Missing HSR Corridor Designations

Nexis4jersey said:
The New Station will fix that..., it has the support of the region and DC itself...along with most residents. The Plan was the creation of DC , Maryland , Amtrak and Virgina which all use the station which is overcapacity.
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Except... it doesn't?

I've seen nothing but opposition to what is really a terribly overblown and overstated project. People hate this project for the absurd price tag, for it destroying the historic Union Station building, or for having a completely bullshit distribution of high/low platforms... last I checked, they planned to keep around 3 of them. THREE! Either go 100% high level and tell VRE to deal with it or keep it 50/50 so we can retain the use of VRE galleries and Superliners. Three is just a ridiculously stupid number.

(Also, I'm more concerned with the 1st street tunnel, which probably needs to be expanded to four or six tracks.)

No amount of station renovation is going to fix the fundamental problem of there being only six tracks coming in from the north and two from the south. I'm assuming that a number of Regionals reverse for Virginia service because they can't access the tunnel and there's some circuitous means of crossing into the south from the north-side access trackage, which is wonky, but could be workable.

Punch out the 1st street tunnel to four or six tracks, punch through any stub-ending walls that need punching through to make sure every track can access the tunnel at all times, and come back to me with a plan for keeping the existing Union Station building. Build above it, build below it, but don't you dare knock it down.

(Also, for the love of all that is just and right in the world, can we decide whether or not we want to draw the 'high levels only past this' line at Union Station or not and COMMIT TO THAT CHOICE?)
 
I like this idea it would really supercharge Providence , the current station is collapsing and needs a replacement...

http://www.jswinslow.com/pvdstation.html

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New RI Light Rail

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Commuting Boston Student said:
Except... it doesn't?

I've seen nothing but opposition to what is a terribly overblown and overstated project. People hate this project for the absurd price tag, for it destroying the historic Union Station building, or for having a completely bullshit distribution of high/low platforms... last I checked, they planned to keep around 3 of them. THREE! Either go 100% high level and tell VRE to deal with it or keep it 50/50 so we can retain the use of VRE galleries and Superliners. Three is just a ridiculously stupid number.

(Also, I'm more concerned with the 1st street tunnel, which probably needs to be expanded to four or six tracks.)
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14 New Tracks and Platforms for Expanded Amtrak & MARC Capacity...New Larger Waiting rooms and boarding areas. The station is dangerously overcrowded and needs to expanded Everywhere...VRE might go high level platform , for now they get their own expanded area...
 
Nexis4jersey said:
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You had me up until Providence Station, then suddenly, this became terrible.

If you want me to take this seriously, it has to terminate at T.F. Green Airport. There's no other way, sorry.

I'd also like to see the 1/4 mile gap between Kennedy Plaza and the Station bridged in some way, although if that's an absolute non-starter, it might be better to start looking at options to close Kennedy Plaza and re-localize all bus service around the station... I don't know.
 
Commuting Boston Student said:
You had me up until Providence Station, then suddenly, this became terrible.

If you want me to take this seriously, it has to terminate at T.F. Green Airport. There's no other way, sorry.

I'd also like to see the 1/4 mile gap between Kennedy Plaza and the Station bridged in some way, although if that's an absolute non-starter, it might be better to start looking at options to close Kennedy Plaza and re-localize all bus service around the station... I don't know.
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Its really the I-195 Express Light Rail...its not the Enhanced South County line and T.F Green is a boondoggle of a station should have never been built.
 
Nexis4jersey said:
Its really the I-195 Express Light Rail...its not the Enhanced South County line and T.F Green is a boondoggle of a station should have never been built.
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...did you seriously just suggest that T.F. Green Airport is a boondoggle of a station?

T.F. GREEN!?

You referred to that as the 'enhanced South County line,' so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're just confusing T.F. Green Airport with Wickford Junction, which WAS a terrible boondoggle of a station.

Please, please, PLEASE tell me you were confused and thinking of Wickford Junction.
 
