New Red and Orange Line Cars

[Jahvon09]

If the June 2019 Red line derailment wasn't enough to knock that idea through the hard hats and thick skulls of MBTA management, I don't know that this, or what, will.

I strongly believe that one was caused by negligence on THEIR part. They are their own worst enemy!! That could've been taken care of BEFORE that happened. Also, stuff like that comes from using decades-old equipment. The new equipment is supposed to help prevent that from happening.

Meanwhile, the old stuff on both the Red & Oranges Lines seem to be saying; Not so fast! Hah!! Thought that you were getting rid of us, huh?!! Well, we're gonna be around here longer. You're stuck with us until I say that you get rid of us!! Hah!!"

 

[Jahvon09]

 

[Jahvon09]

Supposedly, the engineers at the MBTA found another problem, whatever it is. Seems they're not saying what, but supposedly, this month was when the new trains would be put back in service, according to the officials. The month is almost over now. It has gone from May to June, to whatever month. Maybe July. Not complaining though.

 

[ant8904]

So it's August now. I have to ask, the newest news article I can find was June 7, the incident itself was back in March. Is there any rumors? Idea on how the investigation works that gives us any guestimate how much longer? Is this starting to reach a point we should start getting worried?

 

[Jahvon09]

All that I keep on getting when I go to Google is that the MBTA is not ready to release the new cars back to service yet. They're not saying if or when their investigation will be completed, nor the outcome of it. Nothing is coming out of the offices yet. No date or anything as to when the new cars will be back on the tracks again. The only thing that I saw is when all of the new cars will be aquired, which is next year for all of the OL cars & about '24 for all of the RL cars.

 

[HelloBostonHi]

So it's August now. I have to ask, the newest news article I can find was June 7, the incident itself was back in March. Is there any rumors? Idea on how the investigation works that gives us any guestimate how much longer? Is this starting to reach a point we should start getting worried?

Absolutely no word from officials since June but the latest unofficial update is they were seen on the MBTA data feed overnight this week for the first time since March, which is how they originally began testing before revenue service the first time.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1424014398314754050

 

[Draw7]

I don't know if this means anything or not, but it appears as though deliveries resumed in June per NETransit. Surely that cannot be a bad sign?

 

[Jahvon09]

I don't know if this means anything or not, but it appears as though deliveries resumed in June per NETransit. Surely that cannot be a bad sign?

I think that the T is comitted to the trains. They WILL still be receiving them. I also believe that CRRC is working with the agency to make them better & safer, to fix the constant problems that they are having once & for all. This has happened with some of the Type 8 trolleys & the Type 6 Boeing trolleys were a living nightmare. But the T needs to be more careful about buying public transit vehicles though. Most of them have been flops!

 

[Brattle Loop]

I think that the T is comitted to the trains. They WILL still be receiving them. I also believe that CRRC is working with the agency to make them better & fix the constant problems that they are having once & for all. This has happened with some of the Type 8 trolleys & the Type 6 Boeing trolleys were a living nightmare. But the T needs to be more careful about buying public trasit vehicles though. Most of them have been flops!

Out of curiosity, what has the T bought that can be accurately described as flops other than the Boeing LRVs and the Bredas? The Boeings (which as far as I know never received the "Type" designation reserved for Boston-specific cars) were a disaster of a federal program built by a helicopter-making defense contractor who had no business building LRVs, and as I understand it were essentially foisted on the T basically as a condition of receiving federal funding for new vehicles. The Bredas were the perhaps unsurprising outcome of asking an untested manufacturer to build the Green Line's first low-floor cars, leading to the shall-we-say "beta version" center truck design responsible for their tendency to jump the track at the slightest provocation.

It's still too early to lump the CRRC cars in with either of those procurements, and nothing else they've bought in recent years comes anywhere near Boeing/Breda levels of disastrous problems.

 

[The EGE]

Neither the Rotem coaches nor the Neoplan dual-mode buses went particularly well. (Hopefully the +80 contract with Rotem, scheduled for delivery in 2022-24, will go better.)

 

[Brattle Loop]

Neither the Rotem coaches nor the Neoplan dual-mode buses went particularly well. (Hopefully the +80 contract with Rotem, scheduled for delivery in 2022-24, will go better.)

