Missing HSR Corridor Designations

Yes, it is tertiary importance. You have to flush the system full of a source of passengers first before B&A HSR is supportable. That is not happening until:

-- The NEC gets its whole laundry list of capital improvements to the existing infrastructure fulfilled. Including the Gateway Tunnel. Significantly greater thru service from the NEC to the Empire Corridor is an absolute requirement for Albany to act as any sort of significant linchpin. If the ridership source doesn't first start flowing N-S, it's not going to have forward momentum E-W out of Boston. The only way you're doing that is by upping the thru capacity to NYC significantly.

-- Empire Corridor full-blown HSR. Goes without saying. We're still in the first stages of stepping up diesel service to 110 MPH. Then somebody's got to plant the electrification flag from the south or there's frigging nothing to connect the Albany hub to or plow west with higher speeds. Then you've got to get the secondary route to Montreal on the Adirondack appreciably fast (110 MPH diesel at minimum, one step below 125 MPH electric).

-- You have to get the Inland route chugging along at its full diesel schedule to generate some robust Boston-Springfield-Hartford traffic. You have to get the Springfield Line going 110 diesel. You have to get the Springfield Line electrified to 125 to plant that second electrification node touching the B&A...you are not bridging Albany-Springfield-Worcester-Boston without it. And you have to step up the Knowledge Corridor to faster 90 MPH diesel, and the B&A east of Springfield to at least 90 MPH to bolster the N-S and E-W pipeline through Springfield. You have to plant the third electrification node on the T to Worcester.


Yes...whatever order you want to tackle that laundry list, a direct high-speed connection between Springfield and Albany comes after ALL that work. The passengers to support a BOS-ALB service at triple-digit speed don't exist today. They have to come from somewhere. There has to be cresting momentum at the major terminal stops flushing all these branch corridors full.

Impatient? Start flogging somebody to get to work on the whole-enchilada Empire Corridor HSR and pumping $B's into Gateway and everything south. It ain't happening without a bare minimum of those. And it probably ain't happening without minimum of triple-digit fast diesel on every off-NEC/off-Empire corridor north of NYC.

Yes, I get that. I'm not trying to argue that BOS-ALB should be at the top of the list.

It sure as hell doesn't belong at the bottom, though, and I'd rate it higher than things like triple-digit speeds on Waterbury/Danbury/New Canaan, at least. I'm willing to say that BOS-ALB is of secondary importance... but it sure as hell isn't tertiary.
 
The 110 MPH intermediate step ain't bad either. Every piece of Amtrak equipment assigned to the Eastern U.S. can do that. No need to make a new rolling stock purchase at all to get halfway to true HSR. Commuter rail and electrics have more bang-for-buck getting un-asphyxiated by the FRA than long-distance diesels do.

But the pace of even making those investments on the Empire Corridor has been dissapointing to-date. Everybody thought when Cuomo was elected governor that he'd be good on pushing this along, but he's been disengaged at best. It's not a unified enough political front at the moment.

Hes a lying scum no better then Krispy Creme Christie ...both canceling rail projects to suite their budget crunching needs when they both ended up making our taxes higher and chasing the jobs away...
 
Have any of you heard of a proposal called cross england Xpress rail. its supposed to upgrade the Lake Shore Limited route to 125mph and then layer it with commuter rail or regional Rail which means 25 roundtrips a day at least to Springfield slightly less to Albany.
 
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Is the Boston-Albany HSR going to maybe run through on the empire corridor to Buffalo?

Yes. Albany itself isn't nearly big enough to demand it. Hitting Albany + Syracuse + Rochester + Buffalo + (Toronto?) would definitely do the trick.

Keep in mind...there can be service like this when the Empire goes real-deal HSR west of Albany. It's not so bad a constraint if the B&A isn't that speed if things really fly once you hit Albany. Get some T wires out to Worcester. Hit that 90-110 speed range out to Springfield and do the best you can to keep the slog through the Berkshires from dipping below 80. Then lash up some AmCans to a dual-mode like this between Worcester and Albany...100-110 MPH diesel, 125 MPH electric at the Albany changeover. Yes, the FRA equipment exists today and is flying off the shelves to its quite satisfied commuter rail customers.