Commuting Boston Student said:
Except... it doesn't?

I've seen nothing but opposition to what is really a terribly overblown and overstated project. People hate this project for the absurd price tag, for it destroying the historic Union Station building, or for having a completely bullshit distribution of high/low platforms... last I checked, they planned to keep around 3 of them. THREE! Either go 100% high level and tell VRE to deal with it or keep it 50/50 so we can retain the use of VRE galleries and Superliners. Three is just a ridiculously stupid number.

(Also, I'm more concerned with the 1st street tunnel, which probably needs to be expanded to four or six tracks.)

No amount of station renovation is going to fix the fundamental problem of there being only six tracks coming in from the north and two from the south. I'm assuming that a number of Regionals reverse for Virginia service because they can't access the tunnel and there's some circuitous means of crossing into the south from the north-side access trackage, which is wonky, but could be workable.

Punch out the 1st street tunnel to four or six tracks, punch through any stub-ending walls that need punching through to make sure every track can access the tunnel at all times, and come back to me with a plan for keeping the existing Union Station building. Build above it, build below it, but don't you dare knock it down.

(Also, for the love of all that is just and right in the world, can we decide whether or not we want to draw the 'high levels only past this' line at Union Station or not and COMMIT TO THAT CHOICE?)
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I haven't seen that much opposition to this project , except a few concerns about connecting the 2 stations other then that theres been support. Of Course if you count Crazy Alon Levy as Opposition then that falls apart completely. They want to Expand both systems and Virgina is moving slow with upgrades so forming through running and high level platforming which would fix half of this issue isn't happening so Amtrak and DC along with Maryland and Virgina. The Tunnel will be upgraded...sometime later this decade , actually most Congested and Bottlenecks in that region should be fixed by 2020 except the Station. They also need an Expanded Station for the Expanded NEC plans , they plan on doubling trains by 2020.... If you jealous , I don't no why Boston is getting the same thing abet smaller. New York too even smaller , Newark , Philadelphia and Baltimore are also getting new Stations to the tune of 12 billion comes with track , bridge and tunnel upgrades...
 
Commuting Boston Student said:
...did you seriously just suggest that T.F. Green Airport is a boondoggle of a station?

T.F. GREEN!?

You referred to that as the 'enhanced South County line,' so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're just confusing T.F. Green Airport with Wickford Junction, which WAS a terrible boondoggle of a station.

Please, please, PLEASE tell me you were confused and thinking of Wickford Junction.
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No Wickford with some enhancements will be a great station and was not overbuilt considering TOD is planned for that area. TF Green is overbuilt and underused a boondoggle...even if you put in future TOD. To be honest the whole The T builds things is a boondoggle , 1 more track in certain areas.... Amtrak wanted 4 tracks to Kingston for RI to proceed with the half or full South County line... They only put it in , in certain areas which is stupid and dangerous. I think RI needs to boot the The T from RI and things would be designed and built better.
 
The DC Union station plan offers zero improvement to train operations. It's $7 billion basically to install a parking garage and some shopping. It's ridiculous, Alon Levy and others are entirely correct about it being a boondoggle.
 
Nexis4jersey said:
No Wickford with some enhancements will be a great station and was not overbuilt considering TOD is planned for that area. TF Green is overbuilt and underused a boondoggle...even if you put in future TOD. To be honest the whole The T builds things is a boondoggle , 1 more track in certain areas.... Amtrak wanted 4 tracks to Kingston for RI to proceed with the half or full South County line... They only put it in , in certain areas which is stupid and dangerous. I think RI needs to boot the The T from RI and things would be designed and built better.
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No, Wickford is a terrible station and no amount of TOD in the world is going to change what an overblown mess it is - because I'm going to let you in on the dirty little secret nobody's told you yet.

Office parks? Those count as TOD.

I've seen the future of Wickford Junction, I've been to the future of Wickford Junction, and it's called "Route 128 Station."