And that's me ignoring the buses and the CR because I'd misread the post I was replying to and read "public transit" as "rapid transit".

I know the Rotems had a bunch of teething problems (I swear 802 tried to kill me one time) though I didn't think they reached Boeing/Breda levels of problems. It's a good point about the (similarly-unicorn) dual-modes, didn't those things basically run Neoplan out of business?

 

[Jahvon09]

Out of curiosity, what has the T bought that can be accurately described as flops other than the Boeing LRVs and the Bredas? The Boeings (which as far as I know never received the "Type" designation reserved for Boston-specific cars) were a disaster of a federal program built by a helicopter-making defense contractor who had no business building LRVs, and as I understand it were essentially foisted on the T basically as a condition of receiving federal funding for new vehicles. The Bredas were the perhaps unsurprising outcome of asking an untested manufacturer to build the Green Line's first low-floor cars, leading to the shall-we-say "beta version" center truck design responsible for their tendency to jump the track at the slightest provocation.

It's still too early to lump the CRRC cars in with either of those procurements, and nothing else they've bought in recent years comes anywhere near Boeing/Breda levels of disastrous problems.

Weren't they evenually name Type 6?

 

[Jahvon09]

Out of curiosity, what has the T bought that can be accurately described as flops other than the Boeing LRVs and the Bredas? The Boeings (which as far as I know never received the "Type" designation reserved for Boston-specific cars) were a disaster of a federal program built by a helicopter-making defense contractor who had no business building LRVs, and as I understand it were essentially foisted on the T basically as a condition of receiving federal funding for new vehicles. The Bredas were the perhaps unsurprising outcome of asking an untested manufacturer to build the Green Line's first low-floor cars, leading to the shall-we-say "beta version" center truck design responsible for their tendency to jump the track at the slightest provocation.

It's still too early to lump the CRRC cars in with either of those procurements, and nothing else they've bought in recent years comes anywhere near Boeing/Breda levels of disastrous problems.

All along since their debut into revenue service, they were just a tease, getting riders all hyped up for the new vehicles, only to be screwed multiple times by constant breakdowns & being taken out of service. Sure, everyone had welcomed them with open arms over the extremely problematic decades-old trains, because of that, we're right back to Square One, still dealing with breakdowns & delays While there appears to be a stuggle getting the new trains to perform properly. Looks like we won't see them come back until next year somtime at this point.

 

[Brattle Loop]

Weren't they evenually name Type 6?

I've only ever heard the "Type 6" designation applied to the half-car mockup at Seashore, never the Boeings. (Sort of like how the PCCs never got a "Type" designator either.)

All along since their debut into revenue service, they were just a tease, getting riders all hyped up for the new vehicles, only to be screwed multiple times by constant breakdowns & being taken out of service. Sure, everyone had welcomed them with open arms over the extremely problematic decades-old trains, because of that, we're right back to Square One, still dealing with breakdowns & delays While there appears to be a stuggle getting the new trains to perform properly. Looks like we won't see them come back until next year somtime at this point.

I'm not unaware of their technical issues. I am curious, because I don't have access to sufficient information to make a determination, about whether the CRRC cars have had more and/or more severe entry-into-service problems than other equipment. It's unambiguously the case, in my opinion, that they haven't had anything like the problems that the Bredas or the Boeings had.

That said, I am of the opinion that the CRRC cars' rollout was mishandled from a PR/customer service standpoint. They absolutely hyped their arrival and EIS, I wouldn't be particularly surprised if some politics went into that decision, or at least if they chose the quick-hit PR win over perhaps a lower-profile EIS. I think the fact that they were at the very least implying that these cars were here, running, and perfect when they were essentially still in beta testing mode was a mistake that exacerbated the public displeasure at the nigh-inevitable problems that come with introducing new equipment. It's still quite early in their service lives to be condemning them as opposed to the marketing strategy around their rollout.

 

[Jahvon09]

I've only ever heard the "Type 6" designation applied to the half-car mockup at Seashore, never the Boeings. (Sort of like how the PCCs never got a "Type" designator either.)