This type of service would absolutely be competitive with air and bus travel to those cities in NY. It's not so easy to get a decent flight these days out there on an everything-through-the-hubs airline network that's getting moreso by the day. You can run this type of service as soon as the Empire is ready for it. It won't be a train every hour on the hour. It will only have parity with the Pike out to Albany. But...for that whole string of cities and 125 on the rest of the route? Hell yes you could support a 4 or 5 daily round trip schedule with those travel times. Hell of a lot more useful than the Lake Shore Limited or a bus, no?

Tertiary priority is wires + 110-125 on the whole B&A. That has no business getting ahead of the NEC + Empire HSR trunks, cracking NYC thru capacity wide open, and doing fully-developed intermediate-step fast diesel steps on all the primary branchlines: Adirondack, Vermonter/Montrealer, Springfield/Inland Regional. I would argue that electric/125 to ALB is behind the more buildable east leg--HFD-PRV or HFD-WOR-BOS--of the Shoreline super-HSR bypass on the truly dire needs list. Tertiary priority doesn't mean that no useful service can exist. It absolutely can. But there's about 12 figures worth of bigger-picture stuff taking priority over perfect, unassailable electric/125+ on the B&A.

This isn't worth the energy getting bent out of shape over. The flagging political enthusiasm for the Empire Corridor...THAT is worth a healthy dose of aggro.
 
Ive been hearing about the inland regionals restoration for years now, is it ever going to be done? i personally think it'll end up like the E line to Arborway.
 
Yes. Albany itself isn't nearly big enough to demand it. Hitting Albany + Syracuse + Rochester + Buffalo + (Toronto?) would definitely do the trick.

Keep in mind...there can be service like this when the Empire goes real-deal HSR west of Albany. It's not so bad a constraint if the B&A isn't that speed if things really fly once you hit Albany. Get some T wires out to Worcester. Hit that 90-110 speed range out to Springfield and do the best you can to keep the slog through the Berkshires from dipping below 80. Then lash up some AmCans to a dual-mode like this between Worcester and Albany...100-110 MPH diesel, 125 MPH electric at the Albany changeover. Yes, the FRA equipment exists today and is flying off the shelves to its quite satisfied commuter rail customers.

This type of service would absolutely be competitive with air and bus travel to those cities in NY. It's not so easy to get a decent flight these days out there on an everything-through-the-hubs airline network that's getting moreso by the day. You can run this type of service as soon as the Empire is ready for it. It won't be a train every hour on the hour. It will only have parity with the Pike out to Albany. But...for that whole string of cities and 125 on the rest of the route? Hell yes you could support a 4 or 5 daily round trip schedule with those travel times. Hell of a lot more useful than the Lake Shore Limited or a bus, no?

Tertiary priority is wires + 110-125 on the whole B&A. That has no business getting ahead of the NEC + Empire HSR trunks, cracking NYC thru capacity wide open, and doing fully-developed intermediate-step fast diesel steps on all the primary branchlines: Adirondack, Vermonter/Montrealer, Springfield/Inland Regional. I would argue that electric/125 to ALB is behind the more buildable east leg--HFD-PRV or HFD-WOR-BOS--of the Shoreline super-HSR bypass on the truly dire needs list. Tertiary priority doesn't mean that no useful service can exist. It absolutely can. But there's about 12 figures worth of bigger-picture stuff taking priority over perfect, unassailable electric/125+ on the B&A.

This isn't worth the energy getting bent out of shape over. The flagging political enthusiasm for the Empire Corridor...THAT is worth a healthy dose of aggro.

No kidding. The Albany area has been promised HSR for decades now. I remember as a kid when they got the Turboliners...of course, now I'm in my 20s and there's absolutely no sign of it ever happening. And it won't- it doesn't make much of a difference to downstaters, and the rest of upstate won't get behind it without South Coast Fail-esque huge plans to hit syracuse/rochester/buffalo all at once. NYC-ALB is a straight shot, not that many grade crossings to zap as it's by the river, proven ridership... it should've been running 125 mph trains by now.
 
