New Red and Orange Line Cars

Please god Siemens. We already have them running on the blue line with great success. Having the majority of the heavy rail fleet all be essentially the same car would be a great boon for maintenance. However, almost any of those players would be preferable to CNR.
 
"Buy Massachusetts" results in yet another boondoggle overpayment for transit vehicles. We get ripped off by idiots trying to "create jobs" at $2 million per job...

http://systemicfailure.wordpress.com/2014/05/15/cost-of-a-new-mbta-subway-car/

The MBTA has budgeted $1.3-1.5 billion to purchase 226 railcars for the Red and Orange lines. If you do the math, that is over $5.75 million apiece!

Why so much? Because Gov. Patrick insists they be assembled in Massachusetts — even though the State has no passenger railcar industry:

Gov. Deval Patrick expressed his preference Thursday that whichever company gets the $1.5 billion contract to build new Red Line and Orange Line cars for the MBTA that the cars be assembled in Western Massachusetts.

The factory could have 150 to 300 employees.

“As governor, I have to love the whole state,” said Patrick during a meeting with the editorial board of MassLive.com and The Republican editorial board . But Patrick said he would like to see the cars assembled in Western Massachusetts. He added though, that he is “agnostic” about which city in the region would get the project.

“That’s why it is important that the decision is made while I’m still in office,” said Patrick, whose term ends at the end of the year.

The Governor seems to have learned nothing from the recent Hyundai-Rotem debacle. As you may recall, the MBTA had Hyundai set up a special factory to manufacture some commuter railcars, Those railcars turned out to be very expensive and unreliable. And now they are going to use the same approach for the subway car order.

And even looking at this as a jobs program (instead of transit project), the cost-benefit is horrible. Massachusetts will pay at least $3 million extra per railcar, which works out to $2 million per employee.
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Matthew said:
"Buy Massachusetts" results in yet another boondoggle overpayment for transit vehicles. We get ripped off by idiots trying to "create jobs" at $2 million per job...

http://systemicfailure.wordpress.com/2014/05/15/cost-of-a-new-mbta-subway-car/
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Seriously. And since the cost of the "jobs" is basically fixed (by whatever springfield wages and buildings go for), this invites the winning bidder to cut corners on design and components.

I'd much rather get the right railcar from a real manufacturer and create jobs in Springfield by making it an employee base and service point for New Haven-Springfield-Northampton commuter rail. Those are good, permanent, union jobs too--but we actually'd get our money's worth
 
Scalziand said:
http://www.masslive.com/business-ne...cnr_changchun_railway_vehicles_other_bid.html

[

Besides Changchun, bidders include CAF or Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles of Spain, Kawasaki Rail Car. of Japan; Siemans of Germany; Alstom Transport of France; Bombardier of Canada, Hyundai Rotem of South Korea and CNR.
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These were actually all the companies they came to a pre-bid informational meeting back in December. It doesn't mean they have all submitted proposals.
 
Equilibria said:
The boondoggle with Hyundai/Rotem happened because the company no experience designing passenger rail cars for US standards, not because the factory in PA (I think it was) did shoddy work.
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Hundai/Rotem is assembling badly-made railcars in Philadelphia because their first US gig was the Silverliner V order for SEPTA which they won by promising to build a newbie "make local" facility in Philadelphia--Sound familiar?

Then, to keep that facility in business, they succeed in being the low bidder on MBTA bilevels (thei second US order) and were still making rookie errors--drilling fasteners through wiring bundles--as the MBTA's bilevels started production.

If you're saying "thank goodness we're not so stupid as to buy Rotems again", you're doubly wrong. By this time Rotem has clawed its way up the production-quality curve, but at Springfield *any* winning bidder is going to start you right back where Rotem was on the Silverliner V...terribly late, poorly made, it being an iron law that rookie facilities make rookie mistakes--its where "the learning curve" comes from, and new facilities start at the bottom.

And if you think that nobody would be so stupid as to place a 3rd order with Rotem, consider who is going to be so stupid as to place a second order with Springfield? The plant will close and all those workers will collect UI as soon as the order's done.

Rotem's Philly plant is exactly the sort of rookie-team-makes-crappy-cars-at-make-work-facility that you'll get in Springfield. Frankly we'd be better off buying philly-made Rotems for the Red Line because they're at least two car-orders up the learning curve.

Just as no European or Japanese company (with experience) could afford to build in Philly (they prefer to compete on quality and price)...and so you got Rotem, now that Rotem's in Philly, only a Chinese company would have component costs low enough and the motivation to "win" a bid that involved a new facility in Springfield. Changchun wins and delivers crappy cars late. You heard it here first.
 
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The only I know is that the Red & Orange Lines definitely need a refreshing change with new rail cars!

Like what was done with the Blue Line a few years ago.
 
I think of that fucking moron who stood up at the hearings and said that the reason for the commuter rail fiasco was because we didn't do ENOUGH "Buy America". According to him, if only we did MORE "Buy America" we would avoid shoddy work.

