Missing HSR Corridor Designations

[Commuting Boston Student]

Springfield does require a backup move on the platform to get on the Conn River Line. The station is about 1400 feet from the junction. But they were doing that reverse move very efficiently a century ago when it was a bustling terminal stop. It is pretty trivial for the engineer to change ends on the platform at a major terminal stop. They do it multiple times a day at D.C. Union Station for the Virginia NE Regionals. Springfield would be even quicker because of the shorter dwell times.

I had the wrong idea of which building was the station.

Still, that's a situation that's easily correctable and shouldn't even require the engineer to change ends. Just pull the train forward past the wye and have it back into the station controlled by dispatch (or a second engineer at the yard whose job includes handling back-ins) - still worlds better than the Palmer absurdity that results in the whole damn train moving backwards for several miles. (And yes, as last I checked the Vermonter used the same 'all seats facing forward' AmCans that the Regionals do, I can say it does in fact have a 'backwards.')

I maintain that the station is fine where and how it is, no new station, no moving station required.

edit: Wait, they can't turn the Regionals at DC? Where do they turn, then?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

I had the wrong idea of which building was the station.

Still, that's a situation that's easily correctable and shouldn't even require the engineer to change ends. Just pull the train forward past the wye and have it back into the station controlled by dispatch (or a second engineer at the yard whose job includes handling back-ins) - still worlds better than the Palmer absurdity that results in the whole damn train moving backwards for several miles. (And yes, as last I checked the Vermonter used the same 'all seats facing forward' AmCans that the Regionals do, I can say it does in fact have a 'backwards.')

I maintain that the station is fine where and how it is, no new station, no moving station required.

edit: Wait, they can't turn the Regionals at DC? Where do they turn, then?

They don't crew-change at Springfield, so the engineer will have to change ends. And they're not going to tie up the B&A with slow-speed reversing. That won't fly when commuter rail is running up there every half hour and the 2nd busiest freight yard in the state is on the other side of the bridge and taking thru or interchange traffic N/S/E/W from that junction.


At DC they do an engine change at the platform...the electric leads, the diesel couples on the trailing end then pulls out. Then the reverse on the return trip. DC Union's a stub-end just like South Station. They pull non-revenue equipment turns on a wye, but for continuing service they reverse directions at the platform. They could--and used to--do the same at SS for thru-routes yet imagined. It really isn't rocket science.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

They don't crew-change at Springfield, so the engineer will have to change ends. And they're not going to tie up the B&A with slow-speed reversing. That won't fly when commuter rail is running up there every half hour and the 2nd busiest freight yard in the state is on the other side of the bridge and taking thru or interchange traffic N/S/E/W from that junction.


At DC they do an engine change at the platform...the electric leads, the diesel couples on the trailing end then pulls out. Then the reverse on the return trip. DC Union's a stub-end just like South Station. They pull non-revenue equipment turns on a wye, but for continuing service they reverse directions at the platform. They could--and used to--do the same at SS for thru-routes yet imagined. It really isn't rocket science.

It'll fly for one train daily, I guarantee it.

What's bothering me about this is that there's no way in hell long distance trains operate with all the seats facing backwards NYP-WAS, and there's definitely no way in hell they're doing it all points DC-south. Amfleets on the NEC and Superliner Coaches all face one way.

At some point, the train HAS to reverse a second time to correctly re-orient.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

It'll fly for one train daily, I guarantee it.

What's bothering me about this is that there's no way in hell long distance trains operate with all the seats facing backwards NYP-WAS, and there's definitely no way in hell they're doing it all points DC-south. Amfleets on the NEC and Superliner Coaches all face one way.

At some point, the train HAS to reverse a second time to correctly re-orient.

Is seat orientation an actual real-world problem? Who is actually going to care about this? And more importantly...who cares about it so much that they prefer burning 10 minutes on the schedule doing some awkward set of reverse moves so the train is facing forward?

That is aesthetic OCD to an absurd extreme. They make it work perfectly well doing exactly what they're doing.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

Is seat orientation an actual real-world problem? Who is actually going to care about this? And more importantly...who cares about it so much that they prefer burning 10 minutes on the schedule doing some awkward set of reverse moves so the train is facing forward?

That is aesthetic OCD to an absurd extreme. They make it work perfectly well doing exactly what they're doing.

Yes, it's an actual real-world problem, the same way axing the Cafe Car or rolling out new trains featuring no windows whatsoever would be actual real-world problems, especially since there's no reason it needs to happen this way.

Riding backwards is one of the most disorientating, uncomfortable and nauseating experiences I've ever been subjected to, doubly so at speeds of 100+ mph, and I will personally guarantee a random sampling of 100 different people sitting in reverse-facing seats on any train anywhere in the USA right now would find at least 60 people who agree with me, and probably closer to 80 or 85.