Ive been hearing about the inland regionals restoration for years now, is it ever going to be done? i personally think it'll end up like the E line to Arborway.

It's a moot point until the Springfield Line upgrades are finished. You can't run anything fast enough or conveniently-timed enough New Haven-Springfield-Boston to make it a useful service under current conditions. By the time the Regional has fought its way upstream to Springfield the schedule's too inexact to coordinate with CSX dispatching on the B&A...which, remember, until about 2 months ago ran all the way to Boston not just the single-track gap to Worcester. That's what got Amtrak to throw in the towel on the original Inland service in 1995.

The B&A is a secondary priority to nailing the trip to Springfield. If they double-track NHV-SPR, eliminate the worst speed restrictions, and can flush through a fuller and more nimble schedule on the current Springfield Regionals then they've got wind to their backs on reinstating service. And it'll help a lot for NHHS commuter rail to get its starter schedule established because that'll make Hartford, Bradley Int'l, and Springfield much higher-demand stops for all services. The T dispatching east of Worcester and most of the freight traffic disappearing knocks out half the B&A clogs without a single stick of double-track or single MPH of speed improvements. And the freight west of Worcester is not increasing...the frequencies are actually decreasing now with the new double-stack trains consolidating twice the goods on somewhat fewer runs (for now...it'll probably re-grow as business grows). This is already helping the Lake Shore Limited's normally abysmal OTP by leaps and bounds. Just since the summer.

They could, when the Springfield Line upgrades are finished, restart single daily Inland round trips without dropping a dime of improvements on the B&A. The single track really isn't an issue for that as the fast-improving LSL schedule is showing (remember: the Vermonter sucks ass because of the interminable backup move in Palmer yard...not the single track en route). They won't, however, cheap out like that; CSX wants some good-faith investment in permanent infrastructure, and Amtrak wants to do it right if they take the plunge. So it'll come with infill double-tracking and speed boost from Class 3/60 MPH to Class 4/80 MPH. But all parties have long since agreed on the specs, and as funding commitments go it's a much smaller job than any other ongoing New England rail project. Maybe a few dozen $M...it'll seem surprisingly cut-rate because there's no stations involved. When the Springfield Line upgrades are on the home stretch you could see stimulus award can appear by semi-surprise and...bang...the double track and west-of-Framingham speeds are paid for. It's not as big a ramp-up as it would seem given how long people have been talking about this. We've waited long because the Springfield Line has waited long.
 
Have any of you heard of a proposal called cross england Xpress rail. its supposed to upgrade the Lake Shore Limited route to 125mph and then layer it with commuter rail or regional Rail which means 25 roundtrips a day at least to Springfield slightly less to Albany.

No, actually, I have literally never heard of improved service on the B&A referred to as "Cross England," except by Nexis4jersey (and you.)

And, honestly, I am not at all a fan of the name. It sounds really, really awkward to me.

Nexis4Jersey, why not call it the Berkshires Service? Or the State of New York, since it's really going to Buffalo? Or, hell, go the other way, Bay State Service / State of Massachusetts train?
 
No, actually, I have literally never heard of improved service on the B&A referred to as "Cross England," except by Nexis4jersey (and you.)

And, honestly, I am not at all a fan of the name. It sounds really, really awkward to me.

Nexis4Jersey, why not call it the Berkshires Service? Or the State of New York, since it's really going to Buffalo? Or, hell, go the other way, Bay State Service / State of Massachusetts train?

I think Cross England sounds better , it doesn't go near the Bay...you could call the Proposed Cape Cod Service the Bay State Express... Would you prefer Cross New England?
 
High-Speed-Rail-Expanded_map.jpg


Found the Map....these would be the feeders....at least into the NEC 110-125mph.. I don't understand why they only put the South Coast line on here , its commuter rail...and what is the Auburn - Montreal line?
 