Yeah right. People are so fucking stupid in this country, it's almost unbearable, and the T management no less.
 
Lets say the mandate that they're built in Massachusetts was not on the table, where would they come from? I am just thinking of the logistics behind shipping 226 subway cars to Boston.
 
mass88 said:
Lets say the mandate that they're built in Massachusetts was not on the table, where would they come from? I am just thinking of the logistics behind shipping 226 subway cars to Boston.
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No matter what, they aren't being built here. They are being assembled. The only difference is shipping 200-something containers of parts, or 226 fully assembled cars. I would have to ask my aunt who does this for a living, but I don't think handling subway cars would be all that much more complex than other large commodities. I doubt they would go into the hold, but probably sit on deck.

Really, what is made here anymore? Some of the wiring, maybe some circuit boards? Probably not even that. If there was actually a competent manufacturer of rail cars in the US, then hell yeah, do the Buy America provision. But when its just a foreign company making work for a few dozen people to put together an IKEA bed, its absurd and a massive waste of resources.
 
Shipping subway cars--either as shells or finished vehicles is cheaply and easily done by ship, barge, rail flatcar, or tractor trailer (and, since they are not FRA compliant, never as a "train"). It is done *all* the time. Since loading and unloading are the hardest part, the distance of the trip ends up being irrelevant to cost and quality.


The shells for Rotem's Silverliner V and MBTA bilevels were assembled in Korea and shipped to the port of Philadelphia. (The shell is critical to all subsequent steps--it must be square and perfectly welded to ensure the proper fit of all components and to ensure no leaks or cracks--and so that job *must* be done by experienced teams, often at "headquarters")

So whatever (tiny) savings woul accrue for assembling in Springfield, you are going to lose in shipping the shell from where it is really made (and I would guess that's going to be China). Happy now, "Buy America" crowd?
 
winstonoboogie said:
Besides Changchun, bidders include CAF or Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles of Spain, Kawasaki Rail Car. of Japan; Siemans of Germany; Alstom Transport of France; Bombardier of Canada, Hyundai Rotem of South Korea and CNR.


These were actually all the companies they came to a pre-bid informational meeting back in December. It doesn't mean they have all submitted proposals.
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The MBTA tweeted that they received 6 proposals.
So of the 8 companies listed above (CSR, CNR, CAF, Kawasaki, Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier, and Rotem, as well as Nippon-Sharyo, which is not listed but did attend the pre-bid meeting), we know that the two bidders from China (CSR and CNR) as well as Rotem have publicly stated they were going to bid. So that is three of the six. Since CAF bid on and won the Green Line order, that probably means they would be interested in Red/Orange. That means of the remaining five (Kawasaki, Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier, and Nippon-Sharyo) probably only two from that group submitted a proposal. My guess would be that Bombardier and Kawasaki would each make a proposal, although the facilities that either of them would build in the state would probably be minimal. Siemens has not bid on a U.S. rapid transit car contract since the Blue Line order (they did not bid on the CTA, BART, or WMATA contracts), they have a plant in California that makes conventional steel LRVs (including shells) and is now working on Amtrak locomotives, but they don't do stainless steel work there. The Blue Line car shells came from their plant in Vienna. Although I think it is a long shot (but not impossible) that Siemens bid to build complete cars, they may have teamed up with one or more of the other builders to be a subcontractor to provide the propulsion systems.
As an example, Siemens has partnered with CSR before:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...y-traction-equipment-for-guangzhou-trams.html
 
The WMATA is getting their rail cars made by Kawasaki. One train set is presently being tested in the system. If Washington is pleased with it's performance, and any issues with the train can be solved, they will go ahead and place the order for the remaining cars.

The MBTA might even go with Bombardier, since their last known order from them were for the stainless steel rail cars on the Red Line, that line's last known order back then for new rail cars. The agency will probably spend a ton of dough keeping their present fleets of older Red & Orange Line cars maintained & or repaired, which could be astronomical!

I wish that the MBTA had the same system as the one in Washington, where, at the edges of the platform, there are lines of red lights that flicker to warn passengers of approaching trains, but there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that would happen here.
 
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Siemens is I believe the only manufacturer of the lot with experience designing for Boston's heavy rail lines. I'd be happy with them or Kawasaki for sure.
 
Yeah, they'll more than likely go with the lowest bidder to save some dough. Whomever the lowest bidder may be. But I think that they are most likely going with stainless steel
rail cars.
 
With Hyundai Rotem and CNR Changchun, Springfield now has two chances for MBTA work

By Jim Kinney | jkinney@repub.com
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on October 10, 2014 at 5:00 PM, updated October 10, 2014 at 7:11 PM

SPRINGFIELD — Hyundai Rotem's announcement Friday that it will build a factory at 180 Progress Ave. in Springfield if it is selected to build $1.5 billion worth of subway cars for the MBTA Red and Orange lines gives the city two horses in the race.

