On The Dot | 505 Dorchester Avenue | South Boston

'they' is the City. its from the PLAN Dot Ave study and yes for the reasons you mentioned.
It is not under the control of the On The Dot project though since the realignment is on the east side of Dot Ave.
 
It's kind of amazing that on these brand new extensions of Ellery St., they're still leaving space for on-street parking. They could have expanded the sidewalks, or allowed the bike lines to be straight, or expanded the building footprints slightly. They could have left more room for outdoor cafe/retail space. But instead, it'll be space for a handful of cars. What a terrible use of space.
 
Sidewalks are wider. Cafe zones are included in addition to that. Complete streets doesn't mean ignoring cars, whether we want it to or not. Don't assume it's parking. Curb use is needed unless you want the activity occuring in the travel lane. Also don't assume the bike lane isn't straight based on an architects rendering. Bike lane can easily stay straight and there could be a refuge island instead of a bump out as shown.
 
Sidewalks are wider. Cafe zones are included in addition to that. Complete streets doesn't mean ignoring cars, whether we want it to or not. Don't assume it's parking. Curb use is needed unless you want the activity occuring in the travel lane. Also don't assume the bike lane isn't straight based on an architects rendering. Bike lane can easily stay straight and there could be a refuge island instead of a bump out as shown.
Getting rid of on-street parking doesn't mean cars would be ignored. Each of these buildings has their own loading dock (the blue arrows). And separately, 3 of the 4 also have their own parking garage (the black arrows). With those in mind, what curbside activity is left that needs to be on Ellery? If this comes down to a few taxi pickups and dropoffs, then yes, I think that can be done in the travel lane. Especially since these are one-block, dead end streets that should have virtually no traffic. Or at least cut the on-street parking down to a small fraction of what is shown here. There are other things to do with that space.

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Getting rid of on-street parking doesn't mean cars would be ignored. Each of these buildings has their own loading dock (the blue arrows). And separately, 3 of the 4 also have their own parking garage (the black arrows). With those in mind, what curbside activity is left that needs to be on Ellery? If this comes down to a few taxi pickups and dropoffs, then yes, I think that can be done in the travel lane. Especially since these are one-block, dead end streets that should have virtually no traffic. Or at least cut the on-street parking down to a small fraction of what is shown here. There are other things to do with that space.
Im pro bike, I mountain bike as much as I can, I want there to more bike lanes where they are needed and if there were more on major thoroughfares, I would bike more often in the city....
I think these type of borderline militant bike lane opinions really hurt the overall cause. There's a fully protected bike lane right there on Dot Ave! Why do you need another bike on a side street one block over?!?! Its crazy talk
 
I am all for minimal parking, but honestly, I think the configuration of Ellery Street is fine, GREAT for that matter. It is an a very equitable ROW where pedestrians, bikes and cars all have their own space. I commute daily to work via walk or bike in a VERY car dependent city (Nashville, TN and am a Boston area native/graduate) and have been advocating for exactly what Ellery Street is here. If the #bancars people want to complain about something, how about complaining about the car parking along Dot Ave? Like why put parking on such a large collector street? Ellery is actually THE street where on street parking should occur because it is a low traffic street with low speeds.

This project has all the making of solid ROW equity. Curb Extensions, protected lanes for different uses, raised intersection (Ellery center area) are awesome practices for this development. While cars take up a lot more space and we want their impacts minimized, there is a balance that must be played with the market. There is a value to rentability for ground tenant spaces to have some on-street parking. Not every place is entitled to dedicated space, but there is an attractiveness to the convenience that those few spots bring from a tenant standpoint. Here are two examples:
  • Coffee Shop Tenant - Residents/Employees in the area are the most likely to walk to one of these shops during the day or weekend. But a person moving through the city (more than likely via car) may want to patron that shop. If they have to drive around and find the garage, they probably wont stop. If there is a convenient spot right out front, they are more than likely to stop than not. I'm not saying that we have to make parking a car stupid convenient, but providing some (like say how we want bike racks out front of these shops) is not the end of the world.
  • Restaurant Tenant - To attract quality restaurant tenants, many like to provide a valet option to patrons. It is possible that within their lease some of the on-street parking is coned off during restaurant hours to provide a stacking area for the valets to effectively serve those patrons. If that on-street option is not there, then the valet option is in the travel lane, or not provided at all. If valet is not available, those tenants are no longer available to market a space to.
While some might say this is catering too much to car-centric ideals, I say don't be naïve. I am a huge advocate for ROW equity on our public streets, but also understand that cars - while grotesque to some - are a way of life and are always going to be part of our transportation network. It has taken over a decade within the AEC world to find a nice balance between my ideals and the real world, but I like to think I am actually getting there. There needs to be a middle of the road approach.

