The Old Colony is fully capable of handling a Buzzards Bay terminus for the full commuter rail schedule, but they can't run more than a limited schedule onto the Cape without a mix-and-match alt route.

Ultimately I think Stoughton's cheaper and bigger bang-for-buck in isolation than fixing Savin Hill, and probably has more total juice as a build priority if the OC were capped at just Greenbush, Plymouth, and a Middleboro/Buzzards Bay ceiling. The single-track at Savin Hill is easier to swing if JFK and Quincy Ctr. got double-track platforms for staging meets. That is doable (very much so at JFK, requiring some structural reinforcement at QC).

Stoughton is ultimately worth the build because of this alt route option. That's excellent utilization. And you would still be able to send Cape trains through the N-S Link via Stoughton without needing to build the Old Colony portal. Which is the main reason why I think the OC portal is unjustifiable expense with only Greenbush, Plymouth, and Bridgewater-north served.

It just needs to be sheared off from South Coast Fail, Raynham and Easton need to be slapped into submission, and they have to back off the timetable until the Legislature seriously reforms shit. That's my only issue with the Stoughton route. Frankly, South Coast gets more palatable if they cool it for 10 years and rope a Cape Codder restoration + Stoughton-Cape routing in first to get some national-interest stakeholder participation. Because until the CC is on the map, it IS strictly a local commuter rail project the feds have zero interest in funding. The FR/NB/Freetown ass-kissing has put the cart so far before the horse it's senseless. There's a way to do this if they only would pursue it in the correct order instead of ass-backwards with ponies for every politician starting south-to-north.
 
A Cape train is pointless. You can't get around down the Cape without a car. For the money you'd be much better off replacing the Sagamore Bridge with a wider, more modern bridge and giving the Bourne a rotary flyover.
 
A Cape train is pointless. You can't get around down the Cape without a car. For the money you'd be much better off replacing the Sagamore Bridge with a wider, more modern bridge and giving the Bourne a rotary flyover.

Bourne is getting a flyover. That is definitely planned.

New bridge: never ever ever ever ever ever ever. Horrible traffic and all, Cape residents are vehemently and consistently against that. No basis in reality here.


Cape wants the train and the studies say the ridership is there to support it. I agree there are steps in the process. Probably starting with a public-private partnership to boost the Cape Cod Central excursions into a more general-purpose in-season transit option with coordinated M'boro transfers. Then a Middleboro-Buzzards Bay extension. Coordinated with a Cape Codder restoration and some limited state-run commuter service and gradual, phased upgrade of the on-Cape track speeds. Then the Stoughton-Taunton tie-in and a full-service commuter schedule.

Spread over 20 years. That's not at all hard to swallow when broken into meaningful baby steps.
 
A Cape train is pointless. You can't get around down the Cape without a car. For the money you'd be much better off replacing the Sagamore Bridge with a wider, more modern bridge and giving the Bourne a rotary flyover.

Its not that hard to change Auto Centric Cape Cod back to Transit Centric , add buses that connect to trains , improve streets for bikers and pedestrians and there you have it. New England in General along with Southeastern PA , Southern New York , New Jersey and parts of Maryland are easy to flip back and in many cases that's what people want and have been asking for decades..
 
Its not that hard to change Auto Centric Cape Cod back to Transit Centric , add buses that connect to trains , improve streets for bikers and pedestrians and there you have it. New England in General along with Southeastern PA , Southern New York , New Jersey and parts of Maryland are easy to flip back and in many cases that's what people want and have been asking for decades..

No need to add a bus network from scratch, there's one there already. Just needs some fleshing out and a proper central point to be coordinated around, like Gateway Center Newport.

Hyannis Transportation Center, most likely.
 
Am I missing something with the N/S rail link? I feel like it would be an awful waste of money. There's one intercity line leaving from North Station and it serves small communities in Southern NH, and a sparsely settled metro area with 500,000 people spread out over a land area double the size of the state of Rhode Island (I'm including the extension to Brunswick in that figure). I've yet to see an estimate for a N/S rail link but assuming you'd have to tunnel under the existing tunnels and other infrastructure, I can only imagine the price tag would be in the billions.

Unless there are plans to make the existing Downeaster line fully HSR and extend it to Quebec City while adding a high speed Montreal line out of North Station, I can only imagine a much better solution would be to run light rail along the RKG between N/S station.
 
Am I missing something with the N/S rail link? I feel like it would be an awful waste of money. There's one intercity line leaving from North Station and it serves small communities in Southern NH, and a sparsely settled metro area with 500,000 people spread out over a land area double the size of the state of Rhode Island (I'm including the extension to Brunswick in that figure). I've yet to see an estimate for a N/S rail link but assuming you'd have to tunnel under the existing tunnels and other infrastructure, I can only imagine the price tag would be in the billions.

Unless there are plans to make the existing Downeaster line fully HSR and extend it to Quebec City while adding a high speed Montreal line out of North Station, I can only imagine a much better solution would be to run light rail along the RKG between N/S station.

The Quebec Dream is boondoggle of itself , connecting New Hampshire and Maine to New York and DC via a one seat ride is a huge economic boost and through Running the T would fix traffic congestion throughout the region. Its well worth the cost , your region is broken transit wise this would fix some of it...
 
No need to add a bus network from scratch, there's one there already. Just needs some fleshing out and a proper central point to be coordinated around, like Gateway Center Newport.

Hyannis Transportation Center, most likely.

Having spent a weekend in Bar Harbor last summer, I found myself very jealous of their Island Explorer, and wishing that something like that could supplement CCRTA service on the Cape by actually hitting the places that visitors want to go, i.e. the beaches and harbors. Already 3-4 bus routes are leaving Hyannis hourly, but if you could double that and subsidize the tourist routes in the high season, you'd really be onto something for the car-free set while making the place a much more viable rail destination.

Unfortunately, Cape Cod Potato Chips (or its current parent, Snyder's of Hanover) lacks the philanthropic resources of L.L. Bean, so I don't know where the money comes from. But it's a thread about adding HSR corridor designations, after all, so I suppose funding concerns can be checked at the door.
 
I find the Vineyard bus system to be excellent. A great example just a couple miles away.
 
What do people who ride the ferry do?

The Boston to P-Town ferry is different. It drops passengers off right in the middle of one the few really walkable communities on Cape Cod. There are pedicabs and bike rentals left and right as well. Most of the beaches around P-Town are public (which isn't the case in a lot of the Cape) so they're accessible by bike or foot from the town center too. I don't think too many Boston- P.Town riders are going much beyond P-Town.

Hyannis, Chatham and Falmouth have walkable town centers and you have tiny village centers in Orleans, Woods Hole, Falmouth and Sandwich that are somewhat walkable too. The issue is rail access to all of those places. Lots of Cape Cod's rail is now bike path. Hyannis has rail near the town center, but I don't know how much use it would be for Commuter Rail or Intercity Rail. Falmouth's ROW is now a bike trail (good luck converting that) and There's nothing near Chatham.

Then there's simply the novelty of a boat ride to the Cape in the summer. Get on a boat at Rowes Wharf and in 90 minutes you're in the center of the town at the tip of the Cape. Compare that to rail where you'll pass through scenic Stoughton, Taunton, Middleborough, etc. to get off at a station where you're likely to have to transfer to a bus to get to the town center you want to get to.
 

Back
Top