Poll: The Next Big Project

[vanshnookenraggen]

Red-Blue and Green-Silver fix things that are broken, whereas North-South just makes something much, much better.

This is the best argument so far. But it still means making a choice.

I voted for the NS Link for the reasons many here have already expressed, namely that it would revolutionize transportation in the greater Boston area as opposed to a single spot. It would, however, have to be a total package thing where you have the tunnel, new EMU service, and new stations along existing lines to make it useful. You could easily have subway style service running out to 128 along existing lines very much like London's Overground system. But that is a project on the same scale as the Big Dig (almost).

Fixing choke points in the existing system would indeed make the subway run smoother while smaller improvements to the CR could still be done on the cheap.

But I guess what I meant by posting this poll is if we only could build one thing what would be the most transformative for the money? I still think the NS Link which would also be an easier sell for suburban politicians because it would also allow for improved service to outlying towns as opposed to just Boston.

 

[HenryAlan]

It would, however, have to be a total package thing where you have the tunnel, new EMU service, and new stations along existing lines to make it useful. You could easily have subway style service running out to 128 along existing lines very much like London's Overground system. But that is a project on the same scale as the Big Dig (almost).

If it were the full package, including the RT service pattern on all lines within 128, then yeah, I guess I'd vote that way. It would, in fact, also alleviate pressure from downtown chokepoints by taking passengers from outlying areas off of the Red and Orange Lines altogether. People taking a bus to Forest Hills or Porter might opt for RER over subway, just as an example.

It would be interesting to think what would have done more for Boston transportation -- the actual Big Dig, or this (almost) Big Dig.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

Really, Red-Blue should have happened as mitigation for the Gov't Center closure, because it's royally screwing things up.

Just want to say... this^. A thousand times, this^. I said it before and will say it again: Red-Blue should have been done with the Charles/MGH rehabilitation and ADA upgrade. And then Government Center could have been replaced following completion.

 

[FK4]

I should preface this by saying that I don't know the numbers for what Red-Blue would get you, but it's hard to see it rising above a major transit connection to the Seaport involving two lines (OL & GL, which I think is how everyone agrees this connection would pan out). The Blue runs under Maverick but then is basically right against the waterfront - so first off, its coverage only includes territory to the west of the stations, and for the most part, it runs through spotty pockets of communities, rather than through a solidly dense corridor; it really misses most of Revere and it only touches the narrow part of the isthmus to Winthrop. So although I think the Red-Blue is a no-brainer and ought to be done, I don't think it would have the impact as really plugging the Seaport in (because, as I said above, this would really connect a whole new line to TWO existing lines, three if you count the Red Line).

But I voted NSRL. Regionally - and locally - this is the game changer. God knows what kind of savings the system will reap not having to maintain two separate systems. It makes so many new connections possible - which in turn may end up making many other transit projects that we talk about here unnecessary. I don't think anyone can really predict what sort of transit pattern would end up being possible and successful at this point, but there are a lot. Just finally having Boston not being the northern END OF THE LINE for the NEC, psychologically, is huge! Dukakis thinks this one should be numero uno, and I'm with him.

 

[Matthew]

Blue Line walk sheds aren't that great past Maverick but the line itself serves a large number of heavily, heavily used buses from Chelsea, Lynn and the North Shore.

NSRL has to include an organizational revamp that reforms all of the 19th century-style steam-era bullshit that currently prevents proper, modern, world-class passenger service from operating on the current commuter rail. I wonder if that might be harder than digging the damn tunnel.

 

[George_Apley]

NSRL has to include an organizational revamp that reforms all of the 19th century-style steam-era bullshit that currently prevents proper, modern, world-class passenger service from operating on the current commuter rail. I wonder if that might be harder than digging the damn tunnel.

It will definitely be harder. The tunnel (along with whatever number of portals that are built) just needs funding. Upgrading the entire regional rail network to electrification, plus reforming our RR transit bureaucracy, plus dealing with every NIMBY exurban town makes that so much harder than just building the damn tunnel.

 

[FK4]

It will definitely be harder. The tunnel (along with whatever number of portals that are built) just needs funding. Upgrading the entire regional rail network to electrification, plus reforming our RR transit bureaucracy, plus dealing with every NIMBY exurban town makes that so much harder than just building the damn tunnel.

Yes, but... Build the link, pick just one line on each end to reform, and the improvements would be so dazzling it would be a self-perpetuating argument. Also, if the northern line to be reformed is the Rockport, that scoops up a lot of the bus traffic feeding the Blue in the first place.

Since the question is about making the biggest transformation for money spent, it's hard to say the Blue connection would fulfill this since it's such a specific area served. #1 NSRL and #2 Seaport cnnxn

 

[HenryAlan]

Out of curiosity, what is meant when we talk of reforming the CR lines? Electrification, better signaling, double tracking, that sort of thing? Or something more substantial like ROW straightening?

