New Red and Orange Line Cars

Jahvon09 said:
A coupleof old ones have been carted off. Don't know when any more will go, but as new ones come on line after being tested, we'll see more of the old ones go.They are so old that they were here since Richard Nixon was in office as President of the United States. :eek:
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No, they're all gone - those were the last two old Orange Line cars.
 
Stlin said:
No, they're all gone - those were the last two old Orange Line cars.
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No. Corection. True, but some of the old Red Line cars have now started being towed off the property. Two of them. As more new Red cars are aquired, just like the Orange line, the old Red Line ones will start to go, starting with the ones that are the most least reliable. :)
 
Not directly related to MBTA, more of a contrast to the procurement process at MBTA and the disastrous CRRC experience, BART is getting TWENTY NEW CARS PER MONTH in their fleet replacement project with Alstom. I don't have the most recent stats for the MBTA Orange/Red orders, but I'm certain it's way, way lower than that.

This 20 car per month pace actually reflects an acceleration from 11 cars per month at the beginning of the contract and has helped the project come in $394 million under budget. Shame on us.

Final car of the original Fleet of the Future contract now ready for service | Bay Area Rapid Transit

www.bart.gov www.bart.gov
 
Worth noting though that BARTs order is genuinely huge. It's currently at 775 delivered with 305 to go - that's a lot of room for improvements and options exercises. That's proper rate production right there. Whereas in Boston, we paid very little for the CRRC contract given the condition imposed of building in MA. That condition via Patrick really screwed the entire procurement for minimal long term gain in Springfield.

In 2014 we paid CNR (now CRRC) $556m for the initial tranche of 284 vehicles. (152 Orange + 132 Red). The T later executed an option in 2016 for an additional 120 Red line cars for $277m - on a per car basis, that's actually in line with BARTs cost - but bombardier (now alstom) didn't have to build a new factory for BART. That said, that should have ultimately shook out to about the same costs for everyone, regardless of whose name is on the door, but even with the injection of an additional $148M (approximately $111M in 2014 dollars) we're still below the next lowest bid from Hyundai, and still below the Bombardier bid even with the options exercised. At the time, had we awarded that initial 284 car contract to Bombardier, who was definitively the high bidder, it would have cost the MBTA $1080M just for the base order.
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In other new fleet news, the numbers on property are apparently 124 OL and 22 RL; an additional pair should be delivered by the end of the month and a third RL set is set to start running on 8/1. As long as CRRC can maintain a cadence of 6 cars a month or so they should meet their reset target.

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Oh no!! Not them again!! Look how ridiculously slow they took getting the new rail cars to us!! And we haven't gotten them all yet!!!! Is the T going to trust them again for more new vehicles?!!! Some folks just don't learn!!!! :eek:
 
Justbuildit said:
Not directly related to MBTA, more of a contrast to the procurement process at MBTA and the disastrous CRRC experience, BART is getting TWENTY NEW CARS PER MONTH in their fleet replacement project with Alstom. I don't have the most recent stats for the MBTA Orange/Red orders, but I'm certain it's way, way lower than that.

This 20 car per month pace actually reflects an acceleration from 11 cars per month at the beginning of the contract and has helped the project come in $394 million under budget. Shame on us.

Final car of the original Fleet of the Future contract now ready for service | Bay Area Rapid Transit

www.bart.gov www.bart.gov
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It's working out for them in some ways, not so much in others... https://sfist.com/2024/02/02/barts-...never-it-rains-may-require-expensive-repairs/

The smoothest procurement/rollout I've ever seen was the Green Line Type 9 here in Boston. It gives me hope for the Type 10s from CAF. Almost all new train procurements suck somehow.
 
How much qualification is necessary for a new car set? How much is done at the factory?
 
Jahvon09 said:
Oh no!! Not them again!! Look how ridiculously slow they took getting the new rail cars to us!! And we haven't gotten them all yet!!!! Is the T going to trust them again for more new vehicles?!!! Some folks just don't learn!!!! :eek:
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We already talked about this. I'm just gonna requote what I said below.

