Potential Soccer Stadium | Portland peninsula

lunardinosaur said:
So with the improvements going ahead at Fitzpatrick, does that mean the possibility of a new stadium on the Back Cove is dead? Or is that something that could still happen down the line?
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We would 100% still be open. Friends of Casco Bay killed it. Not sure we could overcome that kind of resistance unless we had some real supporters and unwavering support of the City. ~ C
 
Costello Field House at USM in Gorham has an indoor 200 meter track and seats 750. This facility is used continuously for several sports, and year-round, of course. It was built in 1998 for $5.5 million and well worth the spend. The problem I have with an outdoor soccer stadium in Maine, or almost anywhere else (especially in Houston, as the one there is only really used from October to May due to its excessive temperatures, humidity, and rainfall), is the amount of de facto usability. Maine's outdoor stadiums are only realistically accessible from May to October, or when considering the fan comfort experience. That would make a stadium in Maine usable for about 40% of the year when considering weather conditions. I've noticed that soccer focused stadiums around the country (I think all are outdoors) lie in a similar usage percentage, except for a few in Southern California. If other uses and profit models for the facility are created with a year-round design, and with dynamic food and drink areas at the ends set at a higher elevation (proven for today's customers), an enclosed and natural light filled stadium is the best way to go when considering not just use, but long-term profit. Many of these soccer focused stadiums are promoted and built with much hoopla, but when it settles, the de facto fan experience with weak food and drink experiences and sitting out under the hot sun, or shivering in the cold, is not worth the ticket price. I'd be more ambitious with this idea. Big money is not hard to find. Simply create multiple uses and revenue models and it will be easier to get. The Portland area has excellent forecasted growth. People want to come here to live or vacation.

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On a more prominent soccer scale, ownership for the Revolution is looking for a new home. The Encore/Wynn bought the land next door in which the power plant is on ($600 million?), and they and Pats owner Robert Kraft want to build an outdoor stadium that seats 25,000 (and another hotel). They should add a retractable roof for year-round use, like many stadiums have now. But it looks like the zoning is the issue. That power plant is perhaps the biggest eyesore in Boston, and next door is the beautiful and modern Encore Hotel and casino. Perhaps more palms need to be greased. Hey, it's Boston. Lol.

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All I know about a soccer stadium down there is from the thread in the Boston projects section here, but at one time Kraft was looking at property near the Amtrak facility on Southampton St. for a soccer stadium. But per Wikipedia, the power plant is slated to shut down completely by June 1. I'm not sure what happens with the giant scrap yard next door, though.
 
Dr. StrangeHat said:
My original thought was perhaps the UNE Bishop Street property, but being on the peninsula, my guesses would be Back Cove Park or the field in Kennedy Park, as others noted above.
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Just throwing this idea from 2020 back out there - what about the UNE Bishop Street property (former Pike property)? There's plenty of space, easy access to the ME Turnpike, and you could even run trolleys along existing rail from various locations throughout the city and neighboring communities right to the stadium. It's bordered by a cemetery and mostly industrial/commercial properties. Sure, it's not close to being in-town as Fitzpatrick or Back Cove Park, but at least it's still within Portland proper. Perhaps some sort of deal could be struck with UNE and USM for co-utilization of the stadium?

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I like it. It's a good idea. The commercial industrial area is certainly more amenable to a big build. But I like the Fitzpatrick Stadium location more because of the amount of parking available at USM, and the new dorms which can be used for visiting teams and leagues in the summer. Also, it's within walking distance of the bus and train stations. If UNE Portland was a sports focused school, I would say let's do it. But the Biddeford campus is the focus for sports. They have done a GREAT job in building up their programs.
 