Yes, I get that. I'm not trying to argue that BOS-ALB should be at the top of the list.

It sure as hell doesn't belong at the bottom, though, and I'd rate it higher than things like triple-digit speeds on Waterbury/Danbury/New Canaan, at least. I'm willing to say that BOS-ALB is of secondary importance... but it sure as hell isn't tertiary.

If HVN-SPG and NYP-ALB are primary,
And Empire Corridor (ALB-BUF) and Inland (SPG-BOS) are secondary,
Then ALB-SPG is, by definition, tertiary.
 
No kidding. The Albany area has been promised HSR for decades now. I remember as a kid when they got the Turboliners...of course, now I'm in my 20s and there's absolutely no sign of it ever happening. And it won't- it doesn't make much of a difference to downstaters, and the rest of upstate won't get behind it without South Coast Fail-esque huge plans to hit syracuse/rochester/buffalo all at once. NYC-ALB is a straight shot, not that many grade crossings to zap as it's by the river, proven ridership... it should've been running 125 mph trains by now.

At least they've replaced most of the tracks , expanded or replaced some stations, installed High Speed Cross overs and gotten rid of some crossings or upgraded them....you can go 125mph over crossings...upstate they go 110mph over crossings. I don't think you see Albany - Buffalo Improvements however , I think you'll see Albany - NYC Improvements there isn't much to be done...except in NYC which needs new tracks , bridges...that will be lumped into the Metro North Expansion which comes later this decade allowing Metro North into Penn Station. There are still 20 miles of old tracks and switches but they should be replaced soon.... After that all you need is Electrification...
 
No, actually, I have literally never heard of improved service on the B&A referred to as "Cross England," except by Nexis4jersey (and you.)

And, honestly, I am not at all a fan of the name. It sounds really, really awkward to me.

Nexis4Jersey, why not call it the Berkshires Service? Or the State of New York, since it's really going to Buffalo? Or, hell, go the other way, Bay State Service / State of Massachusetts train?
hes actually the person i heard it from and i was wondering if anyone here had any informtion on that, which i guess you don't.
 
High-Speed-Rail-Expanded_map.jpg


Found the Map....these would be the feeders....at least into the NEC 110-125mph.. I don't understand why they only put the South Coast line on here , its commuter rail...and what is the Auburn - Montreal line?

The "New England Vision" is the map put together by the collective New England states for inclusion in USDOT's vision, so it's been blessed accordingly by each of the constituent states. Of course that means Deval & Tim had to make their shameless South Coast Rail plug. Don't worry...there is no risk of the feds cutting us a check for that one. :rolleyes:

The Ethan Allen Express extension in VT from Rutland to Burlington is real...they're already upgrading the freight track as step 1 in securing funding for 60 MPH service. But I don't know WTF that southern half of the Western Corridor from Albany-Bennington-Rutland is supposed to be. Some VTTrans planner leaving his fantasy map in the photocopier??? It spends half its distance inside the Green Mountain Nat'l Forest. That one's a laugher.


Maine is serious about studying long-term use of the St. Lawrence & Atlantic main for passenger service to Canada. The freight carrier there is robust enough to wring some upside out of getting passenger-speed track bootstrapped onto the biggest contiguous pan-Northern New England mainline. The problem, as always, is what happens the second you cross the NH border. Pfft! goes the public support. It looks like the mapmaker gave up tracing the actual ROW's up there, blasted a straight arc through the forest, and called it a "long-range corridor". Erm...no.

There might be some possibilities here if the VIA Rail Corridor service gets HSR'd between Quebec City and Montreal and the NEC branchlines to the far north (Downeaster, Adirondack, Montrealer/Vermonter) get fast-speed diesel and really flush the ridership through. But you're talking regular-speed service on regular freight lines, a 1 round-trip per day type deal to cut across New England without needing to backtrack to higher-density trackage to the south. 60-80 MPH, hardly any intermediate stops (and bare-platform, shelterless, 1-door loading mini-highs for what few stops it does make), and bootstrapping on top of freight upgrades to maximize the upside for all stakeholders. And state-driven advocacy...this would be a VTTrans-MEDOT tag team with the feds filling in yet again for deadbeat New Hampshire, public-private partnership with the freight carrier, and some reciprocal interest from Quebec province. Bootstappy thrift...maybe, if the stakeholders are motivated enough. But HSR it will never be.


