Portland Passenger Rail

[markhb]

Stop calling in Haverhill and Woburn. They're low-ridership stops which already have decent MBTA Commuter rail service. The large majority of riders boarding / alighting in Haverhill are Massachusetts commuters who use the Downeaster as an "express" alternative to the Commuter Rail.

My gut feeling is that those stops are part of the sweetheart deal NNEPRA has with the MBTA / Keolis / MassDOT to use their tracks (and slots in North Station) for cheap. Woburn may be low-ridership but it's capturing people who might live north of the city and who don't want to drive into town to catch a train north (and they aren't Boston commuters since the stop doesn't serve BON traffic), and if nothing else the Haverhill riders are paying for the privilege.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

The Boston-Portland-Auburn-Bethel-Sherbrook-Montreal routing via CSX and the SLR is probably the best and most practical Boston-Montreal alignment and it -COULD- work as an overnight service... but getting passenger service up and running would require a lot of RoW work and signaling work on a big stretch of the SLR (and CSX between Royal Junction and Auburn)....not to mention equipment procurement (Amtrak and VIA's fleets are stretched pretty thin right now) Is this meant to be a fully private venture or operated by Amtrak / Via Rail? To my knowledge neither have even acknowledged the possibility of a BON-Montreal service.

The "hotel train" has been discussed to death, if you want to look through the other threads where it's come up. It's pure vaporware that's been peddled for over 10 years now, resurfacing periodically in the news. Its finances/ridership projections/operations plan simply don't add up. At this point it smells of a scam.

 

[TC_zoid]

I think the biggest and most realistic train excitement for Maine is improving the Downeaster cars and extending it to Rockland. I rode a train from Zurich to Basel, Switzerland last July and did not want to get off. It was new, comfy, had various seating configurations, and view windows. Use some of these cars and do QR code food and beverage/beer delivery to your seat and now you have a FUN train that everyone will want to take.

 

[BosMaineiac]

Finally finish PTC installation to allow for more frequency and potentially speeds above 79 mph.

Do you know if the tracks can accommodate 90mph with minimal upgrades (other than PTC)? If so, would CSX want to allow trains traveling faster than 79? I know that the St Louis-CHI segment of 110mph had to be a completely separate track on the same ROW. Is that the minimum FRA requirement for Class 6?

1. These new double track segments would reduce conflicts with freight trains allow for a lot more schedule flexibility and allow The Downeaster to run 7 round trips per day and potentially even more if NNEPRA were to acquire a 4th trainset when the new "Airo" trainsets are delivered in 2026-28 (There are potential complications with that since the Brunswick layover facility can only accommodate 3 trainsets)
   

I think this could be solved by an upgrade of the CSX tracks to Lewiston and a new layover facility there for increased frequencies. Maybe the state could buy some of the current sets when they’re retired to run more trains between Lewiston/Brunswick and Wells. I feel these are semi-realistic proposals

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Do you know if the tracks can accommodate 90mph with minimal upgrades (other than PTC)? If so, would CSX want to allow trains traveling faster than 79? I know that the St Louis-CHI segment of 110mph had to be a completely separate track on the same ROW. Is that the minimum FRA requirement for Class 6?

The tracks are a little too curvy and climb a few too many hills to go faster than 79. That was the top historical speed, and it's the top feasible modern speed given the geometry you have to work with.

90 MPH is Class 5 track. 110 MPH is Class 6 track. There's only a few places in the country off the NEC that meet either standard, and they're all a lot straighter than the Western Route.

 

[Cosakita18]

The tracks are a little too curvy and climb a few too many hills to go faster than 79. That was the top historical speed, and it's the top feasible modern speed given the geometry you have to work with.

90 MPH is Class 5 track. 110 MPH is Class 6 track. There's only a few places in the country off the NEC that meet either standard, and they're all a lot straighter than the Western Route.

I once had a conversation with Patrcia Quinn and she offhandedly said that the only segments where the DE could --theoretically-- go above 79 are Arundel-Wells and potentially Wells-Rollinsford with a curve rebuild. But those are fairly short segments and there's not much benefit to going that extra 10 mph.

In terms of shaving time off of Portland-Boston...the new Airo trainsets arriving in a few years should cut a couple of minutes off of the trip with improved acceleration / deceleration.

 

[markhb]

Years ago, NNEPRA put in for an ERISA grant that had a laundry list of upgrades included; the end goal of that would have been to get the scheduled time POR-BON down to 2:15 which was felt to be low enough to be time-competitive with driving. They didn't get the grant at the time, so they've been pursuing things piecemeal; the current Wells project is a big part of that.