CNR Changchun Railway Vehicles announced earlier this year that if the MBTA picks its proposal for the Boston subway cars, Changchun would locate here on property it has agreed to purchase: the 40-acre site of the former Westinghouse factory on Page Boulevard in East Springfield.

Andrew Hyer, marketing/business development manager at Hyundai Rotem USA, said Friday that it plans a $30 million assembly plant that could hire 150 to 200 workers. If Hyundai is selected, construction would begin in late 2015 and production in 2016. Of the $30 million, $15 million would be spent with local contractors and $15 on equipment brought in.

Hyundai Rotem is from South Korea. Changchun is Chinese.

Hyer and his colleagues have spent months working with local officials.

"I'm very pleased that we have two world-class companies that are in competition for the MBTA bid and have found that Springfield is their top spot," Springfield Mayor Domenic J. Sarno said Friday."It brings a lot of good paying precision machining jobs, a lot of opportunity and a growing tax base."

There are a number of other bidders. But no others are interested in Springfield, said Allan W. Blair, president and CEO of the Economic Development Council of Western Massachusetts.

Blair expects the MBTA to make a decision very soon, probably in November.

"It certainly is good for Springfield to have two contenders interested in putting their facility here. But only one can win, " Blair said. "It speaks well to the city's location. It also speaks well to the ability of the company to source employees. They are going to need a lot of tradespeople."

Hyer said the workforce and the worker-training capabilities in Springfield attracted his company here. He's already been meeting with Springfield Technical Community College, which will host a news conference Thursday, Oct. 16.

The Hyundai site at 180 Progress Ave. is a 9.4-acre properety now occupied by a 122,000-square-foot warehouse offered for lease through R. J. Greeley Co. and once home to trucking company Sullivan Consolidation. Hyer said Hyundai has an agreement to buy the property.

The T needs at least 226 cars. Of those, 152 would be Orange Line cars, replacing the entire fleet of 120, and 74 would be Red Line cars, with an option to increase the fleet to 132. The 43-year-old Red Line cars and 31-year-old Orange Line cars are due for replacement.

The state went without federal money for the cars so it could require that final assembly be done in Massachusetts.

Hyundai Rotem already has an assembly plant in Philadelphia, built there because that city's SEPTA had a similar local-assembly requirement for Silver Line cars. Hyundai was delayed by 2½ years delivering cars for MBTA's passenger rail, the purple-colored trains.

"They are all delivered now," Hyer said. "Some are in service and some have been accepted for testing. there was a high hurdle, but we got over it."

If built, the $50 million Changchun factory would employ 150 to 300 workers and serve as Changchun's entry into the North American market for rail cars. The company has no North American operations now.
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MassLive.com
 
"If" they're selected?

Yeah....rrrrr....no.

The T is not going to be buying more Hyundai-Brokems. They are still rotating the Brokems they just bought out-of-service to Davisville for days at a time for warranty modifications so they can finally settle up that contract. They've been on the property for months...they mostly work...but there's still enough chintzy crap being stamped out that the manufacturer has a semi-permanent encampment of maintenance techs lingering in the district a year later.

There are limits to "low-bid takes all"...and late deadlines are one of the few tried-and-true ones that'll still get a vendor blackballed even in this convoluted low-bid/Buy-America bureaucratic sausage-making stateside transit agencies make an art form out of. It's perversely a worse sin to be contractually late than it is to simply build a P.O.S. product that doesn't work. The manufacturers who build their rolling garbage on-time will always get a chance to part ways with another sucker's money in the low-bid lottery! Government procurement regs FTW!


Look at Breda's dry spell in North America ever since they finished their two-handed gagging of the MBTA Type 8 and MUNI trolleys. They haven't scored a single stateside order since those wrapped. That's what Rotem is looking at if they don't recover the fumble in a big way on the other U.S. orders still ongoing. They won't even get a sniff.


CNR Changchun's got a lot of experience. Heavy rail, EMU/DMU, high-speed trains...doesn't look like they've done anything for light rail, though. Mostly domestic business inside China...not a lot of exports. Not surprising in the least that the Chinese are willing to pony up big for a Buy American contract...and Changchun's neither the first nor the last that'll be making that push. I know nothing about their products other than stating the obvious: they don't arrive on our doorstep bearing the skidmarks on their underoos that Rotem and Breda do.
 
God I swear if the MBTA selects Hyundai Rotem, every single person who helped make the decision must be required to pay, out of their own pockets, for any delayed cost or maintenance cost due to malfunctioning hardware. Seriously, the commuter rail project they undertook was a complete sham, being 2.5 years late and, if that wasn't bad enough, required fixing only a few months in due to shoddy workmanship. Why would they even think of making the same mistake twice.
 
If Rotem comes out ahead within whatever framework or points system guides the selection process, then they will get the job. It's as simple as that. Now, perhaps there is some room for discretion within the process, in which case perhaps an undesirable bidder could be denied the contract, but that will only get you so far before you start drawing serious complaints from whichever bidder(s) feel they were snubbed. I guess we'll all have our answer soon enough.
 
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