The most recent design for the Revolution, cleverly Photoshopped next to the Encore (there is serious talk of this happening). It's for 25,000 and no roof. It's proposed by Patriots owner Robert Kraft, and he can't find some money to put a retractable roof on this? Houston, Texas has two retractable roof stadiums, one for the Astros and one for the Texans because it's *brutally* hot there in the summer. They also have an outdoor soccer stadium, and only masochists go during the games from June to September. Are retractable roof stadiums really that prohibitively expensive? Double it to 50,000 and now it's 30,000 (35 with standees on the field) more than TD Garden for a concert, year-round. Not sure if you've been noticing, but the BIG music acts won't book venues with under 50,000 in capacity. Taylor Swift was at Gilette this summer, and it was nearly washed out with a massive T-storm. Why can't New England have an indoor stadium? Without, it means no BIG acts for eight months of the year, and then during the four months there are, crossing our fingers it doesn't rain. Give the Portland stadium 30,000 seats (35,000 including standees on the field) and a retractable roof, and now you have a venue theoretically more profitable than what is in Boston, for 8 months of the year. 3 million people live within a 2-hour drive of Portland. Take note: bigger city transplants in Portland think it's a suburb of Boston.

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The one time I went to a Taylor Swift concert at Gillette, she actually remarked on a history of rain at her Foxboro shows.
 
If you were to build even a 25k stadium in Portland it would probably be off the penisula. Where doea the city have 5 acres of undeveloped land? Maybe the midtown site is big enough? Then you also have to worry about the drainage and water levels.Parking becomes a factor. Althouhh we know Portland loves their parkong garages. Also as a main tenant, 25k is geared for a MLS franchise than a minor league team. I was hoping with renovation to Fitzy maybe UMaine would agree to one home game year in Portland or every other year. Similar to the Razorbacks playing a home game in Little Rock each season. The UNH Maine game would probably draw a better crowd in Portland than Orono. College football is changing quickly and the trickle down effect is going to impact UMaine at some point. Glad to see they will be upgrading Alfond stadium.
 
Seanflynn78 said:
If you were to build even a 25k stadium in Portland it would probably be off the penisula. Where doea the city have 5 acres of undeveloped land? Maybe the midtown site is big enough? Then you also have to worry about the drainage and water levels.Parking becomes a factor. Althouhh we know Portland loves their parkong garages. Also as a main tenant, 25k is geared for a MLS franchise than a minor league team. I was hoping with renovation to Fitzy maybe UMaine would agree to one home game year in Portland or every other year. Similar to the Razorbacks playing a home game in Little Rock each season. The UNH Maine game would probably draw a better crowd in Portland than Orono. College football is changing quickly and the trickle down effect is going to impact UMaine at some point. Glad to see they will be upgrading Alfond stadium.
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Adding seating all the way around at the current Fitzpatrick would nearly double it to 15,000. Add a deck and rotate it a bit, to double that (30,000). Parking for 2,000 cars could be underground. Look at Fenway. It's 40,000 fans and the park is jammed in tightly with no surface lots. USM has parking for 1,800 in garages, and maybe 1,000 could be used in the Maine Med garage on weekends. Shuttle service from the train and bus stations would help too (though it's an easy walk on a nice day). Advertise discounts with car rideshares and buses from the Maine Mall parking lots. People will figure out a way if you help them to. Again, the half goal here is an enclosed place for concerts that can seat up to 30,000. There is nothing like this in all of New England and the New York City area, or outside for the other 6 months of the year. So, there are no indoor concerts in the northeast in the wintertime with more than 20,000 in attendance. Syracuse, NY is the exception (49,000), but that's just too far up there. Portland is two hours from 3 million people, and about 4 hours from 6 million. And the building doesn't need to be a retractable roof type. If the ends don't have a second deck, and they should not, massively tall windows (partly sliding to open for fresh air) will allow light to help it feel like it's outdoors. That and the roof being translucent white to let in light. Yes, it will cost money. But the profit model for the longer term justifies it. Just soccer and outdoors will be like Thompson's Point--few and far between, and non-existent for the other 6 months.
 
