Other People's Rail: Amtrak, commuter rail, rapid transit news & views outside New England

[ritchiew]

Versailles appears to have a population density of ~8,200/sqmi (and real-world numbers are probably more like ~16,000+/sqmi, since half the place is parkland from the famous palace, so the population is all concentrated in the other half). That may be the "suburbs" of Paris, but those are some pretty urban population densities.

Yeah, the article says the train goes through "suburban towns," which is pretty misleading. For Paris, all the huge, modern apartment buildings get built right outside city limits. This train goes will through those. This new train has a stop at La Défense. That's kind of like saying the MIT/Kendall stop is in a "suburban town."

 

[HenryAlan]

Incredible! I lived in Versailles car-free for a year and share the pain of the woman interviewed. Getting anywhere by bus would take easily 1.5-2 hours. It discouraged me to the point where I rarely went anywhere but central Paris.

This makes me long for that outer ring MBTA line around the Boston metro (that, let's face it, we'll never get in our lifetime).

No doubt poor local transit can be frustrating. But it's hard to take from a Boston perspective, when my experience with Versaille and the RER last time I was in Paris seemed like incredible transit relative to what we have here. Maybe once we have a true regional rail system, we'll start to have some conversations about that outer ring.

Are there any US city proposals to connect suburbs with metro lines? I can only recall the Purple Line in the DC Maryland suburbs.

Los Angeles is doing this to a certain extent. The C-Line doesn't go anywhere near the core, instead having two fairly urban suburbs as the termini. The K-Line is similar in this regard, and when they build the Sepulveda corridor route, that will likewise be suburb to suburb, as it connects the San Fernando Valley* with Santa Monica.

* the Valley is technically within the city of Los Angeles, but it is very suburban compared to where most of the other rail lines go.

 

[Teban54]

No doubt poor local transit can be frustrating, but it's hard to take from a Boston perspective, when my experience with Versaille and the RER last time I was in Paris seemed like incredible transit relative to what we have here. Maybe once we have a true regional rail system, we'll start to have some conversations about that outer ring.

Los Angeles is doing this to a certain extent. The C-Line doesn't go anywhere near the core, instead having two fairly urban suburbs as the termini. The K-Line is similar in this regard, and when they build the Sepulveda corridor route, that will likewise be suburb to suburb, as it connects the San Fernando Valley* with Santa Monica.

* the Valley is technically within the city of Los Angeles, but it is very suburban compared to where most of the other rail lines go.

I think it's worth noting that jobs in LA have always been very pluricentric, as shown here: (link)


That's not quite true for Boston, at least until now:

(Image taken from my earlier comment here, website here, tutorial here thanks to Riverside)

Yes, there are smaller-sized employment centers further out (LMA, Kendall, the universities, even Nubian?), but the vast majority of jobs are in the downtown core that roughly go out to Government Center, Back Bay and Seaport.

The following map (interactive tool here) only shows the City of Boston, but seems to support this idea:

(I wasn't able to find a good job density map for metro Boston, so someone feel free to suggest one.)

 

[lainpimicaja]

New Alstrom Liberty trains for Amtrak's Northeast Corridor are moving closer to being in service (annoyingly, no mention of when in this story): https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/01...-amtrak-moves-toward-faster-trains-northeast/

 

[bakgwailo]

New Alstrom Liberty trains for Amtrak's Northeast Corridor are moving closer to being in service (annoyingly, no mention of when in this story): https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/01...-amtrak-moves-toward-faster-trains-northeast/

That's great news. Some conjecture in other forums suggest pretty aggressive/fast tracked (pun semi-intended) testing from here on out with the new trains hopefully going into revenue service this year. If so, then who ever had the MBTA in the most botched rolling stock order race wins.

 

[Teban54]

Since there have been several mentions and ideas involving elevated subways on this forum lately - ranging from APMs, a Charles River crossing, and even an elevated NSRL - it might be a good time to mention this recent Reddit discussion on Els (in a general transit sub, not a Boston one). Overall, the comments are overwhelmingly in favor of new Els.

 

[stick n move]

Silver spring transit center progress on the Maryland purple line. Crews are installing canopies for the eastbound and westbound lines. This station is around the midway point on the line, nice to see the progress so far.

