New Red and Orange Line Cars

NETransit roster updated for the first time in a month-and-a-half. . .

No new Orange Line cars accepted into service since March, so the active roster is still set at 106 (17 sets + 4 spare cars). 10 cars are in-testing however, meaning we're not far off from having 19 sets. Pace of deliveries is still agonizingly slow, 2 per month in March and May and 4 in April.

Red still at 14 cars (2 sets + 2 spare cars). 6 cars are in-testing, so we're not far off from having a third active set. Interestingly the in-testing ranks jumped all the way from pair 1916/1917 delivered March to 1930/1931 delivered April. Meaning there must be quite a sizeable backlog at Springfield near-ready to be shipped.
 
Supposedly, two old 1600 Red Line cars were removed from service. :eek:
 
Jahvon09 said:
Supposedly, two old 1600 Red Line cars were removed from service. :eek:
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8 01600's and 2 01700's have already been scrapped this Spring. 2 01500's, 4 01600's, and 2 01800's are currently stored awaiting disposition. With a third operating set of CRRC's on the way when the in-testing ranks enter service and a sizeable backlog of Red cars awaiting delivery from Springfield, they have basically stopped repairing the old fleets if it's anything more complicated than trivial fixes.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
01600's and 2 01700's have already been scrapped this Spring. 2 01500's, 4 01600's, and 2 01800's are currently stored awaiting disposition. With a third operating set of CRRC's on the way when the in-testing ranks enter service and a sizeable backlog of Red cars awaiting delivery from Springfield, they have basically stopped repairing the old fleets if it's anything more complicated than trivial fixes.
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Thanks, F-Line. Well, I think it's about time that some of those much older cars have started being removed from service. Next up, will be the old Green Line Trolleys, but I think that they'll be around for several more years.
 
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F-Line to Dudley said:
NETransit roster updated for the first time in a month-and-a-half. . .

No new Orange Line cars accepted into service since March, so the active roster is still set at 106 (17 sets + 4 spare cars). 10 cars are in-testing however, meaning we're not far off from having 19 sets. Pace of deliveries is still agonizingly slow, 2 per month in March and May and 4 in April.

Red still at 14 cars (2 sets + 2 spare cars). 6 cars are in-testing, so we're not far off from having a third active set. Interestingly the in-testing ranks jumped all the way from pair 1916/1917 delivered March to 1930/1931 delivered April. Meaning there must be quite a sizeable backlog at Springfield near-ready to be shipped.
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The T & CRRC were supposed to have reached a settlement deal where they'd pay extra to try to speed up the process & get the remaining new cars in sooner, since they were so slow with the process back when. I wonder what happened with that. :unsure:
 
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Stlin said:
And with that, there are no more Hawker Siddley cars on property. Can't wait until we get the same news for the Red Line.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1813922141542216086
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I guess Seashore Trolley Museum isn't taking any Orange 01200 Hawkers since they've got a pair of the almost-identical Blue 0600 Hawkers.


NETransit roster was also updated in the last 24 hours for the first time in about 6 weeks. Only 2 more cars have been accepted into service, so the roster is stuck at 108 (18 sets). 12 cars are lagging in testing, some of them for over 5 months now. Only 2 Orange cars delivered in June, none so far in July. Red isn't much better. Still 14 active cars (2 sets), no new acceptances in a couple of months. 8 cars in testing, no deliveries since April.

This situation still isn't improving, however many "resets" into it we are with CRRC. :(
 
How much longer into we get stuck in a sunk cost fallacy, especially with the red line.
 
bakgwailo said:
How much longer into we get stuck in a sunk cost fallacy, especially with the red line.
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There's already been discussions about this. But to repeat again, the other options implies losing another 10 years. This is pure speculation, but if the Orange Line rolling stock is any indication, the Red Line may not make it to delivery. If the choices is the Red Line shutting down for lack of rolling stock for possibly multiple years, then is it still a fallacy?

To be fair, we don't know how long the rolling stock can truly hold on. And it is important to consider the risks that CRRC trains becoming completely orphaned from manufacturer support post-delivery. But it's seem reasonable to consider the MBTA choices and assess the options sucks so much this is sadly still the best card they can play out.

I could be wrong though. Maybe the rolling stock can survive 10 years for another company to deliver. Or even living through a multi-year red line shutdown is actually better the option because CRRC trains will never come.

I don't know. But we know the newest contract with CRRC does now have clauses for the MBTA to first right of refusal which mean the power buy out the factory which could allow the MBTA to shorten the ~10 year process with another company to execute the completion the manufacturing (assuming anyone exist is willing to take over the remaining work without demanding to restart from scratch)
 
The contract reset was all of 3 months ago. For a major industrial procurement like this, that's basically no time at all - most things take time to implement. The reset gives CRRC until the end of 2027 to deliver the remaining 262 cars out of 404 total. To do that over the 41 months they have left, they need to deliver an average of 6.4 cars a month - assuming there won't be any deliveries in July.

I think the delay in deliveries probably has to do with acceptances - while cars lagging in testing isn't a good sign, they did lose 2 weeks with the closures around Wellington.

Edit to fix math.
 