It's not aesthetic OCD to an absurd extreme, because as I said and I'll say it again, this is not me freaking out that you used the wrong color of blinds - this is me freaking out because YOUR BUILDING HAS NO WINDOWS! That's unacceptable!

Ten minutes backing into and out of a wye is a) not going to be all that awkward, and b) going to be a hell of a lot less awkward than the nauseating experience of going full-speed in reverse.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Yes, it's an actual real-world problem, the same way axing the Cafe Car or rolling out new trains featuring no windows whatsoever would be actual real-world problems, especially since there's no reason it needs to happen this way.

Riding backwards is one of the most disorientating, uncomfortable and nauseating experiences I've ever been subjected to, doubly so at speeds of 100+ mph, and I will personally guarantee a random sampling of 100 different people sitting in reverse-facing seats on any train anywhere in the USA right now would find at least 60 people who agree with me, and probably closer to 80 or 85.

It's not aesthetic OCD to an absurd extreme, because as I said and I'll say it again, this is not me freaking out that you used the wrong color of blinds - this is me freaking out because YOUR BUILDING HAS NO WINDOWS! That's unacceptable!

Ten minutes backing into and out of a wye is a) not going to be all that awkward, and b) going to be a hell of a lot less awkward than the nauseating experience of going full-speed in reverse.

No. 10 minutes of schedule penalty on a wye is a much bigger deal to overall ops, cost, and revenue than the small % who feel nauseous riding backwards. Sorry...that's just how it is, and why they do it that way. Airline routes don't go extra-dainty through all but the most severe turbulence or overdesign their seating with shock absorbers for the same reason.

Plus chewing up 10 minutes with a revenue move on the wye outside D.C. Union to reorient the seats doesn't just introduce a schedule penalty on the train you're on...it slows EVERYTHING coming in and out of the station down because that wye blocks both a revenue track and moves in/out of the Amtrak yard for the duration of the move. There is constant movement on those tracks, especially to/from the yard. It's not nearly long or nimble enough for turnbacks. They pull the non-revenue reverse when they absolutely have to, but usually the yard is stocked with trainsets facing both directions so they grab-and-go as they need it. For the thru trains that don't have that luxury...meh, they do what they gotta do. Can't please everyone.

 

[HenryAlan]

It'll fly for one train daily, I guarantee it.

What's bothering me about this is that there's no way in hell long distance trains operate with all the seats facing backwards NYP-WAS, and there's definitely no way in hell they're doing it all points DC-south. Amfleets on the NEC and Superliner Coaches all face one way.

At some point, the train HAS to reverse a second time to correctly re-orient.

Most of the trains I ride on, half the seats face forward, half face rearward. Doesn't that address this issue?

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

No. 10 minutes of schedule penalty on a wye is a much bigger deal to overall ops, cost, and revenue than the small % who feel nauseous riding backwards. Sorry...that's just how it is, and why they do it that way. Airline routes don't go extra-dainty through all but the most severe turbulence or overdesign their seating with shock absorbers for the same reason.

Plus chewing up 10 minutes with a revenue move on the wye outside D.C. Union to reorient the seats doesn't just introduce a schedule penalty on the train you're on...it slows EVERYTHING coming in and out of the station down because that wye blocks both a revenue track and moves in/out of the Amtrak yard for the duration of the move. There is constant movement on those tracks, especially to/from the yard. It's not nearly long or nimble enough for turnbacks. They pull the non-revenue reverse when they absolutely have to, but usually the yard is stocked with trainsets facing both directions so they grab-and-go as they need it. For the thru trains that don't have that luxury...meh, they do what they gotta do. Can't please everyone.

Chewing up 5 minutes with a revenue move on the Springfield wye for one train each way each day, on the other hand, is going to cause no such issues - especially if planned for and handled correctly, as I trust Amtrak to be more than capable of doing.

As for the DC Union wye, that problem is far more easily solved by axing all LD service WAS-NYP, which also frees up dozens of slots for new Regional trains, enables the use of Superliners on the Silver Services, AND likely attracts far more riders into the system - as Amtrak will ONLY board or ONLY disembark passengers on LD trains inside of the NEC with the exception of the Vermonter, so all those timeslots (and, relatedly, any empty seats out of NYP not filled by WAS...) are wasted money.

Most of the trains I ride on, half the seats face forward, half face rearward. Doesn't that address this issue?