Wickford Junction is a Park and Ride. It's been a park and ride since the day it opened, and it will be a park and ride until the day it closes. Its location was chosen to maximize its qualities as a park and ride - easy access to routes 1, 2, and 4 -> 95, generous quantities of parking and the ability to upscale for more parking - although, more parking may never be needed on that site.

T.F. Green Airport, on the other hand? 200 daily riders in July. Easy access to the airport for which it is named, rental car facilities, local bus connections, in a city that's becoming more and more walkable by the day. It doesn't need any TOD because the station is functioning fine right now as it is, meeting all expectations.

And guess what? When the MBTA finally hands over the reins to Rhode Island? They're keeping T.F. Green as their new terminus for the Providence Line. Amtrak? They're going to be stopping Regionals there in the future. This is not an 'if,' this is a 'when.'

This isn't even close to a boondoggle, and frankly, that you would declare it such insults me far more than the ad hominem attacks you were pitching my way.
 
Arlington said:
Missing HSR Corridors, anyone?
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Actually, I tried to hit as many priority cities as possible in as few 'corridors' as possible. This is what I came up with:
  1. Downeast: Augusta - Portland - Saco - Durham - Boston (- Hyannis, but this is doubtful)
  2. Berkshires/Empire: Buffalo - Albany - Springfield - Boston (This one needs a better name!)
  3. Adirondack/Empire: Montreal - Albany - New York City
  4. Keystone: Philadelphia - Harrisburg - Pittsburgh - Cleveland
  5. Northeast: Washington - Philadelphia - New York City - Hartford - Providence - Boston - Concord (for the Manchester-Philadelphia market)
  6. Piedmont: Washington - Richmond - Raleigh - Charlotte - Atlanta
  7. Southeast: Raleigh - Columbia - Savannah - Jacksonville - Orlando (for the transfer)
  8. Silver Bullet: Tampa - Orlando - Miami
  9. Deep South: Atlanta - Birmingham - Meridian - New Orleans
  10. Gulf Coast: Mobile - New Orleans - Houston - San Antonio
  11. Central Texas: Oklahoma City - Dallas - Austin - San Antonio
  12. West Coast: San Diego - Los Angeles - San Francisco - Sacramento (and everywhere important in between)
  13. Cascades: Portland - Seattle - Vancouver
  14. North Chicagoland: Minneapolis - Milwaukee - Chicago
  15. South Chicagoland: Chicago - Louisville - Nashville
  16. East Chicagoland: Chicago - Indianapolis - Cincinnati (- Columbus/Cleveland?)
  17. West Chicagoland: Chicago - St. Louis - Kansas City
  18. Great Lakes: Chicago - Detroit - Toledo - Cleveland - Buffalo

Not included are better names for the Chicagoland corridors, or any sort of cross-corridor / through-routing trains. I didn't double-check that all of these come in at under 600 miles, but I'm fairly certain they all do.

Memphis - Nashville - Atlanta and Phoenix - Los Angeles - Las Vegas would have gotten us an even 20, but neither of those routings make sense.

They're also not listed in priority order. Were it me, I'd study all of those (except the NEC, which already exists), take the 5 that will generate the most estimated ridership (probably West Coast, Empire, Piedmont, Gulf Coast and either Texas or one of the Chicagolands) call those 5 corridors phase I for true HSR service, work on getting 140~160 mph average speeds on those corridors (and the NEC), and work on bringing the rest of the network up to top speeds of 110 mph. By the time that's done, the world will probably be sufficiently different to reassess our goals.

(Of course, that's assuming Zero-to-HSR is even doable. If it is NOT, then forget the study and just focus on getting 110 mph everywhere. The NEC could then become the 'testbed' for HSR and be 20 years ahead of the rest of the rail network.)
 
