NEMA Boston | 399 Congress St. | Seaport

Can we stop putting up with this crap? Guy took a couple econ classes and thinks the free market solves all the worlds ill's and calls others morons

Fair, I shouldn't call people morons. I suppose in chastising me, you shouldn't either.

And I'm not sure how you extrapolated all the rest of that about econ classes and free markets. I'm an engineer and while I don't design buildings, I design systems that are as complex or more. It gets old listening to people who couldn't design a club sandwich critique things they don't know the first thing about.
 
So by that logic if you have never made a movie you shouldn't say if a movie is good or not? If you have never written a book or recorded an album...
 
Fair, I shouldn't call people morons. I suppose in chastising me, you shouldn't either.

And I'm not sure how you extrapolated all the rest of that about econ classes and free markets. I'm an engineer and while I don't design buildings, I design systems that are as complex or more. It gets old listening to people who couldn't design a club sandwich critique things they don't know the first thing about.

We get it, you’re the expert on systems deisgn around here. While I am only capable of designing a BLT, consider me the expert on jokes about animals, and call it even. Also, your comment was fundamentally about economics, assuming the rest of us are unfamiliar with the field. Again, most people on this board have some experience with finance, real estate, planning, and/or architecture.
 
Fair, I shouldn't call people morons. I suppose in chastising me, you shouldn't either.

And I'm not sure how you extrapolated all the rest of that about econ classes and free markets. I'm an engineer and while I don't design buildings, I design systems that are as complex or more. It gets old listening to people who couldn't design a club sandwich critique things they don't know the first thing about.

I design lots of club sandwiches. Probably over 30 in my life. I think I get the right to say whether a sandwich has too much mayo on it. At least I have the right to speak my opinion. Right?

cca
 
So by that logic if you have never made a movie you shouldn't say if a movie is good or not? If you have never written a book or recorded an album...

That's not what I said at all. When people throw around the term VE, they are pretending they know how and why decisions were made when they don't.

If you think a Transformers movie is crap, it doesn't mean Michael Bay was too cheap to make a good movie. He probably made the movie he set out to make and you just don't like it. You don't actually know the inner workings and the trade-offs that went into deciding what kind of movie to make and how to make it. So when you say that XYZ movie stunk you stop there and don't typically do a one sentence economic analysis of the production company, do you?

Say the building is ugly. Everyone is entitled to their aesthetic opinion.

It is very presumptuous to claim that you know that a VE decision making process resulted a building you think is ugly. You can't know that at all and frankly it sounds silly to hear people talk that way. I'm suggesting people think about what they are saying instead of parroting jargon.
 
I design lots of club sandwiches. Probably over 30 in my life. I think I get the right to say whether a sandwich has too much mayo on it. At least I have the right to speak my opinion. Right?

cca

Indeed. Everyone gets an opinion.

When you think about it though, claiming a building "has been VE'd to death" or "beaten with the VE stick" or any such thing isn't really an opinion, is it? It is an assumption.
 
I suppose a hypothetical building design could be cheap right from the drafting board, eliminating the subsequent wasteful step of cheapening the initial design.

Or, perhaps we give designers too much credit by assuming that all cheap looking products were forced on them by greedy clients.

But be in no doubt: mayonnaise sucks.
 
Balls to the water transformation of yet another dead stump parcel.

Take a seat San Jose!!
 
There is a school of thought that posits that architecture (particularly of large, prominent buildings) affects more than just the developer and buyer. And while VE may be a net positive for those two parties it is a net negative for the community as a whole, hence the criticism.
VE is a massive positive for the community as a whole. If only projects with A+ materials and design got built, housing prices would be ever higher than they are now. Anything that lowers the equilibrium price of housing is good
 
VE is a massive positive for the community as a whole. If only projects with A+ materials and design got built, housing prices would be ever higher than they are now. Anything that lowers the equilibrium price of housing is good

If by “anything” you mean raising the top marginal tax rate and plowing some of the funds into affordable housing, mark me down!
 
Can someone disprove; That market rate~luxury housing can pay the added costs of quality cladding design & materials over 30, 40 years. But cheaper skins are permitted because no one bothers to hold the builders up.

NYC infill, midrise, highrise, skyscraper, supertalls seem to ALL get the best materials the World can offer.
 
If you are talking Hudson Yards or the "Billionaire buildings" on West 57th, sure. There is a lot of crap going up all over NYC. Look up the Waterline Place development in the West 60's or some of the budget conscious hotels going up near Hudson Yards or the myriad of "meh" glass boxes in Long Island City. Brooklyn has a lot of questionable quality.

Can someone disprove; That market rate~luxury housing can pay the added costs of quality cladding design & materials over 30, 40 years. But cheaper skins are permitted because no one bothers to hold the builders up.

NYC infill, midrise, highrise, skyscraper, supertalls seem to ALL get the best materials the World can offer.
 
Indeed. Everyone gets an opinion.

When you think about it though, claiming a building "has been VE'd to death" or "beaten with the VE stick" or any such thing isn't really an opinion, is it? It is an assumption.

Its an assumption having done this for 30 years. And believe it or not you can have an opinion that is an assumption. When you think about it .. you might not be able to have one without the other.

cca
 
Its an assumption having done this for 30 years. And believe it or not you can have an opinion that is an assumption. When you think about it .. you might not be able to have one without the other.

cca

I'm not sure I follow your logic there, but its not really important to continue my rant (which was never about folks with your experience). While I don't think you and I have much overlap in our architectural taste, I do appreciate reading your critiques and find your (and others) actual industry experience to be an invaluable contribution to forum.

Yesterday I found myself leaving the liquor store with a 6-pack of Stone Sanctimonious IPA and realized that was rather apropos. I could have made a better contribution to the forum than my rant yesterday.

Sorry for being so grumpy folks.
 
I'm not sure I follow your logic there, but its not really important to continue my rant (which was never about folks with your experience). While I don't think you and I have much overlap in our architectural taste, I do appreciate reading your critiques and find your (and others) actual industry experience to be an invaluable contribution to forum.

Yesterday I found myself leaving the liquor store with a 6-pack of Stone Sanctimonious IPA and realized that was rather apropos. I could have made a better contribution to the forum than my rant yesterday.

Sorry for being so grumpy folks.

Your a good guy. We all start rants from time to time. Keep it up. As long as we stay civil it makes us all better. Drink multi-sylabic beer and carry on.
 
I'll offer up a little bit here, because I agree with fattony in that all buildings are value engineered from the get go. They all start with a budget and a desired outcome. The architect is then charged with designing a building that meets those goals. Certain SF of leasable space, or certain number of units, all under this estimated budget.

The architect designs their building with that budget in mind, and thinks they are presenting something that works. They try their best to include certain touches, or things that harken back to this, or pays homage to that, or maybe just adds a bit of whimsy. Whether at the end of the day anyone else likes it is a different story, they are trying to squeeze some personality into a building.

The VE I'm usually referring to is what happens next. The SD or DD docs go out for estimates that come back too high. Then all the personality starts to get scraped away, and we end up with the VE'd to death final products often referred to.

I don't think anyone here is under the assumption that an architect is hired and given a blank canvas and a blank check and told to "create Michelangelo". The design from the get go is informed by the realities of the budget, the cost of labor and materials, and the ROI for their boss (the developer.) They try to do the best with what is available, and then they open themselves up to our keyboard critics on boards like this, and Globe comment sections. All the while doing their best to stand behind their creation, despite it often times not really reflecting their original vision.

That's what I mean by VE, but that's just me.
 
I've always seen VE'd more as a critique of developers trying to maximize profit rather than a shot at the designers.

I'm sure there are plenty of cases where a project will net a loss without VE but I would be very surprised if there weren't more than a few cases where the developer could have made a better building and still took home a healthy profit.

Edit to add: I always forget this, but sometimes it's not even the developers themselves but the lending agents that insist on certain cash flows estimates (for 'risk') from developers so even developer's hands are tied.
 
I've always seen VE'd more as a critique of developer trying to maximize profit rather than a shot at the designers.

I'm sure there are plenty of cases where a project will net a loss without VE but I would be very surprised if there weren't more than a few cases where the developer could have made a better building and still took home a healthy profit.

I don't think it's a case of a developer making a loss or less profit in a lot of cases (admittedly a lot of developers only care about the bottom line regardless) but more whether the project can be financed.

If there's not a significant margin for the developer then he's not going to get the equity and debt needed to complete the project.
 

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