New Red and Orange Line Cars

[Roxxma]

Let's say a door motor fails and needs to be replaced on a car. With married-pairs, the 2-car pair is cut from a train, sent to the shop, while the other four cars have another pair coupled on and go back into service. With a six-car unitized set, all six cars sit out of service until that door motor is replaced.
(I use door motor as just one example of a component that can require shop time because of in service failures)

Except with a fully articulated train, passengers have many more options to exit the train making it less urgent to remove it from service in the event of a door failure. Currently, passengers have three doors to exit from (or six at Sullivan and Wellington), an articulated train gives passengers the choice of 18 doors (or 36 at Sullivan and Wellington).

 

[statler]

Except with a fully articulated train, passengers have many more options to exit the train making it less urgent to remove it from service in the event of a door failure. Currently, passengers have three doors to exit from (or six at Sullivan and Wellington), an articulated train gives passengers the choice of 18 doors (or 36 at Sullivan and Wellington).

But as he said, door issues are only one reason to take a train out of service. As the trains age, there will be more and more points of failure and more and more sets out of service.

 

[Equilibria]

The T should considered putting electronic displays inside the trains for advertisement. They may be able to pull more revenue this way. These display could also show weather, news, and any service delays, similar to the ones in place at North Station.

Honestly, that's probably a given, since the newer vehicles already have an LED board up there, and some T buses have LED screens in them. I'd like to see the T go with the LED map board that BART's putting in also.

Put the NYC things above the doors, so that out-of-towners aren't so dependent on the map/announcement combo.

F-Line (where is he?) hated articulated trains. Can't remember why, though it likely involved them being unproven in the US.

 

[datadyne007]

But as he said, door issues are only one reason to take a train out of service. As the trains age, there will be more and more points of failure and more and more sets out of service.

Routine maintenance is the key.

Once again, the Germans say it best on page 32|33 (PDF page 18): https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=YMVAJ1yYpDkkUynWtwi37g&bvm=bv.64367178,d.cWc

To take just one example, a carriage door is opened and closed around 500 times a day. So at regular intervals, all the vehicles are given major check-ups down to the smallest detail.

*Routine maintenance does cost money up-front though and sadly the US doesn't fund/care about infrastructure as much as the Germans do.

 

[Jahvon09]

So is there an RFP out there somewhere? Just curious...




I agree completely, perhaps when a builder is selected they'll seek more community input. At least I hope so.

I've had a couple thoughts, and figure I'll throw them out there for discussion
I've seen reports that the NYC subway was investigating articulated subway cars, meaning you could walk from end to end through articulated sections similar to the green line, but on HRT. I don't think fully articulated trains are practical, but maybe articulated married couples would be beneficial. You could still mix & match, and build trains or different lengths. The articulated nature means that passengers could spread out and fill in cars more.

All cars should have at least 4 doors on each side. This may be standard by now, I don't know. But more doors = faster passenger loading = shorter times in each station. It also means less seats, which means more standing room, and higher capacity.

New cars need to have polls in the center of the door areas, like NYC so people that are stuck in that no-mans land have something to hold onto.

Signage inside the car is is a big issue. I'm a big fan of these signs on the NYC subway:

But i think we could also improve/ find the next generation sign.

Like I said, I really hope to see some kind of forum for the public to express their wishes in the new cars.

The new subway Trains in Washington will not only inform commuters on the subway stops, but also, they will inform passengers on places of interest nearby at the stops, such as churches, restaurants, hotels, etc.

 

[George_Apley]

The new subway Trains in Washington will not only inform commuters on the subway stops, but also, they will inform passengers on places of interest nearby at the stops, such as churches, restaurants, hotels, etc.

Eh, that's too much nannying for me. Make tourists do their research...

 

[Jahvon09]

I think that it'll be part of the newer more advanced GPS system that the new trains will use. Sort of like the GPS system that is used for android smart phones.

 

[KentXie]

I think that it'll be part of the newer more advanced GPS system that the new trains will use. Sort of like the GPS system that is used for android smart phones.

