New Red and Orange Line Cars

[jass]

PCCs were also in the pre-accessibility era which made "one size fits all" cars much easier to produce, now transit systems consider all their riders which means much tighter tolerances which makes it pretty impossible to use a single design. Now we expect platforms and floors to line up perfectly and gap free. Also to make the most of a specific size of tunnel custom built cars are the only way to go, the current green line cars are much larger and come within an inch of the walls at times but are designed as such.

You're right that ADA has made it harder, but let's not pretend US transit systems do a great job at this. Remember how much money and time the MBTA spent to raise every green line platform by 3 inches, and we still don't have true level boarding? Or how the Silver Line platforms were built at standard curb height rather than 2 inches higher to allow for true level boarding?

And dont get me started on Amtrak ordering like 200 new high level trains to run in California and Michigan where all the platforms are low-level...(they get delivered next year).

Look, I fully agree you can't one-size fits all model for every transit agency. But thats not the same as saying every order should be 100% custom - especially on the regional rail side, where things ARE pretty damn standardized around the country.

It's it funny how all the competing private rail freight lines have managed to use standard rail cars?

 

[bakgwailo]

You're right that ADA has made it harder, but let's not pretend US transit systems do a great job at this. Remember how much money and time the MBTA spent to raise every green line platform by 3 inches, and we still don't have true level boarding? Or how the Silver Line platforms were built at standard curb height rather than 2 inches higher to allow for true level boarding?

And dont get me started on Amtrak ordering like 200 new high level trains to run in California and Michigan where all the platforms are low-level...(they get delivered next year).

Look, I fully agree you can't one-size fits all model for every transit agency. But thats not the same as saying every order should be 100% custom - especially on the regional rail side, where things ARE pretty damn standardized around the country.

It's it funny how all the competing private rail freight lines have managed to use standard rail cars?

I can agree that things like EMUs/DMUs should be rather off the shelf and reasonably standardized, which, I think with the new FRA regs, is now possibly (standards being Euro models). Subway and heavy rail, though? Nope. Also, at least here, I don't see that as possibly on our light rail either given our very custom (i.e. old) tunnels and curves - although, it does seem like the MBTA is making an effort to improve that in their plans for the Green Line.

 

[jass]

I can agree that things like EMUs/DMUs should be rather off the shelf and reasonably standardized, which, I think with the new FRA regs, is now possibly (standards being Euro models). Subway and heavy rail, though? Nope. Also, at least here, I don't see that as possibly on our light rail either given our very custom (i.e. old) tunnels and curves - although, it does seem like the MBTA is making an effort to improve that in their plans for the Green Line.

Part of what annoys me is with Type 8 they did their whole "Green Line is a unique snowflake and we must be 10000% custom which is why theyre trash" and now with Type 10 its actually like "oh, so we can go 90% off-shelf after all"

They were clearly lying before.

Of course, it's fantastic they're finally getting their act together, but the green line shouldnt have been stuck with 60 years of subpar vehicles because of the exceptionalism.

See also: Most US transit agencies (including MBTA) claiming they cant buy articulated subway cars because reeeaaaaasooons.

I also just learned that NJT is placing an order of articulated buses with 2 fucking doors, so needless to say, MBTA is far from the worse.

I'm not trying to be an asshole here. But the fact is, the "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" (unless youre Boylston amirite). What I am saying, is advocates bitching loudly is what has been creating change among the agencies.

So if you want MBTA to be better, join me in bitching, especially when elected officials are listening.

 

[Coyote137]

Have to agree. I wish the bitching weren't requisite, but it is. There are difficulties in working for a public agency, but let's not pretend there isn't some bullshit worked in to the difficulties.

 

[statler]

The T’s deputy general manager, Jeff Gonneville, on Monday told the agency’s governing board that nothing is wrong with the train, but testing of one component is taking longer than expected. This test is for a control system installed by the French company Alstom, which ensures trains are following the directions from the transit line’s signal system, which controls speed, spacing, and other aspects of service.

Maybe I'm being picky but I am curious as why it is taking longer than expected.

Did they miscalculate how long it would take, if so, what specifically did they miscalculate? Did they forget to take testing this component into consideration in their initial estimates? Was it a third party issue?

None of this matters per se, I want them to get this right, however long it takes. However I would also like them to be open about what went wrong.

 

[Equilibria]

Maybe I'm being picky but I am curious as why it is taking longer than expected.

Did they miscalculate how long it would take, if so, what specifically did they miscalculate? Did they forget to take testing this component into consideration in their initial estimates? Was it a third party issue?

None of this matters per se, I want them to get this right, however long it takes. However I would also like them to be open about what went wrong.

I watched Gonneville's talk, and it sounds like the issue was with Alstom. First time integrating this box into this kind of train.

 

[statler]

OK That's fair. Thanks!

 

[Jahvon09]

Supposedly, only the first 6-car train is affected. The other ones won't be. The T estimates the first one to come into revenue service sometime in March.

I read it online the other day.

 

[whittle]

Part of what annoys me is with Type 8 they did their whole "Green Line is a unique snowflake and we must be 10000% custom which is why theyre trash" and now with Type 10 its actually like "oh, so we can go 90% off-shelf after all"

They were clearly lying before.

The Type 10 project outline involves doing 5 years of infrastructure improvements as prerequisite before receiving the first new car.

 

[bakgwailo]

See also: Most US transit agencies (including MBTA) claiming they cant buy articulated subway cars because reeeaaaaasooons.