Matthew said:
The DC Union station plan offers zero improvement to train operations. It's $7 billion basically to install a parking garage and some shopping. It's ridiculous, Alon Levy and others are entirely correct about it being a boondoggle.
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Well the DC - NOVA - MD Rail Advocates seem to disagree , and they haven't been wrong or supported a bad idea....infact they want a even larger station. Which I'm sure they'll get , not all of this will be built with Federal $$$ , some state $$$ for the MARC and VRE Expansions and the developments will be private so only 2 Billion in improvements which is what the NYC Region is proposing.

People seem to act like Alon Levy is a god or something , hes too Pro-Urban and not balanced enough which is why his Proposals often are shot down by regional advocates or ignored. He recently said Amtrak doesn't need a Gateway Project , it needs to merge the trains and down the road it could expand...I had to tell them that the Tunnels and Bridges were collapsing and needed to be replaced fast not 20 years from now. He said that Amtrak doesn't need to 6 track in NJ , then Rail advocates told him NJT would like to expand our state network and we needed more tracks which was in the NEC plans. I like some of his ideas like merging the Rail systems in the Northeast like NJT - MNRR - LIRR and VRE & MARC.... But lately hes been going off on rail advocates saying our ideas are crap and his ideas are right when they're not.

As for too Urban , he barked at me and a few other Transit advocates for suggesting the state expand the Suburban Network along with the Urban Network. He said it should be Urban over Suburban which would not only make traffic worse by ignoring the key suburban areas where it comes from which are dense...but it would make expanding Transit next to impossible Suburbanites would cry foul... I don't support Expanding Service to the Exurbs let them die , but the Urbanized Suburbs weren't built around the car and should not be ignored its where most of the population lives at least in this region.
 
Commuting Boston Student said:
No, Wickford is a terrible station and no amount of TOD in the world is going to change what an overblown mess it is - because I'm going to let you in on the dirty little secret nobody's told you yet.

Office parks? Those count as TOD.

I've seen the future of Wickford Junction, I've been to the future of Wickford Junction, and it's called "Route 128 Station."

Wickford Junction is a Park and Ride. It's been a park and ride since the day it opened, and it will be a park and ride until the day it closes. Its location was chosen to maximize its qualities as a park and ride - easy access to routes 1, 2, and 4 -> 95, generous quantities of parking and the ability to upscale for more parking - although, more parking may never be needed on that site.

T.F. Green Airport, on the other hand? 200 daily riders in July. Easy access to the airport for which it is named, rental car facilities, local bus connections, in a city that's becoming more and more walkable by the day. It doesn't need any TOD because the station is functioning fine right now as it is, meeting all expectations.

And guess what? When the MBTA finally hands over the reins to Rhode Island? They're keeping T.F. Green as their new terminus for the Providence Line. Amtrak? They're going to be stopping Regionals there in the future. This is not an 'if,' this is a 'when.'

This isn't even close to a boondoggle, and frankly, that you would declare it such insults me far more than the ad hominem attacks you were pitching my way.
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Actually I'll take back both statements Wickford JCT seems to encourage Sprawl , while TF Green with some TOD and another Platform could be a great station. But that Garage is a blight to the Landscape and will make it hard to fully Integrate TOD into the station. Why couldn't they build it on the Airport Property?
 
Commuting Boston Student said:
Actually, I tried to hit as many priority cities as possible in as few 'corridors' as possible. This is what I came up with:
  1. Downeast: Augusta - Portland - Saco - Durham - Boston (- Hyannis, but this is doubtful)
  2. Berkshires/Empire: Buffalo - Albany - Springfield - Boston (This one needs a better name!)
  3. Adirondack/Empire: Montreal - Albany - New York City
  4. Keystone: Philadelphia - Harrisburg - Pittsburgh - Cleveland
  5. Northeast: Washington - Philadelphia - New York City - Hartford - Providence - Boston - Concord (for the Manchester-Philadelphia market)
  6. Piedmont: Washington - Richmond - Raleigh - Charlotte - Atlanta
  7. Southeast: Raleigh - Columbia - Savannah - Jacksonville - Orlando (for the transfer)
  8. Silver Bullet: Tampa - Orlando - Miami
  9. Deep South: Atlanta - Birmingham - Meridian - New Orleans
  10. Gulf Coast: Mobile - New Orleans - Houston - San Antonio
  11. Central Texas: Oklahoma City - Dallas - Austin - San Antonio
  12. West Coast: San Diego - Los Angeles - San Francisco - Sacramento (and everywhere important in between)
  13. Cascades: Portland - Seattle - Vancouver
  14. North Chicagoland: Minneapolis - Milwaukee - Chicago
  15. South Chicagoland: Chicago - Louisville - Nashville
  16. East Chicagoland: Chicago - Indianapolis - Cincinnati (- Columbus/Cleveland?)
  17. West Chicagoland: Chicago - St. Louis - Kansas City
  18. Great Lakes: Chicago - Detroit - Toledo - Cleveland - Buffalo