 

[George_Apley]

Yes, but... Build the link, pick just one line on each end to reform, and the improvements would be so dazzling it would be a self-perpetuating argument.

What are you expected the route to accomplish? Salem - Riverside will dazzle? Or Lowell - Norwood? What level of service are you expecting through the link that will lead to a self-perpetuating drive towards additional portals/electrification?

Also, if the northern line to be reformed is the Rockport, that scoops up a lot of the bus traffic feeding the Blue in the first place.

To what station? Just Chelsea?

 

[George_Apley]

Out of curiosity, what is meant when we talk of reforming the CR lines? Electrification, better signaling, double tracking, that sort of thing? Or something more substantial like ROW straightening?

I can't imagine anything like ROW straightening. The ROWs that MBCR runs on are locked in place by over a century of surrounding development. To use the link you'd need electrification, and portal construction. If you want capacity enhancement you need modern signals and double tracking, especially if you're sharing with freight schedules. If we want RER-style service to actually be meaningful, you need to pressure MBTA member communities served by RER-type service to upzone-TOD around their stations.

It could be completely transformational, but you're going to be fighting tooth-and-nail for funding and political support every baby step of the way. I don't see it becoming a perpetual motion machine like FK does.

 

[HenryAlan]

I go back and forth on whether it's very useful at all. If it is something that results in short reliable headways, so that I can depend on a train in Roslindale at predictable 20 minute intervals, that's pretty useful, more so than an Orange Line extension. And I could see occasionally taking it to Chelsea or Porter Square. But mostly, it just makes it marginally easier to get to North Station. But the main benefit of better headways is more easily achieved by South Station expansion and improved signaling in the Southwest Corridor. So why don't we just do that instead?

 

[George_Apley]

I go back and forth on whether it's very useful at all. If it is something that results in short reliable headways, so that I can depend on a train in Roslindale at predictable 20 minute intervals, that's pretty useful, more so than an Orange Line extension. And I could see occasionally taking it to Chelsea or Porter Square. But mostly, it just makes it marginally easier to get to North Station. But the main benefit of better headways is more easily achieved by South Station expansion and improved signaling in the Southwest Corridor. So why don't we just do that instead?

Unfortunately for Roslindale riders, the Needham Line isn't going to get any RER-type service. There's not enough space on the NEC to allow for an expanded Needham Line schedule. Needham will keep getting choked out until they have to do the Green/Orange split and do away with the Needham Line all together.

I also don't see DMU/EMU RER-type service as this panacea of headways some people seem to think it will be. You're getting at best 15-18 minute peak headways. That's why it's called "Rapid Transit Like" service. It's not RT. It's in between traditional Commuter Rail and true Rapid Transit, with the benefit of using the universal rail infrastructure.

In order for a Boston RER sort of service to be truly transformational, we also need buy in from the participating municipalities to pretty heavily upzone around the stations. Unless you can get the town meetings/city councils on board, it won't be that transformational.

 

[FK4]

What are you expected the route to accomplish? Salem - Riverside will dazzle? Or Lowell - Norwood? What level of service are you expecting through the link that will lead to a self-perpetuating drive towards additional portals/electrification?

Yes, actually, it will. Not because someone in Salem travels to Riverside, but they can travel to Fenway and LMA without spending an hour on the Green Line. All of the Newton traffic now has access to the vicinity of N Station, Govt Ctr and State St without the transfer.

To what station? Just Chelsea?

Other than Maverick, as I already said, the Blue Line is ill-placed for people walking to any of the stations. As Matthew said, most of the passengers on the rest of the stations are coming from buses that handle the interior portions of EB, Revere and Chelsea. These are the people Blue-Red helps out. Make a decent and modernized rail that connects the lower North Shore to South Station and you have the connection to the Red, the Financial District, Seaport (though the SL will handle this, I imagine the morning Ted trips will be agonizing), etc. Reroute bus routes to make Chelsea station a bus hub, consider an infill station adjacent to Wonderland as well.

 

[George_Apley]

Oof. I wrote a big post and it got eaten by the interwebs... maybe I'll rewrite it later if I have time.

 

[underground]

What are you expected the route to accomplish? Salem - Riverside will dazzle? Or Lowell - Norwood? What level of service are you expecting through the link that will lead to a self-perpetuating drive towards additional portals/electrification?

Adding to what FK4 said, it also solves a lot of platform constraint issues. And that in turn solves a lot of headway issues since lack of idling spots at North and South Stations is one of the major limiting factors to service increases. Send more or your CR routes through the Link, and suddenly you've got more spots to hold trains at South Station. Couple that with South Station expansion, and now you've got TONS fewer constraints.

But you're completely right; if the project is about getting a one seat from Norwood to Salem, that's a failure.

 

[JeffDowntown]

But you're completely right; if the project is about getting a one seat from Norwood to Salem, that's a failure.

I think the N/S link is more about getting from Salem to South Station and/or Red or Silver line in-city connections; and getting from Norwood to North Station and/or Green or Orange line in-city connections.