I've said plenty about what a crock the B&M Northern Route ROW is for Boston-Montreal HSR. And I don't buy I-89 as any better with the grades and likely expense involved. I think if they re-study that route all signs are going to point to the Patriot Corridor to Greenfield as the only sane choice a not-on-drugs planner could endorse, and the laggards in Concord learning to make do with a cross-platform transfer in Lowell.
 
The "New England Vision" is the map put together by the collective New England states for inclusion in USDOT's vision, so it's been blessed accordingly by each of the constituent states. Of course that means Deval & Tim had to make their shameless South Coast Rail plug. Don't worry...there is no risk of the feds cutting us a check for that one. :rolleyes:

The Ethan Allen Express extension in VT from Rutland to Burlington is real...they're already upgrading the freight track as step 1 in securing funding for 60 MPH service. But I don't know WTF that southern half of the Western Corridor from Albany-Bennington-Rutland is supposed to be. Some VTTrans planner leaving his fantasy map in the photocopier??? It spends half its distance inside the Green Mountain Nat'l Forest. That one's a laugher.


Maine is serious about studying long-term use of the St. Lawrence & Atlantic main for passenger service to Canada. The freight carrier there is robust enough to wring some upside out of getting passenger-speed track bootstrapped onto the biggest contiguous pan-Northern New England mainline. The problem, as always, is what happens the second you cross the NH border. Pfft! goes the public support. It looks like the mapmaker gave up tracing the actual ROW's up there, blasted a straight arc through the forest, and called it a "long-range corridor". Erm...no.

There might be some possibilities here if the VIA Rail Corridor service gets HSR'd between Quebec City and Montreal and the NEC branchlines to the far north (Downeaster, Adirondack, Montrealer/Vermonter) get fast-speed diesel and really flush the ridership through. But you're talking regular-speed service on regular freight lines, a 1 round-trip per day type deal to cut across New England without needing to backtrack to higher-density trackage to the south. 60-80 MPH, hardly any intermediate stops (and bare-platform, shelterless, 1-door loading mini-highs for what few stops it does make), and bootstrapping on top of freight upgrades to maximize the upside for all stakeholders. And state-driven advocacy...this would be a VTTrans-MEDOT tag team with the feds filling in yet again for deadbeat New Hampshire, public-private partnership with the freight carrier, and some reciprocal interest from Quebec province. Bootstappy thrift...maybe, if the stakeholders are motivated enough. But HSR it will never be.

Whats wrong with the South Coast Network? What about RI Plans without it , they can't move forward or are useless... Ive noticed New Hampshire seems to think it can ignore the Downeaster costs.... They should just junk the Ethan Allen it seems like a wasteful service...it really only services 2 towns....
 
I think Cross England sounds better , it doesn't go near the Bay...you could call the Proposed Cape Cod Service the Bay State Express... Would you prefer Cross New England?

It'd be the Bay State Express because Massachusetts is the Bay State, in the same way that New York is the Empire State (and has the Empire Service.)

Cross New England is better from a semantics standpoint, but doesn't really roll off the tongue.

I guess what I really want is for the B&A mainline to get a proper corridor name, like the Keystone Corridor or the Empire Corridor or the Downeaster Corridor. "The Cross New England Corridor" doesn't really do it for me.

(If I'm being perfectly honest, neither does 'Northeast Corridor' or worse yet, 'Inland Northeast Corridor.' I think I'd be irrationally excited if they rebranded it the Shoreline Corridor or the Coastline Corridor or something.

Oh, and they should definitely restore the 66/67's previous (totally kickass) name of 'Twilight Shoreliner.')

Why NOT the Berkshires Corridor?