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ant8904 said:
There's already been discussions about this. But to repeat again, the other options implies losing another 10 years. This is pure speculation, but if the Orange Line rolling stock is any indication, the Red Line may not make it to delivery. If the choices is the Red Line shutting down for lack of rolling stock for possibly multiple years, then is it still a fallacy?

To be fair, we don't know how long the rolling stock can truly hold on. And it is important to consider the risks that CRRC trains becoming completely orphaned from manufacturer support post-delivery. But it's seem reasonable to consider the MBTA choices and assess the options sucks so much this is sadly still the best card they can play out.

I could be wrong though. Maybe the rolling stock can survive 10 years for another company to deliver. Or even living through a multi-year red line shutdown is actually better the option because CRRC trains will never come.
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The Red Line trains at least got their mid life overhauls, and the 1800s are just newer, so they're probably in a better material state than the OLs cars were in 2022 when they were withdrawn.

As for post-delivery support, just about every bit that would need support was built by someone-not-CRRC. The propulsion system was built by Mitsubishi Electric in PA, signals and controls by Alstom, the brake system by Wabtec, etc, etc. The shell may be built in China, but it's mechanical guts aren't particularly Chinese in anyway. CRRC may have been the integrator, but I'd bet that any of the component folks could provide parts as needed.

1000035048.jpg
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
I guess Seashore Trolley Museum isn't taking any Orange 01200 Hawkers since they've got a pair of the almost-identical Blue 0600 Hawkers.


NETransit roster was also updated in the last 24 hours for the first time in about 6 weeks. Only 2 more cars have been accepted into service, so the roster is stuck at 108 (18 sets). 12 cars are lagging in testing, some of them for over 5 months now. Only 2 Orange cars delivered in June, none so far in July. Red isn't much better. Still 14 active cars (2 sets), no new acceptances in a couple of months. 8 cars in testing, no deliveries since April.

This situation still isn't improving, however many "resets" into it we are with CRRC. :(
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I want to make sure I have this right, so please correct my numbers if they are off.

Of the 152 Orange Line cars:
  • 108 are active (18 trains)
  • 2 are damaged
  • 12 are in testing
  • 30 have yet to enter testing
Of the 252 Red Line cars:
  • 14 are active (2 trains)
  • 6 are in testing (or is this 8? I count 6 but would like to be corrected: 1914/1915, 1916/1917, 1930/1931)
  • 232 have yet to enter testing
I’m trying to keep up to date with these numbers. Thanks for any help tracking this!
 
bigeman312 said:
I want to make sure I have this right, so please correct my numbers if they are off.

Of the 152 Orange Line cars:
  • 108 are active (18 trains)
  • 2 are damaged
  • 12 are in testing
  • 30 have yet to enter testing
Of the 252 Red Line cars:
  • 14 are active (2 trains)
  • 6 are in testing (or is this 8? I count 6 but would like to be corrected: 1914/1915, 1916/1917, 1930/1931)
  • 232 have yet to enter testing
I’m trying to keep up to date with these numbers. Thanks for any help tracking this!
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Correct on all points.

The media had previously reported that all Orange shells were in Springfield for assembly. But they've only been coming in at a pace of 2 per month. And if Red 1930/1931 have been delivered, that means 10 cars (1918-1929) have been fully assembled at Springfield because the numbers are applied sequentially upon assembly...but have not been delivered for some reason in over 3 months.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
I guess Seashore Trolley Museum isn't taking any Orange 01200 Hawkers since they've got a pair of the almost-identical Blue 0600 Hawkers.


NETransit roster was also updated in the last 24 hours for the first time in about 6 weeks. Only 2 more cars have been accepted into service, so the roster is stuck at 108 (18 sets). 12 cars are lagging in testing, some of them for over 5 months now. Only 2 Orange cars delivered in June, none so far in July. Red isn't much better. Still 14 active cars (2 sets), no new acceptances in a couple of months. 8 cars in testing, no deliveries since April.

This situation still isn't improving, however many "resets" into it we are with CRRC. :(
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I thought I saw something the other day in for the Facebook group in South End where I used to live with a bunch of people following the RL cars along Tremont Street as they were being delivered. Maybe no new acceptances, but, it seems like at least 4 cars were delivered earlier this month or late in June..
 
as02143 said:
I thought I saw something the other day in for the Facebook group in South End where I used to live with a bunch of people following the RL cars along Tremont Street as they were being delivered. Maybe no new acceptances, but, it seems like at least 4 cars were delivered earlier this month or late in June..
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There was a recent Reddit post about it as well

redline.png
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
I guess Seashore Trolley Museum isn't taking any Orange 01200 Hawkers since they've got a pair of the almost-identical Blue 0600 Hawkers.


NETransit roster was also updated in the last 24 hours for the first time in about 6 weeks. Only 2 more cars have been accepted into service, so the roster is stuck at 108 (18 sets). 12 cars are lagging in testing, some of them for over 5 months now. Only 2 Orange cars delivered in June, none so far in July. Red isn't much better. Still 14 active cars (2 sets), no new acceptances in a couple of months. 8 cars in testing, no deliveries since April.

This situation still isn't improving, however many "resets" into it we are with CRRC. :(
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A coupleof old ones have been carted off. Don't know when any more will go, but as new ones come on line after being tested, we'll see more of the old ones go.They are so old that they were here since Richard Nixon was in office as President of the United States. :eek:
 
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