Yes, and in fact, this is precisely why I don't pitch a huge fit over 50% of the seats on commuter rail being backwards, or 100% of subway seats facing inward, and why I would agree with the 'meh, do what you have to do' sentiment if it was 50% of Amtrak seats that faced backwards - but it's not. Amtrak coach cars, business class cars, Superliner cars, all of them feature nominally forward-facing seating. This is a system-wide characteristic.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Chewing up 5 minutes with a revenue move on the Springfield wye for one train each way each day, on the other hand, is going to cause no such issues - especially if planned for and handled correctly, as I trust Amtrak to be more than capable of doing.

As for the DC Union wye, that problem is far more easily solved by axing all LD service WAS-NYP, which also frees up dozens of slots for new Regional trains, enables the use of Superliners on the Silver Services, AND likely attracts far more riders into the system - as Amtrak will ONLY board or ONLY disembark passengers on LD trains inside of the NEC with the exception of the Vermonter, so all those timeslots (and, relatedly, any empty seats out of NYP not filled by WAS...) are wasted money.



Yes, and in fact, this is precisely why I don't pitch a huge fit over 50% of the seats on commuter rail being backwards, or 100% of subway seats facing inward, and why I would agree with the 'meh, do what you have to do' sentiment if it was 50% of Amtrak seats that faced backwards - but it's not. Amtrak coach cars, business class cars, Superliner cars, all of them feature nominally forward-facing seating. This is a system-wide characteristic.

Scale, scale, scale. D.C. Union station serves 200,000 passengers a day, 2 commuter rail agencies, and 10 Amtrak routes as a bi-level station with 18 platforms. And EVERYTHING goes in and out of D.C. Union on only 6 tracks, which is less than South Station has. Waste 15 minutes fucking around on the wye at 5:00pm and 50,000 Maryland and Virginia commuters and NEC riders are leaving the station late. Springfield Union serves 360 passengers a day on 4 platforms and has 3 lead tracks coming in on both sides. They aren't remotely comparable.

Go sit in one of the cars that has seats in the opposite direction. Not everything on the whole train points 1 direction. The seats are available. Go tell a conductor you feel nauseous riding in reverse and they'll re-seat you at D.C. Union after the departing passengers are off the train but before anyone else boards. Seriously...are we going to fuck up all passenger rail traffic on the entire Eastern seaboard fiddling around with this? AXE all thru Regionals patronized by thousands of people each year??? Spend a quarter-billion building a loop or something?

This is the very definition of aesthetic OCD gone bonkers. It's a non-issue. Get a different seat. They can and will accommodate needs of this sort.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

Scale, scale, scale. D.C. Union station serves 200,000 passengers a day, 2 commuter rail agencies, and 10 Amtrak routes as a bi-level station with 18 platforms. And EVERYTHING goes in and out of D.C. Union on only 6 tracks, which is less than South Station has. Waste 15 minutes fucking around on the wye at 5:00pm and 50,000 Maryland and Virginia commuters and NEC riders are leaving the station late. Springfield Union serves 360 passengers a day on 4 platforms and has 3 lead tracks coming in on both sides. They aren't remotely comparable.

Then you agree with me in as much as I say, if the Vermonter was to be backed in on the Springfield wye, it would be as close to painless as is humanly possible while still keeping everything pointed the right way?

AXE all thru Regionals patronized by thousands of people each year???

No, I'm saying cut back all NON-Regional service that currently goes NYP-WAS-wherever to just WAS-wherever, and replace all those time slots currently being eaten by Silver Service/Palmetto/Carolinian/Cardinal/Crescent trains with more Regionals. I'll begrudgingly accept that things need to be this way for the Virginia services. I won't accept that this is the case where the LD trains are concerned.

(As an aside, looking at a map, I can't for the life of me see how trains come in from the tracks leading to Alexandria, and it looks like they dive underground already anyway. Six tracks only coming in is kind of a huge problem for such a small station - can we maybe not solve both problems at once?)

 

[davem]

If it ever became THAT much of an issue they could just reactivate the last 5 miles of the NY&NE Springfield Branch through East Longmeadow. It comes into the station from the east so there would be no reverse move required.

It's also straighter than the Conn River Line (no tight curves to go over the bridge) and runs through more rural land for straightening so it would be better for high speeds anyway.

It misses Windsor Locks and Thompsonville but I don't really see any issue with that on a LD train to Montreal anyway.

And I agree with F-Line, a reverse move is really a non-issue. Shut down, change ends, do a brake test and pull out. It would probably be complete before the passengers embarked.
As for reverse riding, the Amfleet's seats all spin around, they could educate passengers on this feature. Metro North and NJ Transit customers turn their seats on their own all the time. It also allows to sit as a group facing each other.

I get massive motion sickness just turning around in an auto, but a train is smoother and bigger and I've yet to have an issue riding the wrong way. The biggest issue is you can't see the scenery as well.

