Re: Somerville Soccer Stadium
You keep calling Boston a bad market for soccer but your evidence boils down to people not liking the Revolution and one singular person not buying the team from Bob Kraft. These are not compelling arguments against a soccer franchise being able to succeed or find a following in Boston,
Actually, my evidence boils down to:
- The limited to nonexistent media coverage the Revolution receive relative to all other major league sports and college athletics
- The limited to nonexistent community engagement by the Revolution, e.g., events such as the World Cup viewing party (the only notable example of an event put on by the Revs that I can actually find), and this extends to
- The limited to nonexistent efforts by the Revolution to build their base or gather support in ways that do not require a stadium move right now, including but not limited to increased efforts to utilize available infrastructure to move Revs fans to the stadium in larger numbers
- The limited to nonexistent progress on any sort of stadium move to anywhere in spite of the supposed demand for a move
- And, yes, the limited interest in the Revs displayed by the general public.
particularly because the main reason the Revolution don't have a following is because of this stadium situation we have been discussing.
Building a stadium doesn't fix the Revolution's shit product. Building a better team does.
Building a stadium doesn't fix the Revolution's shit media support. Creating and putting to work an actual substantial media arm and making your presence known on local media does.
Building a stadium doesn't fix the Revolution's failure to engage with its host community. Stepping up community outreach and organized events beyond the World Cup fixation once every four years does.
About the only thing building a stadium actually fixes that you can't fix in any other way is the attendance problem, but even that could be mitigated ahead of a new stadium by doing more to make the current stadium accessible, such as, oh I don't know,
maybe actually fucking running any soccer train whatsoever, let alone a decent number of pre- and post-game round trips?!
These are literally insane ramblings.
I'll take this as you conceding the point.
Well there is a lot stopping us from using the commuter rail like rapid transit actually. A trip within the MBTA rapid transit system is always going to be more convenient and more importantly perceived to be more convenient.
Perception is something that can be changed through advertising, and the assertion of actual convenience is something you can't back up.
5+ Peak TPH in each direction is already here on Metro-North (and 8+ is coming sooner rather than later), 8+ Peak TPH is already here on the Long Island Island Railroad, and 6~8+ TPH will be coming to the MBTA Commuter Rail sooner rather than later. Increasing demand and modernization of service
will bring us to the point that commuter rail trips are just as convenient as rapid transit trips. It is inevitable.
A major league franchise would not be able to succeed in Providence.
[citation needed]
This is not only because it would have problems with making money in Providence
[citation needed]
but also because it would have problems with competing against other teams in the league which would all have much greater resources.
[citation needed]
I am not going to repeat this again and no one else in this thread should have to either.
And yet, here you are, replying to me, again. And I'm going to set the over/under on your next reply to me at about... oh, let's say 8 hours from now. Any takers?
The eve of the move? What move? Where are you getting this stuff?
As far as I can tell - and maybe you can find some contradicting press releases, but I couldn't - the MLS have given no real indication that they actually care what happens to the Revs, beyond general support for a soccer stadium and general "we support Bob Kraft in whatever he does" rhetoric.
In essence, the MLS is at least giving the appearance that it couldn't possibly care less if the Revolution spend another two or three decades languishing in Foxboro, fishing for the perfect deal.
Now, if negotiations for a stadium in Providence seriously move forward, if we get to the point where a deal is in place and the contracts are being signed and the ceremonial groundbreaking is 24 hours away, and that's the moment that Don Garber decides to say "hold up, we're not going to support this" ... well, as I said, I'd be shocked.
You are missing the point. You are the only one going on about a top ten list of cities and its because you have a persecution complex about Providence.
The problem is ANYTHING compared to Foxboro is a win. Hell, even Quincy would be better.
Saying Providence is the best option because Foxboro is lousy is an exceptional case of tunnel vision. It is a waste of time to claim that Providence's only competition is Foxboro. Providence would be, at best, a 5th or 6th option behind Boston, Cambridge, Somerville, Revere and Quincy.
All irrelevant, MLS is looking to expand back to an area where they failed primarily to cover a major media market. Boston is one of the top media markets and MLS would want a team there, especially over Providence which is like 50 and has negligible corporate presence.
Because one of the largest pharmacy chains in the country (CVS Caremark Corportation), one of the oldest and largest construction firms in the country (Gilbane), one of the largest toy manufacturers in the world (Hasbro), the leading national distributor of organic foods (UNFI), and many other major and minor corporations that have chosen to headquarter in Providence and around Rhode Island makes for for "negligible corporate presence." Right, got it.