This. I spoke with some of the MBTA team who worked in the proposal process for the new red/orange trains (bonus of working for a company that does contracts for the MBTA I guess) and they gave some excuse about the radius of certain turns in both the red and orange line tracks which I can't remember exactly which but that seems like an absolute excuse to me. We can design articulated buses to take 90 degree turns, we can design articulated green line trains to take near 90 degree turns and nothing on the OL/RL comes close to that. Yes it would be an extra challenge and cost for the bidders but I've seen it done in other countries just fine.

Even if they just made the married pairs articulated it would be an improvement, if they wanted to keep the flexibility of swapping out married pairs in their 6 car sets.

The MBTA officially gave the reason why they aren't looking into articulated trainsets - they want operational flexibility. If one car in the train goes down the entire set is down. With the married pair concept all they have to do take out of service two vs the entire six cars for repairs. I am not going to say that I agree with it - but it is pretty sound reasoning on the MBTA's part.

Now why they couldn't make each married pair articulated at least is an entirely different and very valid question.

 

[fattony]

The MBTA officially gave the reason why they aren't looking into articulated trainsets - they want operational flexibility. If one car in the train goes down the entire set is down. With the married pair concept all they have to do take out of service two vs the entire six cars for repairs. I am not going to say that I agree with it - but it is pretty sound reasoning on the MBTA's part.

Now why they couldn't make each married pair articulated at least is an entirely different and very valid question.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect the marginal cost for the small capacity increase wasn't worth it to go for 2 car articulation. On NYC's articulated prototype, capacity increased by 8-10% per car. Since every car in a 2-car set is an "end car" that reduces to 4-5%.

 

[chmeeee]

The MBTA officially gave the reason why they aren't looking into articulated trainsets - they want operational flexibility. If one car in the train goes down the entire set is down. With the married pair concept all they have to do take out of service two vs the entire six cars for repairs. I am not going to say that I agree with it - but it is pretty sound reasoning on the MBTA's part.

Now why they couldn't make each married pair articulated at least is an entirely different and very valid question.

I feel like you could get the best of both with articulated trains in three car sets.

 

[kingofsheeba]

Getting back on the subject of the OL new train delay...

It's a force of habit when we blame the T for these delays because they have a long track record of being horrible. This time I don't feel that the delay falls on the T. These cars have to go through at least five-hundred types of tests and this delay means that they're probably meeting more federal guidelines to make the trains safe.

Look, the T can either delay the fleet so that we can be safe when they do go into operation and we can be slightly inconvenienced? Or, we can be screaming for our lives because the OL trains had a major glitch that caused a catastrophe and could've been prevented with more testing? People are impatient sometimes.

 

[jass]

Getting back on the subject of the OL new train delay...

It's a force of habit when we blame the T for these delays because they have a long track record of being horrible. This time I don't feel that the delay falls on the T. These cars have to go through at least five-hundred types of tests and this delay means that they're probably meeting more federal guidelines to make the trains safe.

Look, the T can either delay the fleet so that we can be safe when they do go into operation and we can be slightly inconvenienced? Or, we can be screaming for our lives because the OL trains had a major glitch that caused a catastrophe and could've been prevented with more testing? People are impatient sometimes.

What about complaining that they should have been delivered in 2007/2008 as part of the Blue Line order?

 

[Jahvon09]

Getting back on the subject of the OL new train delay...

It's a force of habit when we blame the T for these delays because they have a long track record of being horrible. This time I don't feel that the delay falls on the T. These cars have to go through at least five-hundred types of tests and this delay means that they're probably meeting more federal guidelines to make the trains safe.

Look, the T can either delay the fleet so that we can be safe when they do go into operation and we can be slightly inconvenienced? Or, we can be screaming for our lives because the OL trains had a major glitch that caused a catastrophe and could've been prevented with more testing? People are impatient sometimes.

Yeah, we don't want that tragic accident that happened on June 22, 2009 in Washington , DC to happen here!!

 

[kingofsheeba]

What about complaining that they should have been delivered in 2007/2008 as part of the Blue Line order?

Totally irrelevant to the conversation. That has nothing to do with the current OL delay.

 

[jass]

Yeah, we don't want that tragic accident that happened on June 22, 2009 in Washington , DC to happen here!!

Nothing to do with the trains. Metro has been capable of 100% driverless operation since it was built in the 70s. A faulty section of track made it so that a train was invisible, so the train behind it was driven into it.

Even though it's 2019, and we're on the cusp of self-driving cars, the MBTA as never expressed a desire to move to driverless operations.

Totally irrelevant to the conversation. That has nothing to do with the current OL delay.

Of course not, it's simply related to "a long track record of being horrible"

 

[jass]

I suspect the unions would not be pleased. London has been slowly moving towards it and the strikes and endless threats of strikes are pretty rough... And accross most of the UK where they are trending towards driver only trains, unions really don't like the idea of taking people out of the equation.

On the other hand, Paris is the land of labor strikes, and they've converted 2-3 lines to driverless.

 

[Jahvon09]

That was part of why the new boxes were install on the trains. To avoid any mishaps that might pop up sometime later down the road.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

The T eliminated the #2 and #3 staffers on all Red, Orange, and Blue trains in the last dozen years. And they are now making a move with the Type 10 order to cull staffing on the Green Line with stretched trains where 2 cars have the capacity of triplets and far off-peaks can be run as singles. They've been able to reduce a ton of inessential staff from the OPTO initiative at noteworthy relief to the agency's payroll.

Let's not forget that measurable progress in our zeal to have a self-satisfying two-minutes hate about something.