Not included are better names for the Chicagoland corridors, or any sort of cross-corridor / through-routing trains. I didn't double-check that all of these come in at under 600 miles, but I'm fairly certain they all do.

Memphis - Nashville - Atlanta and Phoenix - Los Angeles - Las Vegas would have gotten us an even 20, but neither of those routings make sense.

They're also not listed in priority order. Were it me, I'd study all of those (except the NEC, which already exists), take the 5 that will generate the most estimated ridership (probably West Coast, Empire, Piedmont, Gulf Coast and either Texas or one of the Chicagolands) call those 5 corridors phase I for true HSR service, work on getting 140~160 mph average speeds on those corridors (and the NEC), and work on bringing the rest of the network up to top speeds of 110 mph. By the time that's done, the world will probably be sufficiently different to reassess our goals.

(Of course, that's assuming Zero-to-HSR is even doable. If it is NOT, then forget the study and just focus on getting 110 mph everywhere. The NEC could then become the 'testbed' for HSR and be 20 years ahead of the rest of the rail network.)
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Why wouldn't the Downeaster HSR corridor go up to Bangor?
The Cascadia Corridor goes down to Eugene

Those were my only 2 issues...otherwise its a great list...most of the Midwestern Network covers your plans and them adds more...which I will post below.
 
The Midwest Plan , its state by state by state with IL , MI , MN and MO leading the charge , while OH , IN , WI sit on their hands...at least with large scale projects small projects like Catenary and Bridge Replacement are moving forward in IN , and station and track replacements in OH and WI...but Rail restorations and upgrades are only happening in IL , MN , MO and MI.

http://www.midwesthsr.org/network

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Nexis4jersey said:
Actually I'll take back both statements Wickford JCT seems to encourage Sprawl , while TF Green with some TOD and another Platform could be a great station. But that Garage is a blight to the Landscape and will make it hard to fully Integrate TOD into the station. Why couldn't they build it on the Airport Property?
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I know that the train station platform, and any future platforms, are where they are because the NEC Main Line and an airport are both things you can't really just pick up and easily move. The garage, then, was probably built there for train station access. (They also yanked the rental cars out of the Airport and relocated them there, which is a decision I can best describe as 'wonky.' Local bus service still goes directly to arrivals, though, so maybe that extra walk of discouragement is enough to get people to take the bus? I don't know.)

The sky bridge connecting the airport to the train station was actually designed so that extra buildings could be connected to it later, which will go a long way towards station integration.

Nexis4jersey said:
Why wouldn't the Downeaster HSR corridor go up to Bangor?
The Cascadia Corridor goes down to Eugene

Those were my only 2 issues...otherwise its a great list...most of the Midwestern Network covers your plans and them adds more...which I will post below.
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I axed Eugene for the same reason I didn't extend to Bangor - I don't feel either city is quite important enough yet, and neither justify themselves well as an endpoint for HSR. Medium-speed or commuter rail operations SHOULD be sufficient for initial service as feeders into the HSR network - with well-timed transfers.

Eugene's only real value as far as HSR is concerned, is if you can find enough cities between it and Sacramento to justify punching out a Portland-Sacramento HSR line. (And... I don't think you can.)