A soccer team in Boston is going to get corporate money and sponsorships and people will attend their games.
So too will a team in Providence.
If people watch the EPL (or the Bundesliga or La Liga or whatever European league is at the top at the moment) they aren't going to be attending games and they aren't going to all be supporting one team in significant numbers above the Boston soccer team. Frankly, if someone watches a European league they are likely to support their local soccer team as well.
The product isn't even comparable between the soccer being played abroad and the soccer being played by the Revs. Throughout this entire debate I've repeatedly brought up the fact that a relocation does nothing to address the fact that the Revs field a shitty team, and absolutely nobody should be expecting a move downtown to solve the problems of a bad product or an uncaring ownership. Conversely, the shitty product could be fixed right now with more and better investment into the Revs by the ownership, and more and better investment by the Revs into the community. None of that is happening.
You all, as Revs fans, should be livid that Kraft continues to tread water in just about everything Revs related. You oughta be pissed that they have consistently underwhelming off-seasons and continue to field a mediocre team that goes nowhere and wins little, year after year after year. You oughta be asking why the Revs have to wait for a move downtown for the team to suddenly get better, and you shouldn't be willing to just take it at face value that a more accessible stadium inside of 128 is going to suddenly cause every other problem with the Revs to fix itself.
People keep saying that Providence is not a part of the Boston market because it is an objective fact. Look at this
link; Providence is listed separately.
Nielsen's got Baltimore and Washington as separate markets, which isn't really the case. They've got Madison and Milwaukee as separate markets, which also isn't really the case.
Just because Nielsen is choosing to track ratings for them separately doesn't make them separate markets.
Bob Kraft was using Hartford (and... Providence) as a negotiation tactic.
Sure, but that kind of negotiation tactic doesn't work unless he was seriously willing to go through with it. And, right up until construction in Hartford hit a roadblock at the same time Massachusetts realized he was absolutely serious about following through if they didn't cough up what he was asking for and scrambled to make a bad deal to keep the Patriots in Foxboro, he was absolutely willing to go through with it.
No you can't promise that.
I absolutely can promise that. You can choose not to trust me, and we'll just have to wait and see.
No one moves their sports franchise just to think things out. Thats not a viable business strategy.
No, people move their sports franchises because it makes economic sense for them to do so, either because the grass is greener somewhere else or because they can't afford the impact of staying put.
Even if and when the front office gets serious about the Revolution (which, again, can happen without a stadium move), there's still the glaring issue of a disaffected media, which is Issue-with-a-capital-I #1 for the Revs right now.
And if moving to Providence allows them to grow their media presence while also generating a response akin to LA with the NFL (e.g. "Hey! Wait! Nobody said you could leave!"), if the move actually strengthens their positioning in the Boston market thanks to the separation (and, from there, Boston trying to lure the Revs back) - then it's absolutely a viable business strategy.
Well, Foxboro is in the same media market as Boston. But all the others are different markets so they differ a lot in their ability to support a sports franchise.
See above, re: Providence as a part of Boston's media market.
This is a ridiculous argument.
That's not an answer. But if your issue is that I've singled John Henry out as the guy in the best position to either expand MLS in Boston or buy out Kraft from the Revs, let me expand the question.
Why hasn't anyone else come forward with attempts to buy the Revs or start an MLS expansion franchise in downtown Boston?
Columbus: 32nd media market, population 1,967,066
Kansas City: 31st media market, population 2,343,008
Salt Lake City: 33rd media market, population 1,140,483
Providence: 53rd media market, population 1,630,956
So Providence has a population thats larger than Salt Lake City and approaches Columbus. Except that both cities have significantly more powerful media markets and exert much larger regional influence. Also all those cities you mentioned have a history of supporting major league sports franchises and Providence hasn't had one since 1885.
So what? It doesn't necessarily follow that no attempts to house a major league franchise in Providence means that any attempt to house a major league franchise in Providence would be an automatic failure.
Show me the hard numbers that say the potential earning power here is insufficient to support a major league franchise. Show me the math that proves a move to Providence will be a money loser.
I don't think that you can.
LA Galaxy II?
Louisville City SC?
I am sure that a Boston soccer team can form some sort of affiliation with a lower division team in Providence. Especially because they already have such an association with the Rochester Rhinos.
Affiliations between teams, even in leagues and countries such as the US where promotion and relegation are not in use, are far more fluid than the traditional farm system pairing of minor league -> major league team. The concept of "loaning" players between soccer teams is also something unique to this particular sport, and loans of players between leagues is something notably distinct from the traditional idea of calling up players or sending them down.