Lots more photos of the recent progress at the link
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=762556025899194&set=a.549684893852976&type=3

I was able to find an official map of the layout of the station on the purple line md website.

https://www.purplelinemd.com/about-the-project/project-maps

 

[bdurden]

Silver Spring should be a popular Purple Line stop with a direct connection to Metro. This makes me a bit envious for what could be across Cambridge, Somerville etc.

 

[Teban54]

London's Elizabeth Line is so successful that it shook up the list of most used transit stations in the city:

Elizabeth Line popularity tailors a swift shift in Britain’s busiest stations

There are unprecedented numbers of passengers flocking to the Elizabeth Line. That popularity is music to the ears of the backers of the multi-billion pound project. The new railway, crossing London from east to west, has shaken up the charts too. Now, the busiest stations in Britain are almost...

www.railtech.com

Related: In 2013, South Station was the busiest rapid transit station on the MBTA. While I don't expect a full switchover due to NSRL, as it doesn’t bypass North and South stations nor add new connections elsewhere (other than a possible Aquarium station), I wonder how its ridership will change after NSRL.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

London's Elizabeth Line is so successful that it shook up the list of most used transit stations in the city:

Elizabeth Line popularity tailors a swift shift in Britain’s busiest stations

There are unprecedented numbers of passengers flocking to the Elizabeth Line. That popularity is music to the ears of the backers of the multi-billion pound project. The new railway, crossing London from east to west, has shaken up the charts too. Now, the busiest stations in Britain are almost...

www.railtech.com

Related: In 2013, South Station was the busiest rapid transit station on the MBTA. While I don't expect a full switchover due to NSRL, as it doesn’t bypass North and South stations nor add new connections elsewhere (other than a possible Aquarium station), I wonder how its ridership will change after NSRL.

Probably increase a lot once you get the northside tied in. Transfers to Cambridge for everybody commuting up north. While central Orange Line loading is likely to decrease by a lot, and some segments of the Green Line a little...Red will see brand new swells of ridership. It's why building NSRL more or less requires us to build the Urban Ring as a radial reliever for the downtown transfers...especially the northern half Sullivan-Cambridge. Red is pretty overloaded today; the additional NSRL loads could be paralyzing for it.

 

[BosMaineiac]

Probably increase a lot once you get the northside tied in. Transfers to Cambridge for everybody commuting up north. While central Orange Line loading is likely to decrease by a lot, and some segments of the Green Line a little...Red will see brand new swells of ridership. It's why building NSRL more or less requires us to build the Urban Ring as a radial reliever for the downtown transfers...especially the northern half Sullivan-Cambridge. Red is pretty overloaded today; the additional NSRL loads could be paralyzing for it.

Do you think that tips the scales for a blue line extension westward via Cambridge over Kenmore? Or do you think an urban ring-regional rail connection at Sullivan could pick up a lot of Cambridge-bound traffic from the north side? Maybe even with an additional UR-RR connection at east Somerville

 

[Teban54]

Do you think that tips the scales for a blue line extension westward via Cambridge over Kenmore? Or do you think an urban ring-regional rail connection at Sullivan could pick up a lot of Cambridge-bound traffic from the north side? Maybe even with an additional UR-RR connection at east Somerville

Even disregarding the demand question for BLX-to-Kendall, from an engineering perspective: Given that Red-Blue is progressing way more rapidly than any further Blue Line extensions beyond Charles/MGH (which really says something), and that a tunnel under Charles River will require a depth below the BL Charles/MGH station being planned, such an extension will only get built if we're willing to completely destroy the current iteration of Red-Blue and rebuild it. In other words, probably not happening in reality.

 

[BosMaineiac]

and that a tunnel under Charles River will require a depth below the BL Charles/MGH station being planned, such an extension will only get built if we're willing to completely destroy the current iteration of Red-Blue and rebuild it

I think you're assuming that the BL Charles crossing would need to remain on the same alignment as the Longfellow. There's plenty of room to the north of Charles/MGH to hypothetically build an incline to the required depth to get under the river and one that also ties into the BL station there (which hasn't been completely designed BTW). And, yes, moving somewhat into crazy transit pitches, my question is more of capacity from Boston-Cambridge. If a problem like F-Line states arises, will the UR be enough to solve it?