 

[BosMaineiac]

This thread doesn't see very much action but I thought this would be noteworthy:

Amtrak Downeaster ridership rebounds from pandemic slowdown

The 2023 total surpassed 500,000 passengers for the first time since 2019, indicating that the Boston-to-Brunswick service has mostly recovered from pandemic-related disruptions.

www.pressherald.com

Hopefully a sign of good things to come!

 

[thepianoperson]

In related news, the Brunswick-Rockland service looks like it’s starting up soon!

https://www.coastlinerexcursions.com/excursions.html

The wording of it seems like one round trip a day though, starting in Rockland which makes it not very useful for people coming from points south - the front page of the website says four daily introductory round trips though so not sure what the actual service will end up being.

 

[TC_zoid]

In related news, the Brunswick-Rockland service looks like it’s starting up soon!

https://www.coastlinerexcursions.com/excursions.html

The wording of it seems like one round trip a day though, starting in Rockland which makes it not very useful for people coming from points south - the front page of the website says four daily introductory round trips though so not sure what the actual service will end up being.

As a special service, this will flop and "derail" if it's the normal Amtrak cars (notice how they don't have pictures). It needs to be the ones with bigger windows and different seating options, or the way they do them for sightseeing trains in the Rockies or Switzerland. I don't want to be negative, but we all know that they have no real money to do this, and no money means nothing good. It sounds dreamy and romantic, but the reality is without the right train cars this won't work. Last summer I took a train from Zurich to Basel to see a friend (simply as a transportation option) and did not want to get off. The trains are new, modern, comfy, creatively configured, larger windows, etc.

 

[HenryAlan]

As a special service, this will flop and "derail" if it's the normal Amtrak cars (notice how they don't have pictures). It needs to be the ones with bigger windows and different seating options, or the way they do them for sightseeing trains in the Rockies or Switzerland. I don't want to be negative, but we all know that they have no real money to do this, and no money means nothing good. It sounds dreamy and romantic, but the reality is without the right train cars this won't work. Last summer I took a train from Zurich to Basel to see a friend (simply as a transportation option) and did not want to get off. The trains are new, modern, comfy, creatively configured, larger windows, etc.

They are actually using two Budliners. This type of service is tailor made for DMUs, and I suspect will work out well, given the incremental approach.

 

[Cosakita18]

As a special service, this will flop and "derail" if it's the normal Amtrak cars (notice how they don't have pictures). It needs to be the ones with bigger windows and different seating options, or the way they do them for sightseeing trains in the Rockies or Switzerland. I don't want to be negative, but we all know that they have no real money to do this, and no money means nothing good. It sounds dreamy and romantic, but the reality is without the right train cars this won't work. Last summer I took a train from Zurich to Basel to see a friend (simply as a transportation option) and did not want to get off. The trains are new, modern, comfy, creatively configured, larger windows, etc.

Those types of European cars don't meet crashworthiness standards set out by the Federal Railroad Administration. Midcoast Railservice couldn't operate that type of equipment even if they were able to import them. At least not without going through a lengthy review process.
The intention is to eventually run a scheduled service all the way from Rockland to Brunswick to directly connect with the Downeaster. They're starting with short excursions for crew training and insurance reasons. They're hoping to achieve something like a hybrid between 'excursion train" and "functional and scheduled passenger rail"

The RDC's have been refurbished and are actually quite modern and spacious on the inside. Midcoast did a great job not only making them ADA compliant but also making the interiors comfortable and attractive.

 

[Nexis4jersey]

Those types of European cars don't meet crashworthiness standards set out by the Federal Railroad Administration. Midcoast Railservice couldn't operate that type of equipment even if they were able to import them. At least not without going through a lengthy review process.
The intention is to eventually run a scheduled service all the way from Rockland to Brunswick to directly connect with the Downeaster. They're starting with short excursions for crew training and insurance reasons. They're hoping to achieve something like a hybrid between 'excursion train" and "functional and scheduled passenger rail"

The RDC's have been refurbished and are actually quite modern and spacious on the inside. Midcoast did a great job not only making them ADA compliant but also making the interiors comfortable and attractive.

The FRA reformed its regulations back in 2018 which has allowed numerous agencies and Amtrak to purchase lighter European trains. Amtrak California purchased a few Stadler Hydrogen trains to run on the San Joaquins Route starting in 2026. So the it would be possible for the Mid Coast to buy Stadler or another DMU train.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

The FRA reformed its regulations back in 2018 which has allowed numerous agencies and Amtrak to purchase lighter European trains. Amtrak California purchased a few Stadler Hydrogen trains to run on the San Joaquins Route starting in 2026. So the it would be possible for the Mid Coast to buy Stadler or another DMU train.