The closest thing to a traditional minor league team that soccer has is the concept of a reserve team, but even this isn't a straight analogue - and the MLS choosing to try and integrate reserve team play into the USL Pro, or the LA Galaxy outright incorporating their reserve team into the USL Pro, is in no way indicative that Minor League Soccer is in US Soccer's future.
There's always going to be unaffiliated USL Pro teams, USL Pro teams affiliated with an MLS franchise whose reserve team is competing in interleague play against the USL Pro, shifting affiliations, and it's unlikely that the NASL (the division II league - remember, USL pro is division III) is going to follow suit behind the USL Pro in a wave of affiliation establishments with the goal of approximating a soccer feeder system.
Thank you for making my point that Providence is not a major league franchise city. The two teams you referenced are Boston MINOR league affiliates.
BOOM! Ya got me there! Way to turn my own argument right back on me!
Too bad it wasn't the argument that I was actually making, though. The argument I was making is that there are strong market ties between Providence and Boston, and the minor league affiliations help prove that. The Revs in Providence would still be part of the Boston media market.
In fact, Providence "is not a major league franchise city" only in the sense that no major league franchise currently exists there. This is in no way indicative of any particular inability for the city to host a major league franchise successfully.
And, no. Bostonians will not take Amtrak to Providence to see a soccer game. That is an idea completely devoid of reality.
Of course not. They'd take the commuter rail.
The only thing about Providence you can be confident about is that Buddy Cianci will be taking yet another oath of office in city hall next January. That in and of itself is reason for any major league owner to stay clear.
Because Boston and Massachusetts politicians are all totally devoid of corruption and criminal scandal! Why, never in the history of Beacon Hill has a politician ever done anything even remotely unsavory! And nobody ever has gone to jail.
Oh, wait...
I do like Providence. It has some great restaurants, nice architecture and a lovely downtown water walk. But for a sports franchise to make major league money there is impossible.
[citation needed]
And if Providence is such an enthusiastic and outstanding soccer market compared to Boston, why do the Revs have such lousy attendance when Foxboro is a mere 20 miles from Providence but 30 miles from Boston? Looks like the problem is that the Revs play too close to Providence and not close enough to Boston.
Whoa, sick QED. That's twice in a row you've burned me on an argument I wasn't actually making.
Providence is a growth market, and soccer has a much better chance to grow in Providence. That doesn't mean that the market is right there, right now, and I never said that it was.
What I have said, and what nobody here seems to be willing or able to refute, is that the market demonstrably is
not there in Boston, despite claims of Foxboro having stronger ties to the Boston market than Providence does. I have said, and I maintain, that a brand-spankin'-new stadium will do jack and shit to solve the problems of a disaffected media, disaffected fanbase, disaffected community, and shit product. And four out of four those problems are things that could be partially fixed or mitigated right now without a stadium! Yet the Revs continue to have no community presence, the media continues to provide virtually zero coverage and support of the team, the ownership continues to provide a shit product and the fanbase refuses to hold them accountable even by doing the one thing that should be really fucking easy for them to do considering how difficult it apparently is to get to Gillette and stop putting 15,000 butts in the seats every home game!
The argument that soccer can't do as well in Boston because the EPL exists is ridiculous. I know a ton of die hard Premiere League fans that would kill for the Revs to have a stadium on transit near the city.
Liking the EPL doesn't mean you wouldn't also go to local games.
Do me a favor, and poll these people for me.
Ask them what their opinion of the Revs product is - not the stadium or lack thereof, not even necessarily the branding, but the team that they field every game. Ask them if they would rather watch an EPL game or a Revs game, and ask them just how many home games they would actually go to.
You can even tell them some mean old jerk from the internet is trying to take their team away, if it makes it easier to get them to answer.
I haven't been following this thread incredibly closely, but it seems to me that some of these arguments are based on the idea that what happens to the Revs is based on what is in the Krafts best interest. Shouldn't the argument be framed as what's in the best interest of the MLS since MLS technically own the Revs?
I don't know the correct answer to that question and imagine none of us do, but that seems to be what we should be debating rather than what's in the best interest of the Krafts.
I'll wait to see if Proposition Joe can find anything from the front desk of MLS to the tune of "The stadium move is taking too long" or "We're deeply concerned about the progress by the Revolution" or anything else more substantial than a general "Kraft can do whatever Kraft wants to do and we're behind him."
Absent that, the best of interest of the MLS is to move
anywhere and a move really needed to happen four or five years ago. I believe and maintain that it's in the best interest of the Revs/the MLS/the Krafts to move to Providence tomorrow if the other options are all "stay put for the next 20+ years AND THEN..."