Or google glasses.

 

[Jahvon09]

I just dying to see what the new proposals and the final design of the cars will look like!

Too bad though, that they're not getting the ones shaped like the new ones in Washington, DC!! I like those ones!!

 

[George_Apley]

Man, I know the DC metro does okay, but I've never heard such effusive praise before!

 

[Jahvon09]

I've rode several city subways, including Boston, Philly, New York City and Chicago, but I was never so mesmerized & taken than I was when I rode the WMATA Metro System for the first time in late 2010!

I began riding, surveying and reading up on it and I then became a subway buff!

 

[davem]

With no prospects for fixing the woeful underfunding of our transit authority, I am hesitant to support any "extras" on the new trainsets.
Cool! New! Shiny! quickly becomes Broken! Dirty! Outdated! on even well funded systems, on ours it would happen before you can blink. I have no faith our system will ever be maintained as well as even the MTA, say nothing of das u-bahn. Look at all the Cool! New! Shiny! that has been run to hell is less than a decade at North Station and Kenmore. And those are physical stations they can't bother to even take a rag or tube of caulk to.

The LED onboard maps the MTA has are great since most if not all of their lines branch. But why do we need them? Only the Red Line has branches, and it only has a single one. Not only is this technology that needs to be continously maintained, but it will eventually be dated. Worse yet, if it breaks and can't be pulled out of service you don't have a map on board at all. If it's wrong (as the ASA frequently is), it is more confusing than a printed map. I would be in support of a map with indicator bulbs like the MTAs R188s use on the 7 Train. It is less complex, and even if it breaks there is still a map.

Articulated trains are a similar issue. I could get on board with them as they do have many benefits, but an articulated train requires far more maintenance than a standard train, even if only articulated between each pair. The Germans and Japanese have meticulous maintenance procedures that eliminate the issues associated with them. Our maintenance is printing stickers to put over rust so riders cant see how bad it is.

Keep it simple. The PCCs down at Mattapan haven't been running for umpteen years just because they are pretty, they are battle tested and proven. I will happily live without all the doodads and trinkets that are cropping up on better funded systems for a bulletproof train that can do something as incredible as run on a cold morning, something which our existing fleet is incapable of doing.

Now, once our system is at a state of good repair, and some of the brainless extensions are funded, then I will be in full support of new technology. But I don't see that happening until the NEXT car order. Until then, give me something that runs, and will keep running even after being run into the ground, hit with a baseball bat and duct taped together. The new Blue Line trans seem to be a very good example of this. Uncomfortable vandal resistant seats, no excess features not explicitly required by the ADA, battle tested technology from a proven manufacturer. That is what the T needs.

 

[Jahvon09]

Yeah, the newest trains in the system that I know of, is on the Blue Line.

Those cars are only a few years old, yet already and before they were even a year old, things started to go wrong, such as the doors, communications system (GPS), HVAC and the seats don't feel wide enough.

But like you said, cool, new & shiny quickly becomes broken, and of course, they are going to look for the lowest bid to spend the least amount of money.

We probably WON'T see much of anything as far as user-friendly goes, advanced technology or anything different from what is offered on the Blue Line cars.

 

[KentXie]

Man, I know the DC metro does okay, but I've never heard such effusive praise before!

Are you kidding me? It's clean, it's timely, it's fast and smooth, they even carpet the floor. I love the DC metro.

 

[Jahvon09]

Are you kidding me? It's clean, it's timely, it's fast and smooth, they even carpet the floor. I love the DC metro.

Yeah, you're right, it is all that!! I love it also!

But they've begun removing the carpeting in the older cars and going with the resilient floor covering, mainly because the carpeting has over the years become dirty and hard to clean & keep clean.

I especially like the long line of blinking red lights on the edge of the platforms that lets you know when a train is approaching! Also, they have one other thing that I never saw in other cities' subway stations, and saw it there for the very first time in my life. Air conditioned stations!! Probably because most of their subway stations are very deep underground.