Try to think of it rom a developer standpoint (I know, they are always rich and evil!!). The extra footprint to the building being described (whether internal rentable space, exterior patio space or public ROW space) that could generate revenue is prolly pretty minimal - if not non-existent - when compared against how much not providing that minimal level of car convenience would hurt their potential prospects for tenants. Projects are still beholden to being able to make money to pay for their construction. If every project limited the rentability of their tenant slots, then a lot less building would occur.
 
Well, this was meant to be a small complaint against a project I generally think is great. But I'll elaborate.

Broadly, I think on-street parking is a bad idea. It takes up a huge amount of space that could be used for other things. It serves a miniscule number of people compared to the space it takes up. It makes driving worse because people parking have to at some point be stopped or backing up into traffic. And parked cars are a big visual barrier that make it harder for drivers to see when a pedestrian is going to step into the street or a crosswalk (especially if it is a child stepping into the street). Especially where space is constrained, like basically anywhere in Boston, I think it's a bad idea to use our precious public space to let people store their private automobiles. I know I'm fighting an uphill battle on this one, but that's roughly how I see it.

I pointed out that I dislike the planned on-street parking on Ellery for a few more specific reasons:

If the #bancars people want to complain about something, how about complaining about the car parking along Dot Ave?
Yeah, that's fair. I also think the parking along Dot Ave is bad. And you're right, it might be worse. My problem with the parking on Ellery is that those are brand new streets segments. They don't exist at all right now. Dot Ave has a status quo of parking that people will fight to protect, but Ellery is a total blank slate and we can design it however we want. It is disheartening to use that space for car storage of questionable value.
Coffee Shop Tenant - Residents/Employees in the area are the most likely to walk to one of these shops during the day or weekend. But a person moving through the city (more than likely via car) may want to patron that shop. If they have to drive around and find the garage, they probably wont stop. If there is a convenient spot right out front, they are more than likely to stop than not.
I'm really skeptical that a significant number of people drive around the densest parts of Boston to get a cup of coffee. That number dwindles further when only considering people willing to drive, but can't find one of the three immediately adjacent parking garages.
And either way, I don't think we should be encouraging people to drive a personal vehicle crosstown for coffee. One of the huge advantages of this project is it is 100 yards from a T stop. That Andrew Station is also a hub for 6 or 7 bus lines. This is some of the greatest Transit Oriented Development going up in the region. Why would we want to encourage more cars to go through here?
Sidewalks are wider.
Yes, the sidewalks are wide enough in this plan, but only because the building footprint is cut back and the sidewalks run on private property. You can see it really clearly by flipping through the last few pages of the most recent presentation. Those pics show Dot Ave, but it's the same problem all the way around. The on-street parking currently cuts into the sidewalk so much that there hardly anything left. To fix that, the sidewalk should be extended into what is now just parking. Instead, the sidewalk gets widened into the private property, and the proposed building has to shrink. (This seems to be happening at a lot of projects around Boston, now).
The extra footprint to the building being described (whether internal rentable space, exterior patio space or public ROW space) that could generate revenue is prolly pretty minimal - if not non-existent -
No, I don't think it's minimal. On just the ground floor, removing the on-street parking would be an extra 10 feet along most the width and length of the building. That's one, maybe two thousand square feet. If that's just for cafe space, any restaurant would desperately want an extra couple thousand square feet. If that space was used to expand the building footprint, then that's a couple thousand square feet over each of 15 stories, here. Space-wise, that's the same as adding a couple of stories to the building. That's huge.
Cafe zones are included in addition to that.
Just eyeballing it, but there looks like there is as much space for on-street parking on Ellery as there is cafe space. If you look at all the cafe space and parking around these couple of blocks, there's more land area dedicated to car storage, by a wide margin.
Restaurant Tenant - To attract quality restaurant tenants, many like to provide a valet option to patrons. It is possible that within their lease some of the on-street parking is coned off during restaurant hours to provide a stacking area for the valets to effectively serve those patrons. If that on-street option is not there, then the valet option is in the travel lane, or not provided at all. If valet is not available, those tenants are no longer available to market a space to.
Again, this means we're dedicated all that land area for the small sliver of people willing to drive to Andrew Square, but not willing to park in the garage immediately around the corner. And I just don't buy it that valet parking is that important. This city has plenty of expensive and fancy restaurants with no valet parking (often no parking at all). All over the North End, or Back Bay, South End, Harvard Square....