If HVN-SPG and NYP-ALB are primary,
And Empire Corridor (ALB-BUF) and Inland (SPG-BOS) are secondary,
Then ALB-SPG is, by definition, tertiary.

Well, yes, but you see, I consider NHV-SPG-BOS and NYP-ALB-BUF as being inextricable - ergo, NYP-ALB as part of the Empire Corridor, and the Empire Corridor in its entirety as being of primary importance. (Likewise Inland via Springfield.)

ROWs that bridge two corridors of primary importance, like SPG-ALB would, are of secondary importance.
 
It'd be the Bay State Express because Massachusetts is the Bay State, in the same way that New York is the Empire State (and has the Empire Service.)

Cross New England is better from a semantics standpoint, but doesn't really roll off the tongue.

I guess what I really want is for the B&A mainline to get a proper corridor name, like the Keystone Corridor or the Empire Corridor or the Downeaster Corridor. "The Cross New England Corridor" doesn't really do it for me.

(If I'm being perfectly honest, neither does 'Northeast Corridor' or worse yet, 'Inland Northeast Corridor.' I think I'd be irrationally excited if they rebranded it the Shoreline Corridor or the Coastline Corridor or something.

Oh, and they should definitely restore the 66/67's previous (totally kickass) name of 'Twilight Shoreliner.')

Why NOT the Berkshires Corridor?



Well, yes, but you see, I consider NHV-SPG-BOS and NYP-ALB-BUF as being inextricable - ergo, NYP-ALB as part of the Empire Corridor, and the Empire Corridor in its entirety as being of primary importance. (Likewise Inland via Springfield.)

ROWs that bridge two corridors of primary importance, like SPG-ALB would, are of secondary importance.

No reason , I would actually rename all corridors a cool name which I will post later...
 
Whats wrong with the South Coast Network? What about RI Plans without it , they can't move forward or are useless... Ive noticed New Hampshire seems to think it can ignore the Downeaster costs.... They should just junk the Ethan Allen it seems like a wasteful service.

What intercity route would possibly go to the South Coast? None. Ever. That's why it doesn't belong. It's a state commuter rail project. I could see a revival of the Cape Codder being tacked on as "other" service...but Cape is not South Coast is it?


Ethan Allen Express did 50,000 passengers in 2011 and is growing at a pretty good clip with some recent track upgrades. Popular with tourists because of the connecting shuttle at Rutland to Killington resort. VTTrans subsidizes the 40 miles and 2 stops that deviate from the Adirondack corridor, so the first 200 miles of the route are pretty much just service fattener for NYC-ALB + Saratoga Springs in lieu of extra short-turns. It pulls its weight for Amtrak solely because of that, and if VTTrans ran out of money to fund the last 2 stops it would probably remain on the schedule in NY State as a nameless short-turn extra.

Used to have the worst on-time performance on all of Amtrak because of the incompetent freight operator dispatching those last 40 off-main miles into VT, but they've shaved 20 minutes off the schedule the last 2 years by fixing up that track. If the Burlington extension got OK'd that would likewise be subsidized by VTTrans.


(Vermont and Maine are vying for bragging rights as New England passenger rail's anti-New Hampshire.)
 
Whats wrong with the South Coast Network? What about RI Plans without it , they can't move forward or are useless... Ive noticed New Hampshire seems to think it can ignore the Downeaster costs.... They should just junk the Ethan Allen it seems like a wasteful service...it really only services 2 towns....

And that is a goddamn tragedy perpetuated against the good people of my state by the spoiled little children living in Fall River, nevermind Assonet/Freetown/Raynham and the South Coast Cheer Squad.

The only chance we EVER have of seeing commuter rail restored to Aquidneck Island is if Amtrak or anyone with actual muscle backing them decides they want Intercity Rail to Newport. (Of course, as F-Line said, the chances of that are slim and none.)

But let me tell you, the first politician to tell Fall River to sit down and shut up because the adults are talking now has my vote. For life.
 
Why is New Hampshire so anti-Rail do they not see the benefits in Maine or Massachusetts....?
 

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