I think that, if the concert business in the winter were that big of a deal, Bob Kraft would have been looking at a roof on Gillette. Or the Giants in the Meadowlands.
Plus, from what I've read in the Boston stadium thread, part of the culture in soccer is to have a smaller, right-sized stadium that's fully packed and feels like the fans are right on top of the field. That's part of why Kraft wants a new place for the Revs; it apparently doesn't feel right playing in the Razor with the third level unsold and looming, empty. So overbuilding to achieve a weird, in-between capacity of 30k, at the expense of the immediate proposal (soccer), doesn't seem prudent at this juncture. To me, anyway.
 
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markhb said:
I think that, if the concert business in the winter were that big of a deal, Bob Kraft would have been looking at a roof on Gillette. Or the Giants in the Meadowlands.
Plus, from what I've read in the Boston stadium thread, part of the culture in soccer is to have a smaller, right-sized stadium that's fully packed and feels like the fans are right on top of the field. That's part of why Kraft wants a new place for the Revs; it apparently doesn't feel right playing in the Razor with the third level unsold and looming, empty. So overbuilding to achieve a weird, in-between capacity of 30k, at the expense of the immediate proposal (soccer), doesn't seem prudent at this juncture. To me, anyway.
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Gillette was built in 2002 and MetLife in Jersey started construction in 2007, and so both were before the smart phone, so nothing to really compare from that era. Now, there are many new indoor stadiums and they are filling over 50,000 seats for the bigger music acts (and not just music). It's ALL about touring for music acts because their big income chunk is gone from the once highly profitable sales of downloads and CDs. (Streaming profits do not factor in enough.) I work in a related industry and saw the two Taylor Swift concerts (72,000 capacity) in Houston bring in 800K on just one specialty cocktail! It's about the ticket price, the number of seats, the merchandise selections, and the food and drink experience. A small outdoor soccer stadium in Portland will eventually lose much of its appeal. But if they build substantial food and drink options in an exciting layout it could do okay, but I doubt that will happen. If Portland built something indoors with a 30,000 capacity and dynamic and almost cutting-edge ways to experience food and drink, it would pull attendees from Boston. A larger floor or field as compared to a hockey rink size also means more options for different kinds of acts. And many from Boston come up for the day now anyway, for the food and drink scenes in Portland. Just tag on a concert or another event.
 
Long time lurker and first time poster--With regards to city size, I think it's pretty indictive to look across the pond to Trondheim, Norway for a comparison--similar metropolitan population, cold weather, college town, home to Rosenborg BK, Norway's most successful club. Their home turf, the Lerkendal Stadion, began as a humble pitch with a track, much like the Fitzpatrick today. Grand stand was gradually added to the stadium, and a major overhaul was done alongside with the club qualifying for UEFA in 1999. The stadium now seats 21,000+ even when the Eliteserien (Norway's super league) boasts a pretty limited business upside.
 
qianlixiaorob said:
Long time lurker and first time poster--With regards to city size, I think it's pretty indictive to look across the pond to Trondheim, Norway for a comparison--similar metropolitan population, cold weather, college town, home to Rosenborg BK, Norway's most successful club. Their home turf, the Lerkendal Stadion, began as a humble pitch with a track, much like the Fitzpatrick today. Grand stand was gradually added to the stadium, and a major overhaul was done alongside with the club qualifying for UEFA in 1999. The stadium now seats 21,000+ even when the Eliteserien (Norway's super league) boasts a pretty limited business upside.
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Sorry, but there is nothing comparative here. Portland is an easy two-hour drive or train ride from Boston, a metropolis with over 5 million people. Boston is or soon will be, the most important city in the world for education and tech. I could list some things that are happening here, but there are too many and I don't have the time. And isn't that part of Norway somewhat dark for half the year? (Portland is at the 43rd degree parallel, and Trondheim is at the 63rd. Portland is even with the French Riviera. Look it up.).
 