There's a fully protected bike lane right there on Dot Ave! Why do you need another bike on a side street one block over?!?! Its crazy talk
I wasn't really advocating for a bike lane on Ellery. I mean, there's already one in the plans, and I think that's a good thing. Maybe it could use some tweaks.

But oh I wish, I wish, that same logic was sometimes applied to car infrastructure. "Why do we need cars on this street when there are cars a block away? Why do we need a full lane for parking cars when there's a whole parking garage around the corner?!?! Its crazy talk...."
 
I am all for minimal parking, but honestly, I think the configuration of Ellery Street is fine, GREAT for that matter. It is an a very equitable ROW where pedestrians, bikes and cars all have their own space. I commute daily to work via walk or bike in a VERY car dependent city (Nashville, TN and am a Boston area native/graduate) and have been advocating for exactly what Ellery Street is here. If the #bancars people want to complain about something, how about complaining about the car parking along Dot Ave? Like why put parking on such a large collector street? Ellery is actually THE street where on street parking should occur because it is a low traffic street with low speeds.

This project has all the making of solid ROW equity. Curb Extensions, protected lanes for different uses, raised intersection (Ellery center area) are awesome practices for this development. While cars take up a lot more space and we want their impacts minimized, there is a balance that must be played with the market. There is a value to rentability for ground tenant spaces to have some on-street parking. Not every place is entitled to dedicated space, but there is an attractiveness to the convenience that those few spots bring from a tenant standpoint. Here are two examples:
  • Coffee Shop Tenant - Residents/Employees in the area are the most likely to walk to one of these shops during the day or weekend. But a person moving through the city (more than likely via car) may want to patron that shop. If they have to drive around and find the garage, they probably wont stop. If there is a convenient spot right out front, they are more than likely to stop than not. I'm not saying that we have to make parking a car stupid convenient, but providing some (like say how we want bike racks out front of these shops) is not the end of the world.
  • Restaurant Tenant - To attract quality restaurant tenants, many like to provide a valet option to patrons. It is possible that within their lease some of the on-street parking is coned off during restaurant hours to provide a stacking area for the valets to effectively serve those patrons. If that on-street option is not there, then the valet option is in the travel lane, or not provided at all. If valet is not available, those tenants are no longer available to market a space to.
While some might say this is catering too much to car-centric ideals, I say don't be naïve. I am a huge advocate for ROW equity on our public streets, but also understand that cars - while grotesque to some - are a way of life and are always going to be part of our transportation network. It has taken over a decade within the AEC world to find a nice balance between my ideals and the real world, but I like to think I am actually getting there. There needs to be a middle of the road approach.

Try to think of it rom a developer standpoint (I know, they are always rich and evil!!). The extra footprint to the building being described (whether internal rentable space, exterior patio space or public ROW space) that could generate revenue is prolly pretty minimal - if not non-existent - when compared against how much not providing that minimal level of car convenience would hurt their potential prospects for tenants. Projects are still beholden to being able to make money to pay for their construction. If every project limited the rentability of their tenant slots, then a lot less building would occur.

Hey, you called? :p
 
But oh I wish, I wish, that same logic was sometimes applied to car infrastructure. "Why do we need cars on this street when there are cars a block away? Why do we need a full lane for parking cars when there's a whole parking garage around the corner?!?! Its crazy talk...."
Little kids, old people, disabled people cant use bikes as transportation. When you're so resolute in your cause you can really hurt it. Perfect is the enemy of good enough is all I'm saying
 
Little kids, old people, disabled people cant use bikes as transportation. When you're so resolute in your cause you can really hurt it. Perfect is the enemy of good enough is all I'm saying
I think you are misunderstanding the point. I can't speak for others, but as a dedicated bike activist, I don't much care if there is bike infrastructure on a street that only goes a few blocks. I think the point to which you replied was intended to mean that it would be nice if more drivers took the same attitude that I just expressed -- a street like the proposed Ellery doesn't provide a meaningful enough utilization to be necessary. And it certainly doesn't need to go as far as it does to accommodate car culture. Don't mistake that as a demand that it be closed off, it's more a demand for consistent logic.
 