As well as the overall operational efficiency of CR.

 

[underground]

Agree. That's why I started with, "adding to what FK4 said."

 

[George_Apley]

There will definitely be large benefits to having a North Side RER-style service through- run on the Framingham/Worcester Line to the employment and entertainment centers around Back Bay and Yawkey, on its way to a short-turn at Riverside or Framingham.

The issue is, as I see it, that every northern line (Fitchburg, New Hampshire Main, Boston & Maine Western, and Boston & Maine Eastern) has both the capacity and the demand for some sort of inner RER-type service. Of the southern routes, only Framingham/Worcester and Fairmount have both the capacity and the demand to implement 15-18 minute headways.

Worcester can handle it with signal and passing track upgrades. Fairmount is already ready for RT-like service.

Old Colony can't handle high headways due to the pinch in Dorchester. Removing that pinch is a megaproject all its own. Old Colony won't get a portal into the Link until that's done. No one will budget for it.

The NEC will be handling both higher frequencies of Amtrak service as well as higher MBCR traffic - especially after the Link is built. Projected congestion on the NEC will already eventually box out the Needham Line by choking it to death, so there won't be any capacity on the NEC for an RER to Needham. Needham's getting choked to death by the NEC's growth and will eventually need to be replaced with a Green/Orange paired extension. That means there won't be any 'MUs running 18 minute headways on the NEC. The capacity isn't there now and won't be there in the future.

If routed along the Fairmount, the Franklin Line could probably handle high headway service to Norwood or Walpole.

The first southern Link portal to be built will be for the NEC, which will likely also include access for the Worcester Line. The northern portal will likely be able to include both the Lowell Line and the Eastern and Western Routes (Fitchburg won't get one). Problem is, the Worcester Line will only be able to handle one high headway RER (pick Lowell, Reading or Salem/Peabody). With the initial build there's no other option for routing 18 min headway 'MUs through the link. That leaves any 'MUs running on the remaining four northern lines to terminate on the surface at North Station.

The next priority should probably be electrification and portal construction for Fairmount and maybe some of Franklin. There won't be as much demand for an RER to the Fairmount since there's no employment centers along it. Commuters will take a Link-running train to South Station, but not many will stay on beyond that because the Fairmount runs through residential neighborhoods. That lack of demand, and the high costs of building the portal and electrifying the line will make this one a political battle, but it's still probably the easiest way to get another RER-type line through the link.

Old Colony will have to wait until the Dorchester mess is funded and fixed, and Needham is getting squeezed on its existing schedule, let alone at higher headways.

Realistically, as far as transformational RER-type service goes, the most to expect is two high-headway,through-running routes (something like Lowell - Riverside and Peabody - Walpole). That's it for RER.

Of course the Link also allows Amtrak to bomb north to Portland, Portsmouth or Manchester. It also allows the traditional commuter rail to beef up capacity and through-run on routes that make sense, which will be a big deal for commuters who can have their one seat ride to South Station or Back Bay from the north, or North Station from the south.

The high-headway EMU RT-lite service is not going to be a panacea though.

 

[George_Apley]

Adding to what FK4 said, it also solves a lot of platform constraint issues. And that in turn solves a lot of headway issues since lack of idling spots at North and South Stations is one of the major limiting factors to service increases. Send more or your CR routes through the Link, and suddenly you've got more spots to hold trains at South Station. Couple that with South Station expansion, and now you've got TONS fewer constraints.

But you're completely right; if the project is about getting a one seat from Norwood to Salem, that's a failure.

Definitely. It will be BFD for MBCR commuters on the Commuter Rail lines that will have access to the Link from Day 1, and who now can avoid the rapid transit system entirely.

My argument is more with those who believe that the N-S Link will allow the creation of a Paris-like RER system with high headways. Many of our southern rail lines can't actually handle that sort of system. The NEC never will have the capacity, and the Old Colony would require a separate mega-project to permit it. Like I said above, if we want RER, we're getting at most two lines, and only one line if the politics and budgeting preclude a Fairmount portal/electrification.

I also disagree with FK that because people will love being able to commute from Lowell to the Back Bay (for example) with a 1-seat-ride at 18 minute headways, that it will lead to massive political support for more portals for more commuter lines. The Worcester Line is special in that it goes through the Back Bay and Fenway.

 

[Arlington]

Sorry, while Red-Blue does take a load off the core, I see Blue-Silver (as part of the Chelsea project) as getting Blue the access it needs to South Station and the Seaport.

And Red-Silver has long since gotten Red its access to the airport.

As soon as you start talking about larger trips that cross the core to get to someplace else (eg, Eastie-Downtown-Cambridge), while true that only Red-Blue gets you that particular route (and a couple others), its N-S that opens up a full range of such strips *and* gets you just South Sta to North Sta (as a same seat or +1 ride) instead of todays always +2 seats.

And if you like to talk about simpler "minimum system" benefits. maybe N-S goes into ops without its portals, as just a NS-SS shutttle.