There's already been discussions about this. But to repeat again, the other options implies losing another 10 years. This is pure speculation, but if the Orange Line rolling stock is any indication, the Red Line may not make it to delivery. If the choices is the Red Line shutting down for lack of rolling stock for possibly multiple years, then is it still a fallacy?

To be fair, we don't know how long the rolling stock can truly hold on. And it is important to consider the risks that CRRC trains becoming completely orphaned from manufacturer support post-delivery. But it's seem reasonable to consider the MBTA choices and assess the options sucks so much this is sadly still the best card they can play out.

I could be wrong though. Maybe the rolling stock can survive 10 years for another company to deliver. Or even living through a multi-year red line shutdown is actually better the option because CRRC trains will never come.

I don't know. But we know the newest contract with CRRC does now have clauses for the MBTA to first right of refusal which mean the power buy out the factory which could allow the MBTA to shorten the ~10 year process with another company to execute the completion the manufacturing (assuming anyone exist is willing to take over the remaining work without demanding to restart from scratch)
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Koopzilla24 said:
You might have to wait a little longer than that. The 1500s have been on the rails for 55 years now and have another four to go
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That is way too damn long to keep equipment running & in service!! No wonder the old Hawkers on the Orange Line kept failing & catching fire & the old Red Line cars' axles break!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
I rode on 1512 this morning, so at least 2 more cars have now entered service since the NETransit roster was updated a few weeks ago. It's good to see some movement on acceptances.

And…one of the doors was already broken 🫠. The more things change, the more they stay the same…

Also a curiosity: This was the first CRRC car I've seen to have a proper metal builder's plate (unfortunately, I didn't get a picture). Some of the early cars have a decal with the CRRC logo, but they stopped including those relatively early on.
 
NETransit updated. . .

Orange in-service ranks jumped from 108 to 114 (19 sets), so the in-testing ranks got flushed out after months of inexplicable delay. We're only 1 more set away from numbers parity with the old Hawker-Siddeley roster, and those 6 cars are in-testing. No new deliveries in July; the delivery pace is still badly lagging the recovery target.

Red is showing 16 cars in-service now, 2 shy of that third set the T swore on social media would be operating by Aug. 1. I don't know if NETransit is lagging by a few days, or if the T blew its internal deadline for the third set.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
NETransit updated. . .

Orange in-service ranks jumped from 108 to 114 (19 sets), so the in-testing ranks got flushed out after months of inexplicable delay. We're only 1 more set away from numbers parity with the old Hawker-Siddeley roster, and those 6 cars are in-testing. No new deliveries in July; the delivery pace is still badly lagging the recovery target.

Red is showing 16 cars in-service now, 2 shy of that third set the T swore on social media would be operating by Aug. 1. I don't know if NETransit is lagging by a few days, or if the T blew its internal deadline for the third set.
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It's seeming like Orange should be able to return to pre-COVID frequencies and service levels for the winter 2024-2025 rating, currently slated for December 15th, 2024.

If they can finish testing the last 6 cars by August 24th, 2024; then it would be possible to run the fall 2024 rating with the full 17 trainsets for rush hour service, with 3 spare trainsets. However, Orange Line slow zones won't be fixed until Thanksgiving, hence the winter 2024-25 timeline for pre-COVID service levels still holds for Orange.

For the Red Line, zombie reddit reported that one of the new CRRC trainsets was involved in a medical emergency at South Station last week, and so was removed from revenue service entirely, for investigation.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
NETransit updated. . .

Orange in-service ranks jumped from 108 to 114 (19 sets), so the in-testing ranks got flushed out after months of inexplicable delay. We're only 1 more set away from numbers parity with the old Hawker-Siddeley roster, and those 6 cars are in-testing. No new deliveries in July; the delivery pace is still badly lagging the recovery target.

Red is showing 16 cars in-service now, 2 shy of that third set the T swore on social media would be operating by Aug. 1. I don't know if NETransit is lagging by a few days, or if the T blew its internal deadline for the third set.
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Is it known what NETransit's data sources are? Per the MBTA 's July 25th presentation, the OL is 124 on property and RL is 22, so my inclination is that NE transit is lagging somewhat.
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So glad to see that all of the old Hawkers have finally left the premises!!!! The T had once considered bringing some of them back into service because CRRC was taking too long getting the new cars ready.
 
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