There are no FRA-compliant DMU's except for the ancient Budds that can board at *both* high-level and low-level platforms. The only high-level boarding domestic make, Nippon-Sharyo's used on S.M.A.R.T. in California and Union-Pearson Express in Toronto, has no door traps for boarding at low platforms because of the placement of components on the undercarriage...meaning they can't be used anywhere on the Rockland Branch. And Nippon-Sharyo has since exited the U.S. market, so if they're even for sale anymore they wouldn't qualify for Buy America. The various Stadlers in-use stateside are all for 8-inch platforms and can't interface at all with a full-high like Brunswick.

The All-Earth RDC's are literally the only piece of equipment that would work on a route like this, being ADA-compliant on the interior (unlike antique-condition RDC's) and able to board at full-highs or lows with their door traps.

 

[Nexis4jersey]

There are no FRA-compliant DMU's except for the ancient Budds that can board at *both* high-level and low-level platforms. The only high-level boarding domestic make, Nippon-Sharyo's used on S.M.A.R.T. in California and Union-Pearson Express in Toronto, has no door traps for boarding at low platforms because of the placement of components on the undercarriage...meaning they can't be used anywhere on the Rockland Branch. And Nippon-Sharyo has since exited the U.S. market, so if they're even for sale anymore they wouldn't qualify for Buy America. The various Stadlers in-use stateside are all for 8-inch platforms and can't interface at all with a full-high like Brunswick.

The All-Earth RDC's are literally the only piece of equipment that would work on a route like this, being ADA-compliant on the interior (unlike antique-condition RDC's) and able to board at full-highs or lows with their door traps.

You can have them make a high level DMU...low level platforms should be phased out anyway due to not being ADA complaint.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

You can have them make a high level DMU...low level platforms should be phased out anyway due to not being ADA complaint.

Both the intricacies of importing a brand-new make with design changes and/or implementing full-high or mini-high platforms on the Rockland Branch cost a wad of $$$$ that instantaneously prices this service out of ever happening. It's a self-own, not a solution.

This service will be fully ADA-compliant by virtue of having portable lifts stocked at all the Rockland Branch stations...like Amtrak does at all low-platform stations to achieve ADA compliance with high-boarding equipment. No, it's not an ideal solution. They can't afford ideal solutions. So they shoot for the minimalist legal one.

 

[TC_zoid]

I love trains. Last summer I was on one from Zurich to Basel, Switzerland, and did not want to get off. Two weeks ago, I landed at Logan and decided to take the Downeaster up to Portland, after a stop downtown. It was a Saturday morning and there was only one seat left on the entire train--business class. It was not four seats across but three (one, then the aisle, then two). It was nice and roomy, though dated, and an attendant was able to take food orders, though the food car was only a few steps away. Question. Why can't they have some cars with bigger windows? I had no problem paying another $10 for business class. If I was in a car like these (see pics), I'd go up another $10, to $40 or a bit more each way. It's worth it. They just have to be a little creative with the luggage space in the design. Most riders do not have a large suitcase. They use the Concord Coach bus. The Downeaster with a few cars like these (see pics) would become even more popular. They can still keep the plebeian ones. We get it. Just add a bit more variety, that's all.

 

[mainejeff]

They cater to the peasants.....it would be nice if they threw the rest of us a bone.

 

[RandomWalk]

FRA regulations probably make cars like that impossible to build in the US.

 

[BosMaineiac]

I love trains. Last summer I was on one from Zurich to Basel, Switzerland, and did not want to get off. Two weeks ago, I landed at Logan and decided to take the Downeaster up to Portland, after a stop downtown. It was a Saturday morning and there was only one seat left on the entire train--business class. It was not four seats across but three (one, then the aisle, then two). It was nice and roomy, though dated, and an attendant was able to take food orders, though the food car was only a few steps away. Question. Why can't they have some cars with bigger windows? I had no problem paying another $10 for business class. If I was in a car like these (see pics), I'd go up another $10, to $40 or a bit more each way. It's worth it. They just have to be a little creative with the luggage space in the design. Most riders do not have a large suitcase. They use the Concord Coach bus. The Downeaster with a few cars like these (see pics) would become even more popular. They can still keep the plebeian ones. We get it. Just add a bit more variety, that's all.

View attachment 43791View attachment 43792View attachment 43793

The new Amtrak passenger trains coming soon to the Downeaster will at least have larger windows than the current ones. Although I don’t believe Amtrak has any single-deck view cars, they do have a superliner view car on western routes, which wouldn’t be compatible with DE route due to high level platforms.

This is what the new passenger car looks like, and an interior rendering:

And the interior of a Superliner Sightseer: