NEMA Boston | 399 Congress St. | Seaport

Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

It's got two, I believe. Unfortunately the owner of one of them was just arrested for massive credit card fraud.

Uhhh...that adds character, right?

(Much more than mere tax evasion a la Toscanini's)
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

Carrav., fascinating. Can you get more recent data?
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

Progress really is slow as hell in Boston. I see construction in other cities in other forums and they change all the time. Maybe in other cities suburban growth is high so urban growth is slower but in Boston there's neither. And NYC, Chicago, LA, Miami, and even SF have a ton of growth, much more then Boston. I hate to be pessimistic but in NYC, you can feel the construction everywhere, with new buildings, recladdings, and renovations. Boston is stagnant because of high NIMBY power and ultra-slow bureaucracy. Yeah it may have one or two towers going up, but there doesn't seem to be any enthusiasm for them, and most have crappy design and are watered down by ridiculous regulations, extreme NIMBYism, and mayorial politics. LA doesn't have any of those, in fact they're correcting their suburban mistakes and rapidly urbanizing their core with a new subway, many new highrises, and transit-orientated development. Which brings me to this point, the T sucks! North Station metro station is just 2 years old, yet it already looks old and run-down. South Station is the only good metro station IMO, all the others look like CRAP (like the new MGH station, how come they didn't cover the whole platform with glass, the floor's already dirty, and the T font looks pretty bad and lots of old stations are brutalist masterpieces that don't actually work well for the commuter).

Don't be too hard on Boston. Just look at the threads in this site. There is a lot going on. Sure it is not on the level of Chicago, NYC and LA. But they are much larger cities. Miami is an anomaly. Isolated condo towers with no interaction with the street is not my idea of construction that is needed in Boston. I'm not sure about SF. I'm sure NIMBYs are present there also. Speaking of which, it is all a matter of perspective, Stockholm puts Boston NIMBYs to shame since a 10 story building is a skyscraper that will soar over the city. Despite this, Stockholm is still a beautiful and immensely walkable city. Boston shouldn't be the fastest to build but it should do it right.

The T may be a bit rundown but it is really incredibly affordable when you compared with subways worldwide. How about $8 for one way on the Tube. (BTW, London underground stations are not the picture of beauty either.)
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

.... I'm not sure about SF. I'm sure NIMBYs are present there also. ...

More than NIMBYs in Baghdad by the Bay.
From the NY Times 25 years ago:
But the new San Francisco plan makes a serious attempt to limit the total amount of growth that will come to downtown San Francisco. Not only does it limit the size of individual buildings, but it specifies, more precisely than most cities have done, where large buildings can and cannot be built. If the plan is adopted, San Francisco's downtown, so altered in the last decade, will not freeze, but it will never again change so cataclysmically. The plan allows for new construction, but it encourages the siting of new skyscrapers in the area south of Market Street, just south of the financial district's present heart. Towers may be built in the present downtown center only if they conform to stricter height limitations and do not, of course, necessitate the demolition of any of the buildings earmarked for preservation.

....San Francisco's limitations are dramatic - skyscraper size will be sharply reduced, and the density of downtown blocks is to be strongly limited. On the other hand, the planners in San Francisco have not tried to force building plans that are now in the ''pipeline'' to conform to the new rules. While they have argued for a moratorium on approvals of new skyscrapers until the rules are passed, they are not asking that construction of buildings already in process of approval be held up.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...931A35753C1A965948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=3

But three years later, San Francisco voters imposed a draconian moratorium on skyscrapers, allowing but one mid-rise tower per year to be built.

San Francisco is unique in that there are only three roads into the city, and each offers a panoramic view of the skyline:

From the south on Highway 101:
SNAG-01712.jpg


From the east on the Bay Bridge:
SNAG-01714.jpg


From the north on the Golden Gate Bridge:
SNAG-01715.jpg


(Views courtesy of Google streetview.) I think San Franciscans have always been very aware and very sensitive to the city skyline. If it turns out badly, there is no escaping it if you live there.
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

So how did Bank of America get in there? Or is it the cause of all this machination? All by itself, it wrecks this city's skyline.

Also: aren't they now planning one or more thousand-footers? Guess they got bored with their plateau skyline. Isn't it time Boston did the same?
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

So how did Bank of America get in there? Or is it the cause of all this machination? All by itself, it wrecks this city's skyline.