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TC_zoid said:
Sorry, but there is nothing comparative here. Portland is an easy two-hour drive or train ride from Boston, a metropolis with over 5 million people. Boston is or soon will be, the most important city in the world for education and tech. I could list some things that are happening here, but there are too many and I don't have the time. And isn't that part of Norway somewhat dark for half the year? (Portland is at the 43rd degree parallel, and Trondheim is at the 63rd. Portland is even with the French Riviera. Look it up.).
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In terms of climate, Trondheim is surprisingly not as cold (especially in winter seasons). Norway is blessed with the Norwegian current, which transports relatively warm and saline water to coastal towns in the country. It's got a pretty similar weather profile in comparison with that of Portland. Sure there's significantly less sun in the winter but on avg Trondheim gets some five hours of sun, so it's not completely dark. Also, I suppose most games are held at night hours.

On the point about Boston--I don't really think it has anything to do with proximity to Boston--The minor league team just has to grow their fanbase locally and it's very hard to peel Bostonians away from the Revs and instead drive up/show up for FC Portland.

The comparison drawn here is meant to present a more realistic picture of how a minor league soccer team may grow into. After all, filling a 20k-capacity stadium is no small feat.
 
qianlixiaorob said:
In terms of climate, Trondheim is surprisingly not as cold (especially in winter seasons). Norway is blessed with the Norwegian current, which transports relatively warm and saline water to coastal towns in the country. It's got a pretty similar weather profile in comparison with that of Portland. Sure there's significantly less sun in the winter but on avg Trondheim gets some five hours of sun, so it's not completely dark. Also, I suppose most games are held at night hours.

On the point about Boston--I don't really think it has anything to do with proximity to Boston--The minor league team just has to grow their fanbase locally and it's very hard to peel Bostonians away from the Revs and instead drive up/show up for FC Portland.

The comparison drawn here is meant to present a more realistic picture of how a minor league soccer team may grow into. After all, filling a 20k-capacity stadium is no small feat.
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Portland has twice the population of this city, or if you use the true measure of a city's size (metro area). Otherwise, El Paso, Texas is bigger than Boston and twice as big as Miami. And many or some from Boston come up to Portland to watch the Seadogs (and now Maine Celtics), or the more ardent of fans do, that is (it's a who's who of present and former Red Sox stars who came up through Portland). Not included in the mix are the half million or more in Southern New Hampshire, of whom are roughly an hour's drive away. So now, it's just over an hour to Portland with nearly one million people to pull from. In the summer OOB can grow to 100,000 during the day. Add another 20,000 or more for day trippers and hotel guests for Portland. How is all of that comparative to a remote city in Norway, one that is more than a 6-hour drive from Oslo?

This constantly happens with Portland. Its population is looked up and indicates 68,000, so it's then compared with every other city of that size. Even the feature writers for the NY Times do or have done this ("A little town by the sea." Huh? You mean like Camden?). Hey, I had to live in midtown Manhattan the last 5 years for work. I've got a good perspective on the comparisons for this now. Portland has changed. It's no longer primarily the provincial mindset it once was. Many new residents have moved here. It changes the characteristics substantially. Simply go walk around and talk with the people who work at the bars and restaurants in Portland... "Hey, anyone interesting come in lately?"... "Yes, there was. Three Wall Street bankers came in for dinner and they were talking about buying an island" (credit to PV). I always do this. The owner of Hardshore Distilling (in his 30s and from Brooklyn) told me he thinks Portland is a suburb of Boston. You will be surprised at how many new and younger residents have moved to Portland. Go to Papi. Go to Twelve. Celebrities stop by too (Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Anna Kendrick, and Taylor Swift have).
 
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TC_zoid said:
Portland has twice the population of this city, or if you use the true measure of a city's size (metro area). Otherwise, El Paso, Texas is bigger than Boston and twice as big as Miami. And many or some from Boston come up to Portland to watch the Seadogs (and now Maine Celtics), or the more ardent of fans do, that is (it's a who's who of present and former Red Sox stars who came up through Portland). Not included in the mix are the half million or more in Southern New Hampshire, of whom are roughly an hour's drive away. So now, it's just over an hour to Portland with nearly one million people to pull from. In the summer OOB can grow to 100,000 during the day. Add another 20,000 or more for day trippers and hotel guests for Portland. How is all of that comparative to a remote city in Norway, one that is more than a 6-hour drive from Oslo?