 

[Teban54]

Amtrak selects builder for Frederick Douglass Tunnel - Trains

BALTIMORE — Amtrak has selected a Kiewit/J.F. Shea Joint Venture to build the Frederick Douglass Tunnel, the replacement for 150-year-old B&P Tunnel which poses major operating issues on the Northeast Corridor just south of Baltimore Penn Station. The approximately $6 billion project involves...

www.trains.com

$6 billion for a 2-mile bore. Damn.

 

[TheRatmeister]

Amtrak selects builder for Frederick Douglass Tunnel - Trains

BALTIMORE — Amtrak has selected a Kiewit/J.F. Shea Joint Venture to build the Frederick Douglass Tunnel, the replacement for 150-year-old B&P Tunnel which poses major operating issues on the Northeast Corridor just south of Baltimore Penn Station. The approximately $6 billion project involves...

www.trains.com

$6 billion for a 2-mile bore. Damn.

Seems like that $6 billion number includes a lot more than just the tunnel.

— Replacing five roadway and rail bridges; building new rail infrastructure, including interlockings, tracks, catenary and power systems, and constructing a new ADA-accessible West Baltimore MARC Station.

— Building the two tubes of the tunnel.

— Fitting the tunnel with tracks, rail systems, and ventilation facilities.

 

[Teban54]

Seems like that $6 billion number includes a lot more than just the tunnel.

To me, the only things remotely out of ordinary here are the bridges, but that's often also a necessity for many other rapid transit and mainline rail projects (GLX included). Everything else, such as tracks, interlockings, power systems, ventilation and stations, are parts of the normal tunneling infrastructure that will also be built for any other tunnel. Overall, I think it's not too far off as a rough estimate of 2024 TBM costs (hopefully on the upper end).

 

[HenryAlan]

Amtrak selects builder for Frederick Douglass Tunnel - Trains

BALTIMORE — Amtrak has selected a Kiewit/J.F. Shea Joint Venture to build the Frederick Douglass Tunnel, the replacement for 150-year-old B&P Tunnel which poses major operating issues on the Northeast Corridor just south of Baltimore Penn Station. The approximately $6 billion project involves...

www.trains.com

$6 billion for a 2-mile bore. Damn.

Does that mean we could at least get a two track NSRL for $3 billion? If so, sign me up!

 

[JeffDowntown]

Does that mean we could at least get a two track NSRL for $3 billion? If so, sign me up!

A big cost missing from the Baltimore-Fredrick Douglas Tunnel is two (or perhaps 3) deep connecting stations, which NSRL has to have at North and South Station (and perhaps Aquarium).

Very deep station construction plus all the redundant vertical circulation is going to cost a lot in NSRL.

Plus we have a lot more portals and access inclines to construct. (3 on the south side IIRC). Underground switches, flying junctions to merge the tracks?

 

[TheRatmeister]

To me, the only things remotely out of ordinary here are the bridges, but that's often also a necessity for many other rapid transit and mainline rail projects (GLX included). Everything else, such as tracks, interlockings, power systems, ventilation and stations, are parts of the normal tunneling infrastructure that will also be built for any other tunnel. Overall, I think it's not too far off as a rough estimate of 2024 TBM costs (hopefully on the upper end).

I did find one article that claims that the cost of everything that's not the tunnel is somewhere in the $1-2 billion range. That would put the cost per mile for the actual tunnels at ~$2 billion, which seems to be about in line with the LA Regional connector. That being said, the preferred method for the NSRL is a single bore tunnel that also contains the station, so the cost estimations become much more difficult and could diverge significantly.

 

[Longfellow]

I did find one article that claims that the cost of everything that's not the tunnel is somewhere in the $1-2 billion range. That would put the cost per mile for the actual tunnels at ~$2 billion, which seems to be about in line with the LA Regional connector. That being said, the preferred method for the NSRL is a single bore tunnel that also contains the station, so the cost estimations become much more difficult and could diverge significantly.

Obviously the NSRL should be an El down Congress St and then we can just Urban Renewal anything that ends up in the way /s