I think you are misunderstanding the point. I can't speak for others, but as a dedicated bike activist, I don't much care if there is bike infrastructure on a street that only goes a few blocks. I think the point to which you replied was intended to mean that it would be nice if more drivers took the same attitude that I just expressed -- a street like the proposed Ellery doesn't provide a meaningful enough utilization to be necessary. And it certainly doesn't need to go as far as it does to accommodate car culture. Don't mistake that as a demand that it be closed off, it's more a demand for consistent logic.
its possible I am misunderstanding, all I'm saying is the majority of the US population abhors bike lanes and the militant advocacy for bike lanes where they're not all that necessary in certain cases just works against the cause. Railing against creating a street with parking in between buildings, when its been happening this way for people's entire lives, doesnt push the agenda you hope it does. It follows many other progressive ideals- just because in your brain you've gotten all the way there doesn't mean you should lose empathy for others that are stuck in the past. Make incremental improvements, allow the general population to realize the good in these and then further the progression to a greater good.
 
Make incremental improvements, allow the general population to realize the good in these and then further the progression to a greater good.
I think that's pretty explicitly the suggestion above -- don't build a new street with overly redundant car features where there was none before, but leave the other street as it is. So in this instance, the incremental change is to slightly lessen the car focus of Ellery, while leaving Dot Ave as it is. This meets the very definition of incrementalism.
 
I think that's pretty explicitly the suggestion above -- don't build a new street with overly redundant car features where there was none before, but leave the other street as it is. So in this instance, the incremental change is to slightly lessen the car focus of Ellery, while leaving Dot Ave as it is. This meets the very definition of incrementalism.
I disagree, it doesnt come across that way at all to me. Agree to disagree
 
all I'm saying is the majority of the US population abhors bike lanes
⬆️ This isn't remotely accurate and we've got receipts:

 
⬆️ This isn't remotely accurate and we've got receipts:

That's one poll with a small data set. I'm not even against you guys but this stuff just proves how militant you are
 
Ah yes, the old "I reject your empirical evidence because I have none of my own, and your attempts to introduce facts into this debate only demonstrates how militant you are" argument
You're nitpicking so you can prove yourself correct. My whole point was while I AGREE WITH YOUR OVERALL CAUSE, you guys always manage to come across as extremist assholes and it hurts your cause. And you are continuing to prove my point. Railing against a minor side street and parking in between large buildings counterproductive to furthering bike lanes. That was my whole point but you have to pull apart ancillary points in order to prove yourself.
 
Little kids, old people, disabled people cant use bikes as transportation. When you're so resolute in your cause you can really hurt it. Perfect is the enemy of good enough is all I'm saying
I really wasn't just saying the on-street parking spaces should be used for bike lanes. I was saying that space would be better used for almost anything else. Around the city, on-street parking spaces could be used for: expanded sidewalks; cafe space; outdoor retail space, either for adjacent brick-and-mortar stores or people setting up stands; trees; benches; mini plazas; neighborhood garbage bins, so garbage bags don't sit on the curb to be pecked open by seagulls (my least favorite part of living in the South End many years ago). If transportation is the priority, getting rid of on-street parking frees up space for: dedicated bus lanes; bus platforms for level boarding; dedicated ROW for the E Branch on Huntington; real platforms for the E all the way to Heath (or expand it all the way to Arborway); bus stop shelters; docking stations for bikes and scooters; and yes, in some cases, bike lanes. Any of those things is better for transportation than a lane of parked cars.

My preference in the specific case of this project: getting rid of the on-street parking would make it more practical for the buildings to expand their footprints all the way the property line (instead of having to give up space to make a functional sidewalk). Bumping out the building footprint that bit in each direction would add 10s of thousands of square feet to each building. That's an extra apartment or two on each of ~15 floors. So the trade off, as I see it, is a couple dozen extra apartments, or a couple dozen parking spaces.
 
Little kids, old people, disabled people cant use bikes as transportation. When you're so resolute in your cause you can really hurt it. Perfect is the enemy of good enough is all I'm saying
I'm old (74), and I get on my conventional non-motorized bicycle several times a week, weather allowing, and peddle for 15 miles including some hills. I expect to be doing this at least through my 70s.
 

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