Also: aren't they now planning one or more thousand-footers? Guess they got bored with their plateau skyline. Isn't it time Boston did the same?

I'm not sure that the Transbay tower or any other government-owned tower is covered by the height restriction or caps on new buildings. Below is an article from Time, supposedly dated April 12, 2005, that discusses San Francisco's restrictions and limits. (The article has Feinstein as being the mayor, but by 2005, she had long been in the U.S. Senate. So perhaps 2005 is the Time archiving date.)

San Francisco is a self-consciously civilized place, pleased by its reasonable scale and unreasonable hills, proud of the slightly loopy beaux arts buildings and the great swaths of pastel houses, altogether seduced by its own fey charms. It follows that San Francisco has a powerful sense of how San Francisco ought to look, and the new ungainly downtown skyline offends that civic vision.


Townspeople elsewhere merely carp about glass boxes and pine for the architectural past. San Franciscans have taken action. Earlier this month the board of supervisors passed an elaborate set of rules governing development in the 470-acre urban heart. The new code, sponsored by

Mayor Dianne Feinstein, is more prescriptive and restrictive than any other ever adopted by an American city. At once radical and conservative, the Downtown Plan will permit only a couple of new towers to be built in the dense center of downtown. It will limit large-scale building citywide to an annual aggregate of 950,000 sq. ft., the equivalent of two or three medium-size office towers a year, and push the locus of that new development southward into a shabbier quarter. Most intriguing are the provisions that will halve the bulk of new buildings and essentially require that every new skyscraper have stepped setbacks, surface ornament and a decoratively tapered top. Barring an unlikely reversal at the final vote next month, modernism is about to be outlawed in San Francisco.


In ideology the Downtown Plan is sensibly deferential to the existing warp and woof of the city. In ambition, however, it is reminiscent of the Olympian urban-renewal texts of a generation ago, when planners presumed to know how to recast cities from scratch. It puts the city on record against unnecessary shadow and wind and disapproves of mirrored windows (visually off-putting), big street-level airline ticket offices (too boring for pedestrians) and the profusion of newspaper-vending machines (inconvenient for pedestrians). No San Franciscan, the plan continues, should have to walk more than 900 feet to find a sunny, comfortable place to sit and muse.


Yet the plan is not gratuitous Utopian tinkering. There was plenty of provocation. After two drowsy decades when the city escaped the depredations of bargain-basement modernism, growth came all at once. Between 1965 and 1981, office space downtown more than doubled, to 55 million sq. ft. During the past three years alone, an additional 10 million sq. ft. of high-rise offices were finished. The result was flat gray street walls hundreds of feet high, darkness, traffic clots, noise: "Manhattanization," as the locals call it.


In fact it is Manhattanization of a more romantic kind that the architectural guidelines--expressly seek. San Francisco's stylistic models are the great tapering spires of the 1920s and early '30s--Chrysler, Empire State--that followed New York's own seminal zoning law. Ironically, those epochal skyscrapers would not be permitted by San Francisco's new height limits. North of Market Street, the city's main commercial boulevard, a post-plan building can rise only about 30 stories. Even south of Market, where the planners intend to encourage new construction, no skyscraper will be much more than 40 stories, and a slender 40 stories at that. Henceforth, "distinctive" building tops are obligatory--parapets, domes, obelisks, the fancier the better. Pilasters and serious cornices, both virtually prohibited until now, have been declared virtuous. Says Planning Director Dean Macris: "We think it is time for a departure from the International Style."


New buildings will hark back to the old, and bona fide old buildings will be saved from demolition. The plan labels 250 downtown buildings "significant" and inviolable and uses a clever mechanism for compensating owners of those urban museum pieces. The trick is "transferable development rights": the owners of the old Curran Theater, for instance, cannot tear down the theater, but they could sell the hypothetical air rights to a developer across town.


Taken together, local architects and builders reckon, the rules will add between 5% and 10% to the cost of construction. A separate, crypto-Scandinavian set of provisions will add another 10%: a developer will be obliged to pay about $9 per sq. ft. to subsidize mass transit, build a new downtown park and child-care centers, and buy art for the building's public spaces.


What price charm? The 950,000-sq.ft. annual building cap, a recent addition to the plan as a sop to the strong local anti-growth sentiment, does not really seem so onerous. "The plan puts a definite damper on development, and I think that's good," says Mayor Feinstein. "This is a small and delicate city. I'm only sorry it took us so long to learn that lesson."


More problematic than the cap itself will be administering it. Vast power will devolve on the planning director. Of ten buildings proposed next year, say, how to choose which two or three get the go-ahead? How to prevent favoritism and influence buying? Macris says he may assemble a panel of nationally well-known architects to do the judging for the city. The mandarin bureaucracy grows.


Still, the scheme is right minded. For all their controversy, the guidelines tend only to codify San Francisco's natural inclination toward the picturesque and small scale, the quaint and the quirky. "San Francisco," says Jeffrey Heller, a politically nimble local architect, "has always been a fussy and difficult place to build."
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1048373,00.html

The San Francisco Downtown Plan may still be in place.
http://www.sfgov.org/site/planning_index.asp?id=25010
Of note in the Downtown Plan is the preservation of architecturally distinctive buildings. SC&L almost certainly could not be demolished in San Francisco.

A Boston-based assessment of the San Francisco Downtown Plan, wiith cryptic comments by Robert Campbell, can be found here:
http://www.spur.org/documents/990801_article_03.shtm
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

Let me start with a disclaimer: I'm not at all familiar with San Francisco on a personal level. I only know what I've seen on TV and read about the city (which probably isn't as much as it should be).

That being said, it seems there are a lot of holes in this plan (as well as a lot of familiar arguments). First, it seems almost irresponsible to say, "The plan puts a definite damper on development and I think that's good." Development should ALWAYS be encouraged; it should just be managed in ways that are appropriate. Anyone who has any basic knowledge of economics knows that this stuff is cyclical; while demand may be sky-high now, it may be gone in a decade or two. Restricting development to under 1,000,000 sq feet may drive potential business out of the area that could be beneficial in the future.

As someone who was raised outside of major urban areas mostly (2 years in Kensington, MD- an urban Washington, D.C. suburb and 1 year on George St. in Providence- not exactly "dense" up there), I can only imagine how much open space matters to the people who live in densely populated areas (especially one like San Francisco), but an open area every "900 feet" seems obnoxious if they plan to adhere strictly to that. There are plenty of beautiful areas in San Francisco's suburbs for people to live if they need that open space.

Demanding tapered towers, and spires that "harken back to the old days" may sound noble, but who in their right mind is going to spend tons of extra money to dress up a pre-capped amount of space? Sometimes the beauty of a building is how well it plays the role of "filler." not every building needs to scream, "look at me! look at me!" The spires that marked the Manhattan skyline of the 20's and 30's were far and away better than what's being built today, but there's a reason for that. Towers back then were not only functional in terms of creating vast space to work or live in, but they were about leaving the developer's mark on the skyline. As a result, the person financing spared no expense to have an ornately detailed tower build. Times change; much more emphasis is on the functionality of a tower than the appearance. There's plenty of emphasis on looks in towers today, but the goals are different than they were in the 20's; instead of ornately decorated facades, architects focus on extreme engineering like the Turning Torso in Sweden, or Montvedo in Rotterdam, or 30 St. Mary Axe in London, or Kingdom Center in Riyadh. It's just different now than it was then; how many buildings do you see being build with 3.6 million manually laid bricks (Chrysler Building)? Maybe I'm way off, but Ms. Feinstein's request seems restrictive and unrealistic.

Again, I have no more knowledge of San Francisco than anyone else, but this scheme seems "radical and conservative" in all the wrong ways.
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

^^^^
Be careful what you wish for. This is the top of the big Marriott in downtown San Francisco, presumably designed with the crown or hat in mind. Once built, the locals took an immense dislike, comparing it to a jukebox.

sfodt_phototour01.jpg


This is the new Millennium building; good-bye clever hat.
169714094_fc1a7cb0f0_o.jpg
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

That's funny, I actually stayed in that Mariott a few months ago. IMO, that area south of Market St is pretty boring and not that attractive. I have been to San Fran a couple of times, and, although I think it is nice and liveable, it is the most overrated city I have ever been to. The scenary of the bay and the enormous bridges just doesn't do it for me anymore and that's why it gets so much praise. It's like "Sorry that my city of Boston doesn't have the need for such large bridges". I don't get how these "committees" rank it higher than Boston in terms of worldliness and importance. It's just not true.

Oh, and the term "Bagdhad by the Bay" is so true. I have heard many people refer to it that way.

But to get back on topic, I like the renderings of the Madison. It's too bad about the lack of Street interaction, but it is going to take years for any street life to become present there. Fortunately, the density is filling in rapidly down there. A very very very mini Dubai anyone? :)
 
"Bagdhad by the Bay"

Why is San Francisco called "Bagdhad by the Bay"?
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

Congress_2_979.jpg


I don't understand the bottom of this building? Why is it blank?
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

I think the first several floors are parking. The hotel sits on top of the parking garage.
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

its actually loaded with dormant rocket boosters.
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

Or the secret location of BU's experimental anthrax lab.
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

I don't get how these "committees" rank it higher than Boston in terms of worldliness and importance. It's just not true.

It's more worldly in the way that the affluent (who tend to govern such sentiments) prefer to experience cosmopolitanism - it's a capital of haute-cuisine, near wine country, proximate to the billionaire innovators of Silicon Valley. Its ethnic profile (large Asian and Hispanic populations) has been established much longer than Boston's, and the city is the financial capital of the West Coast (whereas Boston suffers slightly by being so close to New York).

Boston, too, has a degree of affluent cosmopolitanism, mostly drawn from its universities. San Francisco, however, draws just as many foreign students and notable scholars to its nearby institutions. The rest of what makes Boston worldly - its immigrant population of Cape Verdeans, Dominicans, Vietnamese, etc. - is a recent phenomenon that remains unacknowledged in the rest of the country, and goes unnoticed by the wealthy even in New England.

Why is San Francisco called "Bagdhad by the Bay"?

I think it refers to its decadence (the Baghdad reference having more to do with ancient Babylon and old orientalist stereotypes about "the East" and its harems). SF had a lot of whorehouses and seedy flop hotels back in the day...and homosexuality was considered in the same light.
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

San Francisco, however, draws just as many foreign students and notable scholars to its nearby institutions.

Really? I doubt that SF, with few internationally known universities (I could only think of Berkely off the top of my head) draws "just as many foreign students and notable scholars to its nearby institutions". It just can't compete with Boston's 50+ well known universities, and which notable scholars work in SF or do speaking engagments there? In Boston we have one of the greatest concentrations of minds in the world, we have many internationally known professors, much more then ANY OTHER CITY and when intellectuals (not really normal people, they don't care that much about this) hear Boston, they know about the hundreds of thought-provoking scholars, professors, and universities in the area, making Eastern Massachusetts truly a global center of learning and SF just can't compete.
Just like Boston can't compete with NY, SF can't compete with Boston. They may look a little similar, but Boston is ahead in so many ways. See the positive aspects of Boston, don't just trash it with no proof, sources, or reasoning.
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

I'm not trashing it. I'm answering your question - why there's this perspective that San Francisco is more influential and cosmopolitan. That's why your objective take - Boston has more local universities than the Bay Area (which is certainly contestable given the number of UC campuses in that region), doesn't really hold. Get in a taxi in Tokyo and say you're from Boston and the response might be "Oh, Boston. Harvard and MIT!" SF is similarly known for Berkeley and (a little place you forgot) - Stanford. Of course, many of these people know Boston also contains BU and BC and the like; they're just not included in the shorthand.
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

Really? I doubt that SF, with few internationally known universities (I could only think of Berkely off the top of my head)

Stanford. Sure, it's in Palo Alto rather than SF, but a number of our famous colleges are outside the city center too (Tufts, Brandeis, Wellesley).
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

I wish people would stop feeling personally insulted whenever Boston was criticized or compared unfavorably to another city.

Also, the Boston VS (x)city pissing contests become tiresome quickly.
 
Re: Madison Seaport Hotel

A crappy design deserves a crappy comment:

It sure does suck that the ground floors of the Madison Seaport Hotel are a concrete bunker of a parking garage. Sucksucksucksuck.

And to think, a sentient human being made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to wall off the bottom 3(?) floors with a parking lot. To the architect: Kill yourself.
 

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