The bigger issue for track configurations around Springfield is there is no way for a potential commuter train to Hit Northampton, Easthampton and Southhampton and then turn east in Westfield to get into Springfield without a reverse move.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

As for reverse riding, the Amfleet's seats all spin around, they could educate passengers on this feature.

HOLD THE PHONE.

This is news to me! I thought those seats were pretty much rooted in place. They turn?

How do you go about turning them?

 

[davem]

HOLD THE PHONE.

This is news to me! I thought those seats were pretty much rooted in place. They turn?

How do you go about turning them?

There is a small lever by the floor that spins each chair 180*. I don't know if they all have them but I've seen it done. There was also a humorous time when I watched a couple try to sit in ones that had become unlatched.

You can see it under the plastic armrest here:

Edit: Here is a discussion about it: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=50054

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

If it ever became THAT much of an issue they could just reactivate the last 5 miles of the NY&NE Springfield Branch through East Longmeadow. It comes into the station from the east so there would be no reverse move required.

It's also straighter than the Conn River Line (no tight curves to go over the bridge) and runs through more rural land for straightening so it would be better for high speeds anyway.

It misses Windsor Locks and Thompsonville but I don't really see any issue with that on a LD train to Montreal anyway.

They want to do that as the freight bypass for the Springfield Line because it's the only way to get double-stack freight cars down to Hartford from CSX in West Springfield. Too many overhead clearance obstructions on the Springfield Line proper. CT has it in the official State rail plan to work with MA to get it done, and Amtrak wants it done too to ease the (significant) freight congestion on the Springfield Line.

MA is being predictably passive-aggressive and letting East Longmeadow trail it over. Bleh. Would've been a cheapie, too.


That would be a TERRIBLE passenger line, BTW. There's 8 bazillion grade crossings and it so closely parallels US 5 for several miles that the crossings hit every road and driveway almost precisely at the stop line. You are never ever getting faster traffic than 15 MPH freight on that line. So cram all the freight on that line and get it the hell away from the passenger schedule.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

There is a small lever by the floor that spins each chair 180*. I don't know if they all have them but I've seen it done. There was also a humorous time when I watched a couple try to sit in ones that had become unlatched.

You can see it under the plastic armrest here:

Edit: Here is a discussion about it: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=50054

So, what you're telling me is that when the train pulls into DC and the direction reversal happens, they could have all the seats turned around in the process of changing ends/break-testing/whatever?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

So, what you're telling me is that when the train pulls into DC and the direction reversal happens, they could have all the seats turned around in the process of changing ends/break-testing/whatever?

Theoretically. Although there'd still be passengers onboard continuing on, so the conductors would only be able to turn the empties that aren't facing riders staying aboard.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

Theoretically. Although there'd still be passengers onboard continuing on, so the conductors would only be able to turn the empties that aren't facing riders staying aboard.

Something tells me that most of those riders would be willing to cooperate or even assist in a row-by-row seat swap if they were given the opportunity to do so.

But let's go back to DC Union for a minute. Only six tracks feeding in to a station that just sees this tremendous amount of train traffic seems like a capacity crisis waiting to happen. Why haven't more tracks been added yet?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Something tells me that most of those riders would be willing to cooperate or even assist in a row-by-row seat swap if they were given the opportunity to do so.

But let's go back to DC Union for a minute. Only six tracks feeding in to a station that just sees this tremendous amount of train traffic seems like a capacity crisis waiting to happen. Why haven't more tracks been added yet?

No room. The Metro runs right alongside the tracks above-ground on the ROW and New York Ave. station is on the ROW. Whole thing cuts between a city block and has wall-to-wall buildings on all sides and streets passing underneath the embankment. There's no physically possible way to widen it or tunnel under it.

It all works in regular service because the station itself is well-designed as a bi-level and things proceed in and out in generally more orderly fashion than South Station. But if something fucks up the lead tracks...yes, it is a doubleplusbad thing. The last time I was there a MARC train collided with an empty Amtrak coming out of the yard, derailed, and blocked all but 2 of the tracks coming out of the station. At 4:30 on a Friday. My Regional was 2 hours late, and the inbound Regionals were backed up to Penn and being held for a half our at Penn, Philly, and Baltimore to space out the single-file line into D.C. It ended up being the worst cascading NEC delay of the entire year.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

...wait just a damn minute.

DC Union Station isn't actually a stub-end.

F-Line, what the hell are you talking about?

 

[Nexis4jersey]

The New Station will fix that..., it has the support of the region and DC itself...along with most residents. The Plan was the creation of DC , Maryland , Amtrak and Virgina which all use the station which is overcapacity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4A-K94UChE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfVTKGfF0ec