Multi-Family Zoning Requirements for MBTA Communities

This is what happens when things are done in a rush behind closed doors. They should have debated and enacted this requirement on its own instead of it being an amendment to a spending bill because it is too impactful. It should have been more nuanced and had "teeth." Now they can't fix it because the local pols would have to publicly support it and they are not going to stick their necks out for it. As far as a "builder's remedy," that would probably be the "teeth" in a well written law
 
stick n move said:
-Umm first off, yes we do, right from the article I responded to:

“The response of “No” couldn’t have been shouted any louder from the quorum of Middleboro residents proclaiming they don’t want to be forced to comply with a state mandate that, local officials said, will increase housing production to an unsustainable level for the town.
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A quorum doesn’t mean *everyone* who attended Town Meeting voted it down, it just means there were enough members present to make the voting valid. It seems like it was a voice vote since none of the reporting provided a tally (the last time I checked the meeting minutes hadn’t been approved yet either so I’m making this assumption unless proven otherwise). But either way it would highly unlikely (even with a voice vote only) to have unanimity in a town meeting vote given the quantity of voting members.

stick n move said:
-Second off the actual point I was making wasnt even really about them,
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Then you should have made that actual point instead of pointing to the physical appearance of the crowd and then using that as the basis for your judgment. That overshadowed the rest of what you said.

stick n move said:
it was that it is unfortunate that the demographic of people who are least likely to own a home and will be affected the most by this law are not showing up to community meetings. “For many different reasons the people who will be affected the most by this were not there. Most probably didnt even know it was happening. Its unfortunate.” I think that we need to find a way to change this because it is well known that community meetings in massachusetts are not working as a way to be representative of the greater city/town population as a whole.
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I agree there is a structural problem with town meetings / city council given societal changes (two people/parents working full time, meetings held during weekday afternoons/evenings, have to attend in person to vote, etc.). I certainly know that I can’t attend these things regularly or at all (even as a viewer on city broadcast from the comfort of my own home).

stick n move said:
Dont take my word for it MIT did a study on this exact situation:

“Findings indicate attendants to town meetings are more likely to be older, white, married, to work as municipal employees, and to be homeowners compared to the population at large. Conditional on owning a home, attendants’ housing wealth is evenly distributed. Sixty percent of meeting attendees report having been present to the last five consecutive annual assemblies. This group of pivotal, faithful voters—representing only 1.2 percent of a town’s adult population on average—has resided in town for 30 years, 12 years longer than occasional voters. Meeting regulars are more likely to participate in civic organizations, town committees, and volunteering activities. We conclude that older, married, locally-rooted, civically-minded homeowners who have known each other for a long time bear more power in municipalities where recurrent public meetings are used for
municipal decision-making.”
MIT study

-So according to the article that said that the very people who were there “could not be more against it” and studies done on this exact phenomenon in massachusetts that show that older, whiter, married, homeowners tend to be the only ones who routinely show up to community meetings in order to block housing, I think that this is a problem that needs to be addressed. I dont see how you can try to say I’m being discriminatory when I’m trying to say that community meetings need to be more representative of people from all different age groups and backgrounds, but do you.
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Look, my main gripe was that none of this was stated in your original comment. If what you said in the follow-up comment had been the basis for your argument, I wouldn’t have had a problem with it. But none of that was there. It was entirely premised on the physical appearance of the crowd (including a photo!) that just wouldn’t fly if the same comment was made about a different type of physical appearance or characteristic (race, ethnicity, sex, gender). My point in an example is take your original comment and, instead of age, apply it to the racial composition of a crowd. Then make a similar quip about well hey look there’s a bunch of [insert race here] people and it’s no surprise they have this opinion or whatever. Doing that immediately demonstrates the weakness of an argument focusing on physical appearance and you can see very quickly the fallacy of that approach which is why I cautioned against it.

The only other point I’ll make is that of all the ways one can group people by appearance, age as a class is the one unifier because everyone gets old (if we have the fortune to live on this Earth that long). White people can’t become Black, Hispanic people can’t become Asian, your national origin is your national origin, etc., but anyone who is made up of a particular race, color, religion, etc. all have getting old in common. And there’s no trigger in that to say when I’m 61 years old I have these views, but when I turn 62 years old (which is considered the threshold for age discrimination) watch out all of a sudden my views then default to the standard groupthink of all the “grey hairs” out there. I don’t think your personal views are going to change materially from one day to the next because you have a birthday. That’s doesn’t make any sense. The folks who dissented in that meeting (grey haired or not) probably have held this views expressed for a very long time and it had nothing to do with their age. To your point, it’s just more likely in the aggregate that a meeting dominated by older people could have similar views expressed and outcomes reached. But it absolutely does not mean because you’re of a certain age you hold the same views as stereotyped for that grouping and that’s the way the original comment came across.

Thank you for clarifying and proving support in your follow-up comment. Apologies to the forum for the digression from the thread’s main purpose.
 
WestMedford said:
Then you should have made that actual point instead of pointing to the physical appearance of the crowd and then using that as the basis for your judgment. That overshadowed the rest of what you said.



I agree there is a structural problem with town meetings / city council given societal changes (two people/parents working full time, meetings held during weekday afternoons/evenings, have to attend in person to vote, etc.). I certainly know that I can’t attend these things regularly or at all (even as a viewer on city broadcast from the comfort of my own home).


Look, my main gripe was that none of this was stated in your original comment.
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Part where it was stated in original comment:

“For many different reasons the people who will be affected the most by this were not there. Most probably didnt even know it was happening. Its unfortunate.”

The fact that you only paid attention to the first part and completely ignored the second half of my post is on you not me. That being said when you responded I provided further clarification. Why are we still talking about this?
 
stick n move said:
Part where it was stated in original comment:

“For many different reasons the people who will be affected the most by this were not there. Most probably didnt even know it was happening. Its unfortunate.”

The fact that you only paid attention to the first part and completely ignored the second half of my post is on you not me. That being said when you responded I provided further clarification. Why are we still talking about this?
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You own your words so actually it’s not on the reader. And yes when something outlandish is written or said it does take the reader’s attention off of the point you were trying to make.

I’m done talking about it too thanks.
 
themissinglink said:
www.eagletribune.com

Methuen City Council bashes MBTA zoning as local communities face deadline

METHUEN — City Councilors are blasting the state for “government overreach” over MBTA zoning mandates as city planners look at ways to satisfy the state without creating a huge headache
www.eagletribune.com www.eagletribune.com
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I watched that meeting. The consultants/ planners even said that this is a paper-compliance plan, some of the areas to be rezoned would just match the zoning to what’s out there today and allow like 5 new units of housing across the entire zone.


It seems very risky to put all that funding at risk by not coming up with a compliant plan.
 

Massachusetts Towns That Embraced Rezoning Law See Uptick In Development Proposals​


“Some Massachusetts towns, like Milton, Holden and Rockport, have gone to court to fight for the right to block new apartment projects near their transit stops.
But where locals have embraced the state's MBTA Communities Act, passing new zoning rules, it has opened the floodgates for development. Developers and landowners that have historically had a hard time getting approval are now seeing success.”


https://www.bisnow.com/boston/news/...aw-see-uptick-in-development-proposals-126594
 
bankerandtradesman.com

Infrastructure Used to Raise ‘Significant Hurdles’ for Housing

Officials in some Boston suburbs are turning to infrastructure in their quest to stop the MBTA Communities zoning from creating housing.
bankerandtradesman.com bankerandtradesman.com

We took a look at some of the towns going in the opposite direction of Lexington, et al., places like Hopkinton that are leveraging a lack of water and sewer infrastructure to hamstring the amount of housing their MBTA Communities zoning districts could practically create.
“We have tried to put forward a plan that is not going to add housing in the near term: five years, 10 years, 15 years, even 20,” Hopkinton Planning Board Chair Robert Benson said at a public hearing to review four MBTA Communities zoning districts in October. “That’s been the approach of what we’re trying to do. We didn’t want to add a lot of school-aged children through the MBTA Communities zoning in the near term.”

One of the largest development sites in one of Hopkinton’s proposed overlay districts is the 10-acre Carbone’s restaurant property on Cedar Street, located less than a half-mile from the MBTA’s Southborough commuter rail station.

But the property has “a significant amount of wetlands” and limited public utilities, noted Ted Barker-Hook, a member of a town advisory committee that recommended the zoning districts.

“It does not have access to sewer. It does not have access to water. And those seem to us – seem to be – pretty significant hurdles,” Barker-Hook explained at the same hearing.
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The economics of designing and permitting private treatment plants for suburban housing developments often rule out smaller-scale projects, said Joseph Peznola, director of engineering at Danvers-based consultants Hancock Associates. Up-front costs for a treatment plant start at $1.5 million, and annual operation costs average $100,000, Peznola said.

“In my estimation, you’d need to be north of 200 to 300 units,” Peznola said. “If the town implements an MBTA bylaw that has vacant lots that are not big enough for a 300-unit project, then it’s going to be very difficult to realize the production of the units.”
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Banker & Tradesman said:
bankerandtradesman.com

Infrastructure Used to Raise ‘Significant Hurdles’ for Housing

Officials in some Boston suburbs are turning to infrastructure in their quest to stop the MBTA Communities zoning from creating housing.
bankerandtradesman.com bankerandtradesman.com

We took a look at some of the towns going in the opposite direction of Lexington, et al., places like Hopkinton that are leveraging a lack of water and sewer infrastructure to hamstring the amount of housing their MBTA Communities zoning districts could practically create.
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If Democrat Robert Benson of Hopkinton promises “paper compliance” with the MBTA then the MBTA should offer the same. Trains will continue to stop in Southboro, 2 second dwell times.
 
Banker & Tradesman said:
bankerandtradesman.com

Infrastructure Used to Raise ‘Significant Hurdles’ for Housing

Officials in some Boston suburbs are turning to infrastructure in their quest to stop the MBTA Communities zoning from creating housing.
bankerandtradesman.com bankerandtradesman.com

We took a look at some of the towns going in the opposite direction of Lexington, et al., places like Hopkinton that are leveraging a lack of water and sewer infrastructure to hamstring the amount of housing their MBTA Communities zoning districts could practically create.
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This is what separates the MBTA Communities Law from, say, 40B. The point is supposed to be upzoning areas near transit so smaller developments can happen naturally through by-right development rather than encouraging master-planned mega developments on greenfield or brownfield sites. This removes a lot of these BS arguments from the table, since water, sewer, wetlands, etc. should be less of a problem in already-developed areas.

Also, how is it possible that a site that hosted a restaurant has no water or sewer service? That screams hijinks to me - did the Town cut off all the lines so they could make this argument?

Overall, despite the expected rebellions, this Law is doing more or less what was intended: creating opportunities for housing near transit in many communities while naming and shaming the bad actor towns and pushing a regional discussion on housing production. The next step is to make sure those bad actors see consequences and make clear that this is truly non-optional. For 40B, that has resulted in "friendly 40B" scenarios when municipalities realize they have no choice but to work constructively with the system.

If Hopkinton doesn't think they can manage this many potential kids in their school system, perhaps the Commonwealth should take it under receivership since they seem so incompetent to run it.
 
Is there anyone here with a handy data set for school aged children in the region’s districts over time?

My anecdotal experience: Hometown highschool (outside 128 inside 495) is at 60% of the students as when I attended (2008-2012). It’s at the point they are cutting sports teams and many extra curriculars. My new town in the same region is down 25%, not as much but still significant.

Between families opting more often for 1-2 kids instead of 2-3 and wealthy retirees buying smaller starter homes in the nicer cities, I’ve been assuming the school crowding arguments are pretextual - people going to their notebook of default development blocking complaints regardless of if they still make sense.

Welcome anyone fact checking my instinct here.
 
Brandeisian said:
Is there anyone here with a handy data set for school aged children in the region’s districts over time?

My anecdotal experience: Hometown highschool (outside 128 inside 495) is at 60% of the students as when I attended (2008-2012). It’s at the point they are cutting sports teams and many extra curriculars. My new town in the same region is down 25%, not as much but still significant.

Between families opting more often for 1-2 kids instead of 2-3 and wealthy retirees buying smaller starter homes in the nicer cities, I’ve been assuming the school crowding arguments are pretextual - people going to their notebook of default development blocking complaints regardless of if they still make sense.

Welcome anyone fact checking my instinct here.
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I don't have a singular dataset on hand, but each district will have something available like what I linked for Hopkinton. MAPC may have such a dataset.

Speaking as a former teacher and with many teacher friends, my anecdotal experience is that for the majority of districts the much bigger issue is the continuing decline in enrollment from the peaks of when millennials were kids. Hopkinton clearly appears to be an outlier in this regard, but most districts are hungry for young families and more school aged children so that their state aid doesn't suffer.
 
Brandeisian said:
Is there anyone here with a handy data set for school aged children in the region’s districts over time?

My anecdotal experience: Hometown highschool (outside 128 inside 495) is at 60% of the students as when I attended (2008-2012). It’s at the point they are cutting sports teams and many extra curriculars. My new town in the same region is down 25%, not as much but still significant.

Between families opting more often for 1-2 kids instead of 2-3 and wealthy retirees buying smaller starter homes in the nicer cities, I’ve been assuming the school crowding arguments are pretextual - people going to their notebook of default development blocking complaints regardless of if they still make sense.

Welcome anyone fact checking my instinct here.
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It's definitely not the same everywhere. School enrollment in my hometown (on 495) is currently growing way faster than the buildings are designed for and the high school is already at capacity.
 
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