I also believe that once we get up to top speeds of 200~225 mph (300 kph, doable today by many Euro trains), top speeds on slower regional/long-distance/commuter lines will become so comparatively slow that THOSE will be forced up as well. Future commuter lines should top out at 110 (diesel)/125 (electric), and future regional/LD trains at 150-165.
 
Commuting Boston Student said:
I know that the train station platform, and any future platforms, are where they are because the NEC Main Line and an airport are both things you can't really just pick up and easily move. The garage, then, was probably built there for train station access. (They also yanked the rental cars out of the Airport and relocated them there, which is a decision I can best describe as 'wonky.' Local bus service still goes directly to arrivals, though, so maybe that extra walk of discouragement is enough to get people to take the bus? I don't know.)

The sky bridge connecting the airport to the train station was actually designed so that extra buildings could be connected to it later, which will go a long way towards station integration.



I axed Eugene for the same reason I didn't extend to Bangor - I don't feel either city is quite important enough yet, and neither justify themselves well as an endpoint for HSR. Medium-speed or commuter rail operations SHOULD be sufficient for initial service as feeders into the HSR network - with well-timed transfers.

Eugene's only real value as far as HSR is concerned, is if you can find enough cities between it and Sacramento to justify punching out a Portland-Sacramento HSR line. (And... I don't think you can.)

I also believe that once we get up to top speeds of 200~225 mph (300 kph, doable today by many Euro trains), top speeds on slower regional/long-distance/commuter lines will become so comparatively slow that THOSE will be forced up as well. Future commuter lines should top out at 110 (diesel)/125 (electric), and future regional/LD trains at 150-165.
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1. I don't have a problem with the station , its the Garage which makes TOD hard to build and adds a slight blight to the area....

2. Eugene is a city of 150,000+ and is projected to hit 200,000 by 2030...it also has a solid jobs base so I wouldn't write it off. Hence why they started in Eugene.

I wouldn't write off any of the cities in the Cascadia Corridor due Population growth...and Transit connections as lisited below , the bolded cities would be the Express service

*1Eugene - 156,185 > 200,000_ by 2030
Albany - 50,158 > 70,000+ by 2030
*2Salem - 154,637 > 230,000+ by 2030
Oregon City - 31,000 (2010) > 50,000+ by 2030
*3Portland - 593,500 (2010) > 640,000+ by 2030
*4Vancouver - 164,300 (2010) > 250,000+ by 2030
Kelso - 11,900 (2010) > 15,600+ by 2030
Centralia - 16,300 (2010) > 18,900+ by 2030
*5Lacey - 42,200 (2010) > 65,200+ by 2030
*6Tacoma - 198,300 (2010) > 220,000+ by 2030
*7Seattle - 608,100 (2010) > 840,000+ by 2030
*8Edmonds - 40,200 (2010) > 42,400+ by 2030
*9Everett - 103,200 (2010) > 140,000+ by 2030
Stanwood - 6,300 (2010) > 12,600+ by 2030
Mount Vernon -31,800 (2010) > 51,400+ by 2030
Bellingham - 80,000 (2010) > 137,000+ by 2030
*10Vancouver - 603,200 (2010) > 780,000+ by 2030

*1 , Bus Rapid Transit Network , Future Streetcar network proposed
*2 , Extension of the WES Commuter being Planned
*3 MAX Light Rail and Buses and Streetcar lines
*4 Future MAX Light Rail Extension
*5 Future Sounder Extension
*6 Buses , Streetcar , Sounder Commuter Rail , Expanded Streetcar and Commuter Rail planned
*7 Trolley and Regular Buses , Sounder Commuter Rail , Light Rail , Future Streetcar and Light Rail lines under Construction
*8 Sounder Commuter Rail and Buses
*9 Sounder Commuter Rail and Buses
*10 Skytrain , Buses , West Coast line , Future Streetcar Network
 
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