That to me, was so astonishing! And yes, their stations are really clean and they have a no-litter ruling. I'm going back there next month for a week! I love to stay in the Dupont Circle area! Very nice, and stuff is close by!

 

[ChelseaDweller]

To make this post more than 50% on topic: I think it is preferable not to have carpet in any of the car. Can you imagine it with the amount of snow we get up here. It's bad enough when there is upholstery on the seats themselves. I do like the interior layout of the DC trains tho, breaks up the clogging of people that happens on the Orange & Red line around the doors.

Interesting to read positive reviews overall of the DC system, every morning I have just as many friends complaining about the Metro as the T on my Twitter feed. Might be a visitor vs. commuter thing tho. And those stations may be clean but they're also dangerously dark, I wouldn't want to be visually impaired either high/low partial using the system.

(Edit: spelling)

 

[Jahvon09]

The most prominent and problematic thing with the DC systems is that the escalators and elevators have been a constant on-going drag.

I was once in the papers there after doing an on-the-spot interview on one of the subway station platforms with a reporter!

She wanted to know how I felt about the problem and I ;let her know, even as pissed off as I was trying to get a big heavy suitcase down an escalator that was not on or working.

But the problem IS now being taken care of after many commuters have flooded the transit agency with their anger & frustration on the problems with access to and from the stations. Some of the escalators are very long, especially at Wheaton & Dupont Circle Stations.

As for the carpeting, I think DC got lots of complaints, saying that they needed to be changed. That is probably when the transit agency had first thought about replacing the carpeting with normal flooring.

 

[datadyne007]

Carpeting should never be on public transit vehicles primarily for the sole reason that if someone gets sick (which happens very often in Boston with the large college crowds), it is difficult and costly to clean. It's just plain silly.

 

[DigitalSciGuy]

I think the T should be looking at married triplets instead of pairs, but entire trainsets are a bad idea for precisely the reasons you stated.

I agree with you 100%. I'm very disappointed to see the specs ask for married pairs for operational flexibility. I would imagine one of the reasons they want such pairs over triplets is possibly because of the length of yard sidings and switches; I don't know the layouts of the yards well enough to speak as to whether this is an actual concern and I got bored reading the specs so I started skipping around looking for key words, so I don't know for sure. Having 1 out of every 3 cars not have control equipment would mean some semblance of added saving that could permit added expense elsewhere. I would hope the eligible bidders offer a triplet option, though it's doubtful they'd even develop a proposal with an option that isn't explicitly within the design specs.

In addition, I'm not sure if its done in practice, but I imagine if one part of the set failed it could be cut out, unloaded, and the other half of the set used to shove it to the nearest yard.

Couplets have failed in revenue service. I've seen the train continue to be operated with those cars disabled from trainlined controls; presumably the malfunction didn't prevent the set from continuing to roll merrily along with the rest of the train at least until the set arrived back at Wellington (this was an Orange Line train going to Forest Hills).

The cars are to be configured as A-car/B-car married pairs. The A-car will have a control cab at one end, while the B-cars will not have any control cab. A six-car train will be made up of A-B-A-B-B-A. The existing cars each have a control-cab on one end, so an existing six-car train has 6 cabs vs. only 3 on a train of the future fleet. That frees up more space for passenger use, but maintains the maintenance flexibility to having married-pairs.

To add to this, the specs also dictate the non-cab cars have a hostler panel on the 'outside' end in the driving position, comme ça:

I just dying to see what the new proposals and the final design of the cars will look like!

Too bad though, that they're not getting the ones shaped like the new ones in Washington, DC!! I like those ones!!

As a quick aside:
Yes, Kawasaki's new trains for WMATA look really nice. They basically look like Kawasaki took their R143/R160 design and ported it over to DC with a few aesthetic changes.

However, I think they pale in comparison to the BMW-designed, Bombardier-built BART's FLEET of the FUUUUTARRRRR:

Their sneak peek video is reminiscent of a car ad (with good reason). BART's marketing team is led by a really awesome communications director... MBTA could borrow a page or two from their marketing, operations, and vehicle design and procurement book...