This constantly happens with Portland. Its population is looked up and indicates 68,000, so it's then compared with every other city of that size. Even the feature writers for the NY Times do or have done this ("A little town by the sea." Huh? You mean like Camden?). Hey, I had to live in midtown Manhattan the last 5 years for work. I've got a good perspective on the comparisons for this now. Portland has changed. It's no longer primarily the provincial mindset it once was. Many new residents have moved here. It changes the characteristics substantially. Simply go walk around and talk with the people who work at the bars and restaurants in Portland... "Hey, anyone interesting come in lately?"... "Yes, there was. Three Wall Street bankers came in for dinner and they were talking about buying an island" (credit to PV). I always do this. The owner of Hardshore Distilling (in his 30s and from Brooklyn) told me he thinks Portland is a suburb of Boston. You will be surprised at how many new and younger residents have moved to Portland. Go to Papi. Go to Twelve. Celebrities stop by too (Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Anna Kendrick, and Taylor Swift have).
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Chill chill...I'm just presenting a realistic path for a minor league soccer team to grow, so I don't see what the argument is here. Maybe the word "comparable" struck a nerve? If so then I apologize. I'm most definitely not doubting about the potential of growth in Portland. Again, I'm not comparing Portland to some remote town in the nordics. Trondheim is the third largest city in arguably one of the richest countries in the world. The city is also a major fishing/manufacturing hub with about 100k within its city boundaries, 1/5 of which are students. That team (Rosenborg BK), by the way, has been THE best professional team out of that country, with Champions League and UEFA appearances.

After all, I am still wishing the best for FC Portland. See, if a USL team can fill a 20k-capacity stadium, I'd consider that to be a job well done, and it'd definitely justify a proper stadium being built, which is what this thread is all about.
 
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This isn't the craziest idea I've pitched on ArchBoston over the years, but it might be close. Hear me out: build the stadium at the Maine Mall, replacing the Sears as a primary anchor.

Why I think this isn't the craziest idea:
  • The mall is already served by five bus routes:
    • Two from GP Metro, serving to and from Portland and Westbrook;
    • Two from South Portland Bus; and
    • One from the Biddeford-Saco-OOB Transit.
  • More parking than the stadium could ever need.
  • Ample access from primary arteries, including:
    • Direct access from I-295 South.
    • Quick access from I-95.
    • Access from Payne Road, Main Mall Road, Main Street SoPo via connector, Running Hill Road, Gorham Road, Cummings Road/Spring Street, etc.
  • No store of similar size will ever fill that Sears space again, so it removes what is quickly becoming an area of blight in the mall area.
  • Likely ability to gain investment from Brookfield Properties, the owner of the Maine Mall, given the sheer return they'd see from gains in foot traffic and additional mall area development as a result of the stadium.
  • Thirteen hotels within 1 mile and another four hotels within 2 miles.
  • Plenty of pre and post-game food and drink options.
  • Ability to use the stadium for concerts in the off-season with minimal noise impact to nearby residential areas.
  • Other year-round uses would boost mall and mall-area usage.
Yes, I know this is not in Portland proper or anywhere near downtown Portland, but if we're being realistic, Fitzpatrick may not be a viable long-term solution given that removal of the track may not be an option. There's really no other space in Portland that is big enough to support a soccer stadium, other than maybe that UNE property I mentioned above. This could give new life to the mall and kick-start some more non-retail development to replace all that asphalt and concrete.

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I think the question there is, how much cash is available for acquisition of the property? Brookfield and the rest of the Mall may stand to benefit, but the actual parcel (including On the Border) is owned by ESL Investments, the hedge fund that owns Sears, and the city valuation is roughly $8.6 million.

OTOH, judging from the tax map, it does have its own parking:
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