I'm not unaware of their technical issues. I am curious, because I don't have access to sufficient information to make a determination, about whether the CRRC cars have had more and/or more severe entry-into-service problems than other equipment. It's unambiguously the case, in my opinion, that they haven't had anything like the problems that the Bredas or the Boeings had.

That said, I am of the opinion that the CRRC cars' rollout was mishandled from a PR/customer service standpoint. They absolutely hyped their arrival and EIS, I wouldn't be particularly surprised if some politics went into that decision, or at least if they chose the quick-hit PR win over perhaps a lower-profile EIS. I think the fact that they were at the very least implying that these cars were here, running, and perfect when they were essentially still in beta testing mode was a mistake that exacerbated the public displeasure at the nigh-inevitable problems that come with introducing new equipment. It's still quite early in their service lives to be condemning them as opposed to the marketing strategy around their rollout.

I honestly feel that the new trains were rushed into revenue service without being tested thoroughly enough. Had this been done, then maybe, just maybe the trains would've earned their keep & been a real hit with commuters. We'll probably never know at this point.

 

[Brattle Loop]

I honestly feel that the new trains were rushed into revenue service without being tested thoroughly enough. Had this been done, then maybe, just maybe the trains would've earned their keep & been a real hit with commuters. We'll probably never know at this point.

By and large I don't think the average commuter knows or cares what kind of car they ride on anywhere near as much as they care about the trains running reliably on time. Back in 2019 for whatever reason my then-regular commute happened to coincide with a run that regularly featured the new cars, so I actually got a number of opportunities to ride them. Passengers obviously noticed that they were new and shiny and different than the 01200 '70s tribute band, but at the end of the day they're just subway cars. People got on, rode to where they were going, and got off again.

I'm not suggesting that it's somehow problematic to be annoyed that they have had problems with keeping them in service. It is annoying. And between the degree to which both the administration and local media hyped up their EIS with apparent disregard for the fact that teething problems - sometimes significant ones - are normal and the teasing nature of their repeated comings and goings does mean there's a lot of attention on them, hence their currently-poor reputation.

That said, unlike the Boeing LRVs we don't know if these are lemons or just facing basic teething problems (albeit in a spotlight). To possibly over-extend the metaphor (mentioning Boeing brought this to mind) we don't yet know if these are more like the DC-10s which suffered semi-permanent reputational damage for several significant design flaws or more like the Boeing 787 which had a rough EIS that initially damaged its reputation but subsequently suffered no significant lasting public disfavor. The non-ArchBoston public will care a great deal if these don't ever work properly. I kind of doubt they'll care how bumpy the EIS was if they're still running well five or fifteen (or 50 like the Silverbirds) years down the line.

 

[Zash]

All along since their debut into revenue service, they were just a tease, getting riders all hyped up for the new vehicles, only to be screwed multiple times by constant breakdowns & being taken out of service. Sure, everyone had welcomed them with open arms over the extremely problematic decades-old trains, because of that, we're right back to Square One, still dealing with breakdowns & delays While there appears to be a stuggle getting the new trains to perform properly. Looks like we won't see them come back until next year somtime at this point.

I genuinely don't think the average T rider gets "hyped" over new trains. To most, the T is just something to get them from point A to point B. And as long as it does so within their expectations (in this case, the usual time it takes them between their destinations), they won't care what model train they're in.

 

[Arlington]

Maybe in general riders don’t notice, but the contrast between the rusty and dark old OL trains and the shiny new ones is probably the most powerful old/new contrast since the the PCCs replaced wooden cars

 

[Equilibria]

I genuinely don't think the average T rider gets "hyped" over new trains. To most, the T is just something to get them from point A to point B. And as long as it does so within their expectations (in this case, the usual time it takes them between their destinations), they won't care what model train they're in.

I remember the social media and traditional media reaction when these vehicles debuted and would beg to differ.

 

[Zash]

Maybe in general riders don’t notice, but the contrast between the rusty and dark old OL trains and the shiny new ones is probably the most powerful old/new contrast since the the PCCs replaced wooden cars

Entirely valid point. I think this contrast will be more noticeable to the general public once the cars are actually regularly on the tracks, though. A better way of putting what I was trying to say is that T riders will definitely enjoy these trains once they see them, but I just don't think many of them are eagerly anticipating their arrival or even know if they exist in the first place.