[youtube]DrNyHvyb59A[/youtube]

With no prospects for fixing the woeful underfunding of our transit authority, I am hesitant to support any "extras" on the new trainsets.
Cool! New! Shiny! quickly becomes Broken! Dirty! Outdated! on even well funded systems, on ours it would happen before you can blink. I have no faith our system will ever be maintained as well as even the MTA, say nothing of das u-bahn. Look at all the Cool! New! Shiny! that has been run to hell is less than a decade at North Station and Kenmore. And those are physical stations they can't bother to even take a rag or tube of caulk to.

The LED onboard maps the MTA has are great since most if not all of their lines branch. But why do we need them? Only the Red Line has branches, and it only has a single one. Not only is this technology that needs to be continously maintained, but it will eventually be dated. Worse yet, if it breaks and can't be pulled out of service you don't have a map on board at all. If it's wrong (as the ASA frequently is), it is more confusing than a printed map. I would be in support of a map with indicator bulbs like the MTAs R188s use on the 7 Train. It is less complex, and even if it breaks there is still a map.

Articulated trains are a similar issue. I could get on board with them as they do have many benefits, but an articulated train requires far more maintenance than a standard train, even if only articulated between each pair. The Germans and Japanese have meticulous maintenance procedures that eliminate the issues associated with them. Our maintenance is printing stickers to put over rust so riders cant see how bad it is.

Keep it simple. The PCCs down at Mattapan haven't been running for umpteen years just because they are pretty, they are battle tested and proven. I will happily live without all the doodads and trinkets that are cropping up on better funded systems for a bulletproof train that can do something as incredible as run on a cold morning, something which our existing fleet is incapable of doing.

Now, once our system is at a state of good repair, and some of the brainless extensions are funded, then I will be in full support of new technology. But I don't see that happening until the NEXT car order. Until then, give me something that runs, and will keep running even after being run into the ground, hit with a baseball bat and duct taped together. The new Blue Line trans seem to be a very good example of this. Uncomfortable vandal resistant seats, no excess features not explicitly required by the ADA, battle tested technology from a proven manufacturer. That is what the T needs.

I agree that the LED dot maps on the R188s and older R142s are much more practical and functional for the T, since lines don't often branch, and where they do on the Red Line, or even Green Line if this were made a modular component and ported to other vehicles, poses lower scaling costs than full LED sign boards. So not only is the cost to implement lower (because now you also need a less beefy controller board for an LED dot map), the ongoing maintenance cost is lower, too.

I will argue in favour of LCD screens, however. Not only can they be used for advertisements, they can also be used to advise passengers about upcoming service diversions, active delay alerts, etc. However.... this also means the infrastructure needed for live streamed content would need to be built up too. Thales has a pretty sexy video about what this can do, but this is an infrastructure investment that is probably well beyond this procurement.

[youtube]LwccRxWf7CE[/youtube]

I am loathe to agree that more vigorous maintenance just won't be coming to the T to validate the purchase of articulated trains. It absolutely should happen but it absolutely won't happen, chiefly because of the politics around transport funding above the T that we're all familiar with.

As former MTA and current Hong Kong MTR CEO Jay Walder once mentioned in a Harvard Business School lecture, you can't rely on politicians to fund transit. It is absolutely core to the viability of so many cities, yet politicians will dick around with the money, as they did for this procurement. Until we have leadership at the T or at MassDOT who is willing to find better ways of ensuring core operations budgets are secure from politicking (capital budgets will almost always come from the state, as they do even in Hong Kong), we need to be buying trains that we can try to maintain, but can still serve the Commonwealth if things go to shit and we have to run them into the ground.

Like people who live in Florida, you know hurricanes are statistically likely. You prepare for the worst and you hope for the best; doing otherwise is stupid and naïve.

 

[Jahvon09]

DC's new cars have some pretty impressive things under the hood. They probably still won't be in service when I go there next month for the week of Memorial Day. Shame!

Kawasaki was one of the co's that the MBTA had on the roster to possibly build the new rail cars for them